Where does the US go from here?

[more 825]

15 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

send via messenger

video has been taken down, but is as I said she didn't even have and arm or leg through the door. Police were within centimeters of her, it was a crowded corridor/stairwell...one of the police standing by her could have quite easily been killed by the same shot

Im truly shocked that people here seem to be condoning her death....At least now when a criminal gets shot in America I know who here will be fine with it...imagine a cop shooting a crook dead from behind a closed door.....

Amazing...

Edited January 7 by more

[-- AJ -- 551]

 

 

40 minutes ago, more said:

You haven't answered the question Mike-do you condone the shooting of unarmed protestors?

Put yourself in the shoes of the person who shot her.  It sounds like theres a riot outside.  One or more people are breaking down a door. You have absolutely no idea what their intentions are or even if they are armed or not.  Your job is to protect those people in the building including the Vice-President of the United States.  What do you do?

If you're still thinking...its too late.  

Its easy to come up with a decision after the event but when you've got milliseconds to react its a different thing altogether.

[Mr Tinman 302]

I am not nor, will I ever be, OK with someone being shot for "no reason"

The person that shot her obviously thought she WAS a clear and present danger.

You admitted that "they weren't even half way through it" and since you have seen the video you know that she could have easily be seen as a clear and present danger.

Maybe if they waited till she was all the way through the situation could have been avoided. Or it could have escalated. You cant be any more certain than I can.

 

All I know is this.

She was breaking the law by being there, whoever shot her thought that they had reason to fear her intentions and there is no way they could have known if she was armed or not, and in a country where guns outnumber people that is a chance I wouldn't want to take.

Personal responsibility . She refused to take responsibility for her actions and paid the ultimate price.

[more 825]

Just now, -- AJ -- said:

 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of the person who shot her.  It sounds like theres a riot outside.  One or more people are breaking down a door. You have absolutely no idea what their intentions are or even if they are armed or not.  Your job is to protect those people in the building including the Vice-President of the United States.  What do you do?

If you're still thinking...its too late.  

Its easy to come up with a decision after the event but when you've got milliseconds to react its a different thing altogether.

 

I agree in part in times of confrontation that police are normally involved in it can be a matter of milliseconds between life and death, hence why people need to be mindful of this when looking at police shootings.

However in this case the person wasnt even in the room, heck they were trying to get through  the door, a barricaded door. The person panicked and shot someone dead.

I swear some of the people who are arguing with me in this thread that it was o.k to shoot the lady are the same ones who have argued with me in the past how bad it is that police shoot criminals... 

[BarryBevan 1,559]

11 minutes ago, more said:

video has been taken down, but is as I said she didn't even have and arm or leg through the door. Police were within centimeters of her, it was a crowded corridor/stairwell...one of the police standing by her could have quite easily been killed by the same shot

Im truly shocked that people here seem to be condoning her death....At least now when a criminal gets shot in America I know who here will be fine with it...imagine a cop shooting a crook dead from behind a closed door.....

Amazing...

imagine a cop shooting a crook dead from behind a closed door.....

This scenarios some how equals what happened today.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/video-shows-moment-gun-is-fired-inside-capitol-as-rioters-breach-building-98986053872

[more 825]

1 minute ago, Mr Tinman said:

I am not nor, will I ever be, OK with someone being shot for "no reason"

The person that shot her obviously thought she WAS a clear and present danger.

You admitted that "they weren't even half way through it" and since you have seen the video you know that she could have easily be seen as a clear and present danger.

Maybe if they waited till she was all the way through the situation could have been avoided. Or it could have escalated. You cant be any more certain than I can.

 

All I know is this.

She was breaking the law by being there, whoever shot her thought that they had reason to fear her intentions and there is no way they could have known if she was armed or not, and in a country where guns outnumber people that is a chance I wouldn't want to take.

Personal responsibility . She refused to take responsibility for her actions and paid the ultimate price.

She didn't pose a immediate danger-unless she was some kind of ninja master who could fall through the gap and do a flying summersault onto her feet whilst also pulling out a gun and shooting everyone in the room...

You can spin this all you like but in a normal situation of a break and enter if a crook was on the other side and a cop shot through the door with no knowledge of whether they were even armed they would most likely be charged with some degree of murder/manslaughter.

But its o.k, you have made it clear that its fine to shot someone dead if you think they present a danger.

[Mr Tinman 302]

And just so we're clear.

Ask anyone of the regulars here about my political leanings.

They are definitely well and truly right of centre.

But this whole demented saga is not about left-wing/right-wing, its about the absolute delusion of Trump and his supporters.

Its about his subversion of American democracy to feed his deflated ego and the effect this will have on geopolitical agendas the world over for years to come .

He has not only f**ked over America, but the free world as we know it. Putin and Xi Jinping must be throwing one hell of a party tonight.

[BarryBevan 1,559]

5 minutes ago, more said:

 

I agree in part in times of confrontation that police are normally involved in it can be a matter of milliseconds between life and death, hence why people need to be mindful of this when looking at police shootings.

However in this case the person wasnt even in the room, heck they were trying to get through  the door, a barricaded door. The person panicked and shot someone dead.

I swear some of the people who are arguing with me in this thread that it was o.k to shoot the lady are the same ones who have argued with me in the past how bad it is that police shoot criminals... 

You are aware there is a tri forum and this place is principally for triathlon talk. You and your friend seem only to like agitating in the sand box

[Mr Tinman 302]

BarryBevans linked video totally justifies the shooting in my mind

Clear and present danger without a doubt

[Mike Del 487]

19 minutes ago, more said:

 

But Im glad you and Mike have now cleared things up that police are free to shoot people irrespective of whether they are armed so long as they think they represent a danger...even when there is a barricaded door separating them.

 

I've spent half my life trying to preserve life. How dare you make a claim like that, what do you base that on? I made no judgement at all on the woman or the police, my only comment about Ashli Babbit was to reply to AJ and tell him she was trying to get to officials on the other side of the door. Your constant attempt to troll people and cause arguments and fights on this site is childish and unintelligent and I pity you. I've asked you several times not to make up sh#t about me here. 

  

[Bored@work 4,125]

11 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of the person who shot her.  It sounds like theres a riot outside.  One or more people are breaking down a door. You have absolutely no idea what their intentions are or even if they are armed or not.  Your job is to protect those people in the building including the Vice-President of the United States.  What do you do?

If you're still thinking...its too late.  

Its easy to come up with a decision after the event but when you've got milliseconds to react its a different thing altogether.

I doubt the person had the chance to stop & think about it. It would have come down to muscle memory & years of training.

You simply  don’t have the luxury to stop & think about it. 
 

[more 825]

1 minute ago, BarryBevan said:

imagine a cop shooting a crook dead from behind a closed door.....

This scenarios some how equals what happened today.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/video-shows-moment-gun-is-fired-inside-capitol-as-rioters-breach-building-98986053872

Thanks-so she is climbing through, arms holding on too the door, not reaching for a weapon or holding a weapon and gets shot dead.

And you think this is fine.

And you think this would have been fine if this happened in Portland?

Crazy...

 

[more 825]

2 minutes ago, Mr Tinman said:

BarryBevans linked video totally justifies the shooting in my mind

Clear and present danger without a doubt

ok interesting. I wonder what a court would say about you shooting someone dead breaking into your house as they climbed through a window..?

[Mr Tinman 302]

Peace out peeps

My dinner is ready and I deal with enough crazy in my life on a day to day basis that it sometimes makes me question why Im even here

I dont need anymore

 

[Mr Tinman 302]

1 minute ago, more said:

ok interesting. I wonder what a court would say about you shooting someone dead breaking into your house as they climbed through a window..?

In Australia, Im sure they would be rather unimpressed.

In America, it would be totally justified self defence

Context is a wonderful thing, even if you repeatedly choose to ignore it.

[more 825]

3 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

I doubt the person had the chance to stop & think about it. It would have come down to muscle memory & years of training.

You simply  don’t have the luxury to stop & think about it. 
 

Yes, which is why the whole Police shooting issue in America is a difficult one. They have split second decisions to decide if a motorist is reaching for a gun or a smoke...

 

[BarryBevan 1,559]

1 minute ago, more said:

Thanks-so she is climbing through, arms holding on too the door, not reaching for a weapon or holding a weapon and gets shot dead.

And you think this is fine.

And you think this would have been fine if this happened in Portland?

Crazy...

 

Maybe take a step back and clam a bit, are you seriously taking today as the day to make stand about Police Shootings in the USA after everything you have posted.

This scenarios was nothing like any of the other and recent killings. We had the Capitol Police not exactly the elite Special ops people trying to not get killed and delay and wild out of control mob that had done something unprecedented. Take a look at the video of the poor Black cop trying to get out in one piece from the mob.

Judging from the events and reports, the Capitol cops did what they could while the Secret Service got the Officials to the lock down and then got ready to protect. Interestingly the wild mob at that point thought maybe we don't want to go any further as those are secret service people who will shoot us if we keep coming through.

 

[Peter 4,248]

8 minutes ago, more said:

Thanks-so she is climbing through, arms holding on too the door, not reaching for a weapon or holding a weapon and gets shot dead.

And you think this is fine.

And you think this would have been fine if this happened in Portland?

Crazy...

 

Both sides need to let this go as you’ll never agree.  
 

just agree to disagree or there will be 5g pages of the identical posts 

[BarryBevan 1,559]

9 minutes ago, more said:

Thanks-so she is climbing through, arms holding on too the door, not reaching for a weapon or holding a weapon and gets shot dead.

And you think this is fine.

And you think this would have been fine if this happened in Portland?

Crazy...

 

This is not the same scenario, there is a violent mob in the Capitol, gun shots, tear gas, pipe bombs and they are smashing the window tyring to get to the members of congress.

You have come back only for this thread, either you think this is a politics or world matters forums or you are trolling

[more 825]

19 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Maybe take a step back and clam a bit, are you seriously taking today as the day to make stand about Police Shootings in the USA after everything you have posted.

This scenarios was nothing like any of the other and recent killings. We had the Capitol Police not exactly the elite Special ops people trying to not get killed and delay and wild out of control mob that had done something unprecedented. Take a look at the video of the poor Black cop trying to get out in one piece from the mob.

Judging from the events and reports, the Capitol cops did what they could while the Secret Service got the Officials to the lock down and then got ready to protect. Interestingly the wild mob at that point thought maybe we don't want to go any further as those are secret service people who will shoot us if we keep coming through.

 

I haven't seen any people getting bashed by mobs-maybe there were ? I saw plenty of people getting bashed by mobs in Portland. People have posted that the police were taking selfies with the protestors so it doesn't seem like they were all that scared?

The only point Im trying to make people peculiar tendency to excuse/or argue against an action depending on their bias. If this was during the Portland protests and a black person was trying to break into a building and was shot like that the whole response would be completely different.

Where as because it was a white Trump supporter everyone is mehhh she deserved it...

Edited January 7 by more

[Peter 4,248]

4 dead. 
 

guessing 4 families that wish they never went to protest. Not sure of if cops Shit them all or what.  I’m paywall blocked. 
 

[Prince 891]

5 minutes ago, Peter said:

4 dead. 
 

I’m paywall blocked. 
 

Are you sure you’re only blocked because you won’t pay ? 🤣

Edited January 7 by Prince

[more 825]

6 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

This is not the same scenario, there is a violent mob in the Capitol, gun shots, tear gas, pipe bombs and they are smashing the window tyring to get to the members of congress.

You have come back only for this thread, either you think this is a politics or world matters forums or you are trolling

How is it a different scenario? Portland had armed protestors, gun shots, tear gas, smashing windows, protestors storming federal buildings etc...? They even broke into police stations in Portland...

The same people who defended the Portland riots and abhorred the 'violent' police response are conspicuously now condoning a un armed lady being shot dead...I just find it fascinating...

[Peter 4,248]

5 minutes ago, Prince said:

Are you sure you’re only blocked because you won’t pay ? 🤣

Why would I bother paying for a paper that’s stories are always partly wrong. 
 

id almost tip that headline is not true.  Probably someone had a heart attack and its been Sold like someone else was shot 

[truck 538]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

id almost tip that headline is not true.  Probably someone had a heart attack and its been Sold like someone else was shot 

The other 3 are said to have had personal medical emergencies. Guessing that is more than likely heart related. 

[Peter 4,248]

[Bosco 233]

Barry - get back to Trichat, don’t get sucked back in..........

[Diamonds 472]

35 minutes ago, more said:

How is it a different scenario? 

I just watched the footage on 7 news.

Plenty of backpedaling Capitol Police unable to stop the mob at various thresholds from outside the building all the way inside and up stairs until the final standoff at the chamber doors.  Clear directions given.

~ 5 police at the final barrier behind furniture barricade with an angry mob multiplying by the minute outside ignoring clear directions.  Cowering, unarmed people inside chamber.  Clear, non compliant mob, nowhere to go.  Those shots which led to the death stopped the mob and threat in their tracks.   I'd be happy with the police response here, let alone America.  They had retreated as far as possible, the mob chose to push on despite repeated warnings and having their firearms levelled at the mob at that final barricade.

The test is the level of fear incited by that mob in those people (police and cowering civvies), not whether you saw her with a weapon.  That fear is not dependent on her armed status, but the fear and potential threat of the mob she was a part of.

The police did well to show restraint to the point they did.

Edited January 7 by Diamonds
typo

[Diamonds 472]

Further, you can bet your bottom dollar those cops did not want to fire.  Even money bet that it would be returned by the mob, so the fact they did fire means sh1t got real desperate. 

Lucky for them the mob sobered up and didn't jack up.

Edited January 7 by Diamonds

[more 825]

2 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

I just watched the footage on 7 news.

Plenty of backpedaling Capitol Police unable to stop the mob at various thresholds from outside the building all the way inside and up stairs until the final standoff at the chamber doors.  Clear directions given.

~ 5 police at the final barrier behind furniture barricade with an angry mob multiplying by the minute outside ignoring clear directions.  Cowering, unarmed people inside chamber.  Clear, non compliant mob, nowhere to go.  Those shots which led to the death stopped the mob and threat in their tracks.   I'd be happy with the police response here, let alone America.  They had retreated as far as possible, the mob chose to push on despite repeated warnings and having their firearms levelled at the mob at that final barricade.

The test is the level of fear incited by that mob in those people (police and cowering civvies), not whether you saw her with a weapon.  That fear is not dependent on her armed status, but the fear and potential threat of the mob she was a part of.

The police did well to show restraint to the point they did.

If fear is the baseline for self defense then why is that young kid who shot and killed a armed protestor in Portland I think it was in jail? He was on the ground in fear of his life and fired and is now in prison?

[Peter 4,248]

The general public seem to have no sympathy. 
 

1100 have no sympathy 

200 do 

[Diamonds 472]

2 minutes ago, more said:

If fear is the baseline for self defense then why is that young kid who shot and killed a armed protestor in Portland I think it was in jail? He was on the ground in fear of his life and fired and is now in prison?

Go and do a little research into Police Powers.  That should assist in your understanding. 

[more 825]

9 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

Go and do a little research into Police Powers.  That should assist in your understanding. 

The main point I'm trying to make in all of this that I think is being missed is if the protestor was a black person there would have been chaos, calls of police brutality and the building would have been burnt to the ground.

But because it was a white Trump supporter the reaction has been completely different, people ae almost happy she got shot.

 

[IronJimbo 1,419]

2 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

or 1st world would-be dictator.  Its been mentioned several times in other threads, some of the similarities between the Trump presidency and the fascist dictators of the 20th Century.

Sure

"Trump has a dog.  So did Hitler.  #justsaying"

[Mike Del 487]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

4 dead. 
 

guessing 4 families that wish they never went to protest. Not sure of if cops Shit them all or what.  I’m paywall blocked. 
 

And so many of those rioting vandals not wearing masks I’m  sure that figure will grow 

[Oompa Loompa 901]

So entertaining.  

So basically having read it all,  two camps, 

1. its not ok to riot and destroy Washington.

2. its justified to riot and destroy Washington because it happened in Portland, and these people are white, not black.

 

 

[Diamonds 472]

1 minute ago, more said:

The main point I'm trying to make in all of this that I think is being missed is if the protestor was a black person there would have been chaos, calls of police brutality and the building would have been burnt to the ground.

But because it was a white Trump supporter the reaction has been completely different, people ae almost happy she got shot.

 

No, you have changed your position

You have been rabbitting on about an unjustified police shooting because she was unarmed. 

I was explaining to you how that police can (and in my opinion based on limited footage, justifiably did) discharge their firearm to protect themselves or others from serious injury or death.  This is very different to a regular persons common law self defence "powers ".

These apply to white and black people.  The black DV offender getting into his car full of (previous victim) kids, knife on floor, shot recently is a case in point.  He leaves with the kids with the knife, he is a threat to them.  Turns around with knife (which he was threatening to use), threat to cops*.  Shooting ruled justified only the other day.  (* I have simplified this scenario obviously).

That mob gets in and stomps, bashes, stabs, shoots those cowering people or the cops, those police at that last line have not done their job to protect them or themselves.  The mob had ample opportunity to stop, but did not.  The only thing that stopped them was that shot.  You'll never know how many lives they saved.  Just remember who created that end scenario of "them" or "us" for those cops charged with protecting those people cowering in the chamber.

That is as clear as I can help you.  Good luck with your research.

 

[Diamonds 472]

8 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

So entertaining.  

So basically having read it all,  two camps, 

1. its not ok to riot and destroy Washington.

2. its justified to riot and destroy Washington because it happened in Portland, and these people are white, not black.

 

 

I don't have an opinion on that aspect 😂

[more 825]

10 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

No, you have changed your position

You have been rabbitting on about an unjustified police shooting because she was unarmed. 

I was explaining to you how that police can (and in my opinion based on limited footage, justifiably did) discharge their firearm to protect themselves or others from serious injury or death.  This is very different to a regular persons common law self defence "powers ".

These apply to white and black people.  The black DV offender getting into his car full of (previous victim) kids, knife on floor, shot recently is a case in point.  He leaves with the kids with the knife, he is a threat to them.  Turns around with knife (which he was threatening to use), threat to cops*.  Shooting ruled justified only the other day.  (* I have simplified this scenario obviously).

That mob gets in and stomps, bashes, stabs, shoots those cowering people or the cops, those police at that last line have not done their job to protect them or themselves.  The mob had ample opportunity to stop, but did not.  The only thing that stopped them was that shot.  You'll never know how many lives they saved.  Just remember who created that end scenario of "them" or "us" for those cops charged with protecting those people cowering in the chamber.

That is as clear as I can help you.  Good luck with your research.

 

You have missed my whole point. I have been a vocal defender of the police in past discussions and defended the difficulties they face, particularly in the US where everyone is armed. 

I was finding it funny many of the same people who were outraged in those discussions at the police shooting criminals are now OK with this lady being shot. 

I was playing a devils advocate enjoying these same people who argued against police shooting an armed criminal now arguing with me about police shooting an unarmed person. 

 

Edited January 7 by more

[Prince 891]

I think there is a correlation to the mass violent protests we have seen and the gap widening between the poor and downtrodden which will only get worse due to COVID.  

[more 825]

19 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

So entertaining.  

So basically having read it all,  two camps, 

1. its not ok to riot and destroy Washington.

2. its justified to riot and destroy Washington because it happened in Portland, and these people are white, not black.

 

 

Who has suggested its OK to destroy Washington? And 99% of the protesters in Portland were white.. 

 

The point I have been trying to make is the US endured 3+ months of violent protests in places like Portland which were effectively condoned by democratic politicians. 

This sets a mood, a normalcy that violent protests are OK. Those protests should have never been allowed to continue for more than a few days let alone a few months.. 

Edited January 7 by more

[IronJimbo 1,419]

28 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

So entertaining.  

So basically having read it all,  two camps, 

1. its not ok to riot and destroy Washington.

2. its justified to riot and destroy Washington because it happened in Portland, and these people are white, not black.

 

 

It's even simpler than that

Its okay to riot, loot, burn down buildings and shoot people in the face as long as you say you support woke causes

If you're a conservative, nothing you do is okay

[Andrew #1 1,262]

This was not a protest.

it wasn’t even a riot.

Iron Jimbo and more’s identification with reactionary white nativism is as blatant as it is predictable and deplorable. Their false equivalence making with the ordinary everyday race riots that America periodically has to deal with is truly sickening. 

This was an insurrection to thwart the democratic processes of the republic in the secular temple to democracy that is the United States congress. George Bush - of all people - called it for what it was.

It was perpetrated by traitors who had been incited by a deranged madman seeking to undermine the basic democratic norm that was first established with good grace by the very first presidential ‘loser’ - John Adams, when he willingly surrendered executive power to Thomas Jefferson back in 1801 and went home with good grace. That simple act has done more to sustain the success of American democracy than any other over the last two centuries, civil war notwithstanding. Until now.

Traitors in the midst of an insurrection on holy ground - one on which the legitimate occupants who were going about their constitutional duties were terrified at the time of this insurrection - are likely to be shot dead. Good. The rest should be identified, arrested, charged and sent to Leavenworth to await trial for treason and the death penalty should be on the table if they are found guilty.

Right now America is on the precipice. Nativism and right wing race based identity identity politics caused the last two North American civil wars. The provocations of both seem rather mild to the rolling shit show happening now. The only ingredient missing for a full blown civil war is elements of the military refusing to accept discipline and the chain of command. Given how embedded trumpianism is amongst enlisted whites, NCOs and even junior commissioned officers, not to mention the national guard in states like Wisconsin and Michigan. It begs the question right now: how long will this last? What, with the present Commander-in-Chief inciting insurrection. It is actually conceivable he’ll issue some call to arms. This is on the board right now.
 

Even short of that, America is already in a long war against domestic white terrorists, going back to the Oklahoma bombing. Short of civil war this will only increase dramatically. Apologists like more and Iron Jimbo will tut tut about BLM and Antifa. The reality is that they are merely deflecting over the malaise that has its roots in the right wing: going way back to slavery, then Jim Crow and segregation, the reverse polarisation of American politics centred around the civil rights act in the 60s, the cultivation of nativism, white privilege, neo liberalism and ‘otherism’ that the republicans have peddled since Nixon. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. This is probably the end game for that particular gambit.

Edited January 7 by Andrew #1

[Andrew #1 1,262]

You’re not a conservative Jimbo.

George Bush passes for a conservative. 

you don’t.

Edited January 7 by Andrew #1

[Yogi Bearista 8]

Of course, one point that seems to be missing attention is that the mob was directly incited and encouraged by Trump, winding them up with his conspiracies and alternative facts, telling them to march down and he'll be right there leading them, and then turning them loose while he disappeared into the shadows. Later he appears on twitter video asking them to *remain* peaceful and go home, and telling them how special they all are. Trump deserves nothing less than prosecution for sedition, and immediate removal from his position - the 25th amendment is too soft a solution to this treachery.

[BarryBevan 1,559]

https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1346952339886923786?s=20

Astounding

 

[oldave 176]

4 hours ago, Mr Tinman said:

Lol, some people in this thread are as brainwashed as the asshats in the US.

I will leave it up to your respective imaginations as to who I am referring to

No, man up and name names 

[BarryBevan 1,559]

Response during BLM, for those looking for equivalence and what happens between the law and protestors when they are not in the the seat of government and not a clear and present danger to unarmed civilians and not white

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by BarryBevan

[BarryBevan 1,559]

1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

It's even simpler than that

Its okay to riot, loot, burn down buildings and shoot people in the face as long as you say you support woke causes

If you're a conservative, nothing you do is okay

[goughy 3,736]

31 minutes ago, Yogi Bearista said:

Of course, one point that seems to be missing attention is that the mob was directly incited and encouraged by Trump, winding them up with his conspiracies and alternative facts, telling them to march down and he'll be right there leading them, and then turning them loose while he disappeared into the shadows. 

In September, his call to the proud boys to stand back and stand by.  It may have been building for longer than them, but this was when he directly set in motion today's events.

No one is confused about who and how this all started.