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Dura-ace Di2 vs SRAM Red AXS


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Looking for a consensus from Trannies as to which they prefer and why

Im buying a built up bike, so ease of installation is not a concern but ease of set up or shift quality is

I was leaning towards Red but constant talk of front derailleur shifting issues (and associated chain dropping) has me concerned 

Thoughts?

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I hear shimano are releasing a wireless version soon. 

I understand Mollema had some words in a working review for SRAM if you youtube :) 

I really have no idea but I've read the advantages of the wireless system in set up and when batteries go flat.  I'm still on campy mechanical so I am an outlier :)  

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I'm in a similar boat, wanting electronic in my next toad bike, although I'm comparing Force AXS and Ultegra DI2.

First I was leaning towards AXS, then Ultegra...

Today I was told current DI2 is being phased out in a few months. So here I am going round and round in circles again...

Sorry, no real help here 

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1 hour ago, humdrum said:

I'm in a similar boat, wanting electronic in my next toad bike, although I'm comparing Force AXS and Ultegra DI2.

First I was leaning towards AXS, then Ultegra...

Today I was told current DI2 is being phased out in a few months. So here I am going round and round in circles again...

Sorry, no real help here 

Interesting.  I didn’t know that about DI2. 
 

what are they replacing it with. As someone who was a month out from dropping 8k on a new bike 

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I'm guessing 12sp DI2, which will require new driver system for wheels etc...

But this coming from somewhere selling their bikes with Sram. Although rumours are out there for new DI2.

Maybe phased out isn't quite the correct way to put it. But maybe with a new 12sp coming out, 11sp may get more affordable?

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16 minutes ago, humdrum said:

I'm guessing 12sp DI2, which will require new driver system for wheels etc...

But this coming from somewhere selling their bikes with Sram. Although rumours are out there for new DI2.

Maybe phased out isn't quite the correct way to put it. But maybe with a new 12sp coming out, 11sp may get more affordable?

And rumours about wireless as SRAM is eating market share. 

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Thanks all

Problem is there have been rumors about 12 speed wireless Di2 for the last two years

I doubt it will be for a while yet because nothing has been seen at any of the tours and shimano normally tests with the pros for at least a while before anything is released 

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2 hours ago, Mr Tinman said:

rmally tests with the pros for at least a while before anything is released 

It's already being tested. There's been a few sightings. It's on its way soon. I didn't know they were keeping the wired versions that someone else mentioned. 

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Is this inside information or just speculation?

Normally anything new from Shimano is all over the net well before release and that just hasn't happened with wireless.

I would be pissed if I shelled out a motza for a new bike with Di2 only for wireless to be released a month later!

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23 minutes ago, Mr Tinman said:

Is this inside information or just speculation?

Normally anything new from Shimano is all over the net well before release and that just hasn't happened with wireless.

I would be pissed if I shelled out a motza for a new bike with Di2 only for wireless to be released a month later!

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/shimano-dura-ace-r9200/

Quote

There is something odd looking about the shape of both the front and rear derailleurs, with the front looking slightly chunkier than I’d expect. Nevertheless, I’m not convinced this is the new groupset.

I think the lighting is playing tricks and making familiar components look different. 

If you zoom right in on the rear derailleur it looks like the previous-generation R9150 cable is actually there, it’s just almost invisible against the cassette.

 

Quote

We know that Shimano has filed patents for wireless components in recent memory, but I don’t think the next generation of Dura-Ace Di2 will actually be wireless, or at least not fully. 

Going wireless would mean fundamentally changing the way Di2 works and up-ending the existing E-Tube ecosystem, which integrates with the STEPS ebike system

Current Di2 (no pun, etc.) runs off a single, large battery, with components connected at junction boxes – typically one at the stem and one inside the frame. 

Wireless would necessitate separate batteries and the adoption of a new communication protocol.

 

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I have seen that Bikeradar article before and you can clearly see the cable in the closeup of the cassette

I wonder if that actually is R9200 and the front and rear derailleurs are connected to the battery and each other via cable, but the shifters "talk" to the derailleurs wirelessly.

Maybe the best of both worlds. Still have a large capacity battery but easier to set up as the shifters are wireless.

If that was the case, it wouldn't be enough for me to regret buying the current Di2 other than the possibility that it is sold at a discount sometime in the future (which is typical for me)

 

 

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Guest Jim Shortz
20 hours ago, humdrum said:

I'm guessing 12sp DI2, which will require new driver system for wheels etc...

But this coming from somewhere selling their bikes with Sram. Although rumours are out there for new DI2.

Maybe phased out isn't quite the correct way to put it. But maybe with a new 12sp coming out, 11sp may get more affordable?

Probably the same freehub as the xtr 12spd 

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SO there is a guy on the weight weenies forum who says he has seen the new Di2 in a Skype meeting with Shimano but can't say anything more than "it was truly amazing"

It was also supposed to be test at this years Vuelta but that test was cancelled 2 weeks ago by Shimano Europe (he never gave a reason)

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3 hours ago, Mr Tinman said:

SO there is a guy on the weight weenies forum who says he has seen the new Di2 in a Skype meeting with Shimano but can't say anything more than "it was truly amazing"

It was also supposed to be test at this years Vuelta but that test was cancelled 2 weeks ago by Shimano Europe (he never gave a reason)

Interesting. So I guess this settles it. Shimano is too risky for buyers remorse - if you get the SRAM you won't have to worry about something better being released soon after you purchase ;) 

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Have got a bit more info out of this guy.

According to him, the next generation of D-A Di2 will be available in both wired (as now) and semi-wireless versions, all with PM

Semi -wireless will have wireless shifters. Charging of shifter batteries may also be via piezoelectric effect where simply riding will be enough to charge (Shimano has applied for a patent for this)

Mechs will still be wired to each other and to a battery

No time frame as to release.

How accurate any of that is I guess we won't know until its actually released.

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Guest Jim Shortz
4 hours ago, Mr Tinman said:

Have got a bit more info out of this guy.

According to him, the next generation of D-A Di2 will be available in both wired (as now) and semi-wireless versions, all with PM

Semi -wireless will have wireless shifters. Charging of shifter batteries may also be via piezoelectric effect where simply riding will be enough to charge (Shimano has applied for a patent for this)

Mechs will still be wired to each other and to a battery

No time frame as to release.

How accurate any of that is I guess we won't know until its actually released.

So you'll need to actually ride the bike to keep it charged... 🙄🙄🙄*

 

 

* sarcasm 

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More info

It appears that Di2 was infact being tested at the TdF but as the main visible difference is the lack of wires coming from the shifters coupled with the number of bikes now with integrated cockpits that hide the wires anyway, it wasn't picked up by anyone

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  • 1 month later...

Couldn't wait any longer for any kind of confirmation of the Di2 and what it will feature so ended up ordering new bike with SRAM Red AXS

Some people do have issues with front shifting (chain dropping off the outside), but it appears its due to initial setup and once setup correctly, the issue is resolved.

Time will tell I guess

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Canyons are amazing bikes , I’m sure you’ll love it 

my experience with AXS after recently replacing sram XX1 with XX1 AXS on my fatbike  While it works nice it is that it is NOWAY near as nice a shift as DI2 (we have 8 bikes with DI2  ) ,espually on the down shift 

ive never had to adjust any our di2 even though I’ve had some our our di2 for many many years 

I’ve allready had to adjust the AXS 3 times 

it’s only a 1 X set up so can’t comment on the front derailer 
 

be interesting to follow how you go 

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My wife just went from di2 to AXS.

One change that was needed to be made was the q-rings. The AXS front mech couldn't handle the q-ring. I have q-rings with my di2 and it's fine. Going from q-ring to no-q, she doesn't really notice the difference.

Also, first ride on her bike was last Sunday for 3 hours. In that time, the chain dropped once from a front mech shift, happened to be in the last 10 mins of ride.

She is really impressed with the feel of the shifters, aesthetics, ease of charging and the ability to shift the front mech from pressing both blips or clics.

I'll ask her about the shifting speed.

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In theory, the shifting speed should be slightly slower than di2 because the system has to wait to see if you meant to shift one cog in the rear or meant to press both levers to shift the front mech

im betting that if it is set up as synchronized shifting that the speed is just as fast as di2 because it doesn’t need to wait to see what you actually wanted to do before it shifts

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Another 3 hour ride today, my wife's Sram AXS didn't drop the chain at all and pretty much ran flawlessly.

I asked her today, and she doesn't notice any difference in shifting speed between di2 and AXS. Worth noting that she trains on her TT bike so both groupos were in TT setup. She agreed that the case may be different if she had a road bike used for crits for example.

Out of AXS and di2 in TT mode, she said she prefers AXS, she loves it.

Looking at the finish and the feedback from my wife, if I was choosing between the two for TT I would go AXS as well. It looks very slick. I currently have di2 and I love it.

Oh, worth noting as well that my wife's bike is a rim brake bike.

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Well, according to the UPS tracking system, my bike is now in Sydney so should have it soon!

Then I can give you a (very amateur cyclists) view on AXS vs a hodgepodge current setup (which actually shifts very nicely if Im honest)

(Red cranks with quarq with 10 speed 105 and ultegra cassette)

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1 hour ago, parrdog said:

Another 3 hour ride today, my wife's Sram AXS didn't drop the chain at all and pretty much ran flawlessly.

I asked her today, and she doesn't notice any difference in shifting speed between di2 and AXS. Worth noting that she trains on her TT bike so both groupos were in TT setup. She agreed that the case may be different if she had a road bike used for crits for example.

Out of AXS and di2 in TT mode, she said she prefers AXS, she loves it.

Looking at the finish and the feedback from my wife, if I was choosing between the two for TT I would go AXS as well. It looks very slick. I currently have di2 and I love it.

Oh, worth noting as well that my wife's bike is a rim brake bike.

Dared to ride my old bike with Di2 the other day just to give it the odd day out.  Hadnt ridden it for 6 months and it rode flawlessly (about 5 years old with a lot of use).  Next day rode the bike with AXS and it must have been really pi$$ed that I'd ridden the other one dropping the chain off the big ring a number of times which it hadn't done for a couple of weeks!

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21 minutes ago, truck said:

Next day rode the bike with AXS and it must have been really pi$$ed that I'd ridden the other one dropping the chain off the big ring a number of times which it hadn't done for a couple of weeks!

This is my No1 concern with AXS

All my reading seems to indicate it is a setup issue, and more often than not also a bike build issue where the FD isn't attached as per specification and can flex during shifts causing a chain dropped to the outside.

Im gunna be seriously pissed if my new bike has chain drops on a regular basis!

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11 hours ago, goughy said:

My mates axs only drops the chain to the inside, never the outside.  He's put a chain catcher back on.  

Admittedly I have always been a shimano fanboy, but surely that is just not acceptable with a top end, big $$ groupset, especially given the damage a dropped chain can do to a carbon frame. 

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2 hours ago, roxii said:

Admittedly I have always been a shimano fanboy, but surely that is just not acceptable with a top end, big $$ groupset, especially given the damage a dropped chain can do to a carbon frame. 

SRAM has a history of releasing stuff that doesn't quite work i feel. So I'm not surprised. Remember the SRAM Red chainrings from about 10 years ago that 11yr old girls could get enough flex out of to drop a chain? 

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4 hours ago, roxii said:

Admittedly I have always been a shimano fanboy, but surely that is just not acceptable with a top end, big $$ groupset, especially given the damage a dropped chain can do to a carbon frame. 

I'm assuming with proper adjustment of the limit screws, it should be pretty difficult to drop to the inside?  I mean, big cog on the back, small on the front and adjust the limit screw so you just barely hear the front derailleur rubbing the chain, then back it off just a touch so there's no rubbing, just.  That's right isn't it?  It's not brain surgery.  I wonder if it's got something to do with the smaller chainring on the front creating a bigger gap from the derailleur to the small chainring?  Something to do with how low you can get the front derailleur in the derailleur bracket?

My mate has 11sp ETAP on his TT bike.  He originally got 50/34 crankset for it but because of the derailleur construction he couldn't get the derailleur low enough in the bracket to work with a 50/34.  Changed to a 52/36 and it was ok.

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I have been running Force AXS on my road bike for 12 months (bike anniversary was last weekend)

I have dropped the chain twice

1. Was very badly timed change down on a hill when on 12 tooth on the back, so almost no chain tension. Trying to do under load

2. Last weekend, on straight road, this i put down to poor chain hygiene as bike and chain were covered in crap, and chain had not been cared for in a little while.

I don’t think the frequency is much different from my di2 setup on the last bike. i do miss synchro shifting though, that was just nice and easy.

Of note my bike was built up from a new frame, not a factory supplied setup, so whether that has a impact on performance I don’t know. It was  the first AXS set-up the mechanic did but had done plenty of sram wireless 11 speed set-ups previously.

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One thing about the SRAM discs is that they seem to run very tight clearances between the pads and the disc.

Barreling down a reasonable descent and had a car pull out at the bottom, so I hit the anchors pretty hard (wasn't dangerous on the drivers part, was just being cautious with my new baby) and the damn discs rubbed for a minute or two till they cooled down.

Then rode in the rain yesterday and they squealed a bit, but then rubbed slightly most of the ride with all the crap built up on the pads.

First world problems, but somewhat annoying.

There is a procedure to "reset" the pad to disc clearance so will give that a go over Chrissy and see it if helps.

Otherwise, its very impressive. Even updated the firmware over the air yesterday post ride using the app. Wonder how it will change the way it feels (if at all)

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56 minutes ago, Mr Tinman said:

There is a procedure to "reset" the pad to disc clearance so will give that a go over Chrissy and see it if helps.

Compared with the chain coming off, I've treated the pad/disc rubbing as a more minor issue 😄.  I've gone through the whole reset procedure but with not much luck - wheel free spin is still restricted showing some very slight ongoing rubbing.  Have now reset the calipers as per https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/gen.0000000005964_rev_d_etap_axs_hrd_service_manual_english.pdf

which has reset the gap on both sides.  Now just have to go for a ride and see if it works its way back or stays clear.

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