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Ironman - Kona spots for women allocated


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We had a bit of time on our hands and so did this chart below

Given that Ironman are encouraging females - and that Cairns had a small cohert of women

Assumptions:

  • All Kona slots taken, with no roll down
  • Times – Gender adjusted – 11% allowance for females; and Age adjusted (closely based on 70.3 published data as below)

image.jpeg.1d0f929c3bf926cbf3b8d4c794ec292a.jpeg

 

 

Graph of Adjusted Race Times versus Age group

  • Blue dots – Male Qualifiers
  • Red dots – Female Qualifiers
  • Black Squares – Females missing allocation due to very restricted slots

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.26147e9c573bedbf6695f1b54fa0dff3.jpeg

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It just was interesting to see that some women missed out on a spot when they performed better then some of the males that did qualify ..Solely because the numbers weren't there for the females so they got less spots assigned.

10 spots were assigned to females and 65 to males

The data in the graph was adjusted down so every one was for an example, s a  25 year old male 

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47 minutes ago, Youngy2 said:

It just was interesting to see that some women missed out on a spot when they performed better then some of the males that did qualify ..Solely because the numbers weren't there for the females so they got less spots assigned.

10 spots were assigned to females and 65 to males

The data in the graph was adjusted down so every one was for an example, s a  25 year old male 

This is what I thought was the explanation and why I didn't delete it.

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3 hours ago, Youngy2 said:

It just was interesting to see that some women missed out on a spot when they performed better then some of the males that did qualify ..Solely because the numbers weren't there for the females so they got less spots assigned.

10 spots were assigned to females and 65 to males

The data in the graph was adjusted down so every one was for an example, s a  25 year old male 

But the number of slots allocated is always done as an even proportion of the entrants in each category. Times don't really come into it.

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17 hours ago, Youngy2 said:

We had a bit of time on our hands and so did this chart below

Given that Ironman are encouraging females - and that Cairns had a small cohert of women

Assumptions:

  • All Kona slots taken, with no roll down
  • Times – Gender adjusted – 11% allowance for females; and Age adjusted (closely based on 70.3 published data as below)

image.jpeg.1d0f929c3bf926cbf3b8d4c794ec292a.jpeg

 

 

Graph of Adjusted Race Times versus Age group

  • Blue dots – Male Qualifiers
  • Red dots – Female Qualifiers
  • Black Squares – Females missing allocation due to very restricted slots

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.26147e9c573bedbf6695f1b54fa0dff3.jpeg

I'm assuming you slowed the men down? Hence the slow qualifying times? If not it's time for me to make a comeback 🤣

And doesn't your graph show that those missing out had gender adjusted times slower than everyone else who qualified in their age group? 

Of course that's assuming the adjusted times are legitimate which I'm guessing isn't designed to be that accurate.

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1 hour ago, AA7 said:

But the number of slots allocated is always done as an even proportion of the entrants in each category. Times don't really come into it.

Pretty much.

As far as I remember in terms of slots for women, they have mostly been at 70.3 worlds and only select races where they have the Women for Tri present, which in Oceania is not many races. I remember looking at the requirements for being an ambassador and it said I had to be at two of their races, there were only two in Oceania, none in NSW. 🤣

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6 hours ago, Youngy2 said:

It just was interesting to see that some women missed out on a spot when they performed better then some of the males that did qualify ..Solely because the numbers weren't there for the females so they got less spots assigned.

10 spots were assigned to females and 65 to males

The data in the graph was adjusted down so every one was for an example, s a  25 year old male 

Which women outperformed the men? Only one female AG went under 11 hours and she was 10.50.

It would probably be a fairer system if it was done by time rather than AG i.e I don't think it's fair if there's only person racing 18-24 and they qualify with 12 hours whereas someone misses out despite racing an hour quicker. Perhaps merge small age groups. 

Edited by zed
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20 hours ago, Youngy2 said:

 

Assumptions:

  •  
  • Times – Gender adjusted – 11% allowance for females; and Age adjusted (closely based on 70.3 published data as below)

 

 

 

 

 

Where did you get the 11 % from? 

 

2 hours ago, AA7 said:

But the number of slots allocated is always done as an even proportion of the entrants in each category.

Incorrect. Smaller age groups receive proportionally more slots. 

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I’m in two minds here... 

On one hand regardless of amount of entries men/women, i still think women should get more spots allocated. You’re kind of penalizing women because there’s not many of them and they really cant control the amount of women turning up. 

On the other hand especially in Cairns, there wasn’t a whole lot of depth and there was only two age groups where women probably needed a second slot. So the debate there is do they really deserve those slots? 

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I think the system can be further refined (means more work for Ironman, if they want to do it) is to have a cut off for qualifying within a certain % of the finishing time of the winner in each age group. They have done it in the past for Pros, if for example there are 2 spots but the 2nd place finisher is outside the range, he/she doesn't get the spot. 

And spots that cannot be claimed because they finished outside the range, gets rolled to another age group. 

It still won't be 100% fair as you can have a very fast winner (e.g. former pro) in your age group and everyone else would be far behind.

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 I think a few of the outlier age groups, 65+ women and 70+ men and potentially the younger women's age group, rather than get a minimum one spot per age group per race, maybe those should be put into a global pool and the top 10 or 15 globally chosen for Kona only.  

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The spots should be 50/50 

the women can’t help if others don’t turn up. 
if there are 100 kona slots give 50 to women and 50 to men. 

however once above 50 age groups should go in years of 10 not 5. 
ie 50-59, 60-69 over 70. 
 

Edited by Peter
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55 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

however once above 50 age groups should go in years of 10 not 5. 
ie 50-59, 60-69 over 70. 
 

Except that 5 years makes much more difference once you're over 40.   A 39 year old can race (and beat) a 30 year old, but a 69 year old racing a 60 year old for the same spot is a bit unfair.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

The spots should be 50/50 

the women can’t help if others don’t turn up. 
if there are 100 kona slots give 50 to women and 50 to men. 

however once above 50 age groups should go in years of 10 not 5. 
ie 50-59, 60-69 over 70. 
 

Can we do the same for age groups too Peter? equal slots for each age group. Increase the slots for under 25 and reduce it for all those 35-45 age groups. Not the young people's fault no one shows up :) And it is definitely the mid life crisis age group's fault that everyone turns up :D

Edited by dazaau
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2 hours ago, Peter said:

The spots should be 50/50 

 

That is bad for everyone.  Having more women KQ helps address the gender imbalance, but you'll end up with a whole bunch of women travelling to Kona, unfit and ill prepared for the race. All that does is damage the credibility of the event, the sport and ultimately, for many, spells the end of their triathlon career. A cheap Kona spot is a poisoned chalice for most. Case in point, Corky.

I'm not bringing up her name to denigrate as I have some degree of sympathy for her and her coaching partner, CK, but their "easy" KQ has brought them nothing but ridicule and humiliation and all it's done is kill their motivation to train and kill their future in the sport. Can you imagine trying to motivate yourself to KQ again, knowing you had to double your training volume and race 2 hours quicker... I think their apathy for triathlon is quite understandable.  

I think in the long term no-one is going to be thankful for that cheap Kona spot. 
 

Edited by zed
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7 minutes ago, zed said:

 

I'm not bringing up her name to denigrate as I have some degree of sympathy for her and her coaching partner, CK, but their "easy" KQ has brought them nothing but ridicule and humiliation and all it's done is kill their motivation to train and kill their future in the sport. Can you imagine trying to motivate yourself to KQ again, knowing you had to double your training volume and race 2 hours quicker... I think their apathy for triathlon is quite understandable. 


 

I think that coaching business wrapped up long ago.

 

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14 minutes ago, AA7 said:

Really, why did you think that? 

I thought I read something on IG a while back, but could be wrong, I wasn't paying that much attention!

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1 hour ago, zed said:

That is bad for everyone.  Having more women KQ helps address the gender imbalance, but you'll end up with a whole bunch of women travelling to Kona, unfit and ill prepared for the race. All that does is damage the credibility of the event, the sport and ultimately, for many, spells the end of their triathlon career. A cheap Kona spot is a poisoned chalice for most.
 

But its not A real world championships anyway.  So why does it matter?

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2 hours ago, zed said:

That is bad for everyone.  Having more women KQ helps address the gender imbalance, but you'll end up with a whole bunch of women travelling to Kona, unfit and ill prepared for the race. All that does is damage the credibility of the event, the sport and ultimately, for many, spells the end of their triathlon career. A cheap Kona spot is a poisoned chalice for most. Case in point, Corky.

I'm not bringing up her name to denigrate as I have some degree of sympathy for her and her coaching partner, CK, but their "easy" KQ has brought them nothing but ridicule and humiliation and all it's done is kill their motivation to train and kill their future in the sport. Can you imagine trying to motivate yourself to KQ again, knowing you had to double your training volume and race 2 hours quicker... I think their apathy for triathlon is quite understandable.  

I think in the long term no-one is going to be thankful for that cheap Kona spot. 
 

The current model is just fine. Lets not so something mad like give half the slots to 15 % of the field. As in the under mens 50 AG its hard, Top three women at Port don't get a slot and men going under 10 don't get slots.

Its hard as a lot of people want to go but the slot allocation is pretty solid

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Guest Jim Shortz
3 hours ago, zed said:

That is bad for everyone.  Having more women KQ helps address the gender imbalance, but you'll end up with a whole bunch of women travelling to Kona, unfit and ill prepared for the race. All that does is damage the credibility of the event, the sport and ultimately, for many, spells the end of their triathlon career. A cheap Kona spot is a poisoned chalice for most. Case in point, Corky.

I'm not bringing up her name to denigrate as I have some degree of sympathy for her and her coaching partner, CK, but their "easy" KQ has brought them nothing but ridicule and humiliation and all it's done is kill their motivation to train and kill their future in the sport. Can you imagine trying to motivate yourself to KQ again, knowing you had to double your training volume and race 2 hours quicker... I think their apathy for triathlon is quite understandable.  

I think in the long term no-one is going to be thankful for that cheap Kona spot. 
 

In my experience, people aren't thankful for anything gifted. It loses it's allure and wonder. ✌️

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

But its not A real world championships anyway.  So why does it matter?

Yeah. Maybe they need to drop the world champ name. 

 

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17 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah. Maybe they need to drop the world champ name. 

 

Maybe they just need to have a real world championships.  
 

I really wonder if they will one day and move it around like the 70.3 worlds for $$$$

and just have it in Kona every 3 years. 
 

id personally prefer them have a grand slam of 3 or 4 Ironmans for the world champion because the current system favors past champions and also people that race well in the heat. 
 

id like to see a hilly course. A flat fast course. A cold race.  And a hot race. 

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39 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

 

id like to see a hilly course. A flat fast course. A cold race.  And a hot race. 

So you basically just want IM Melbourne.... LOL 

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7 hours ago, roxii said:

 I think a few of the outlier age groups, 65+ women and 70+ men and potentially the younger women's age group, rather than get a minimum one spot per age group per race, maybe those should be put into a global pool and the top 10 or 15 globally chosen for Kona only.  

How would you account for different courses and conditions to get those top 10?

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12 hours ago, Peter said:

 

id personally prefer them have a grand slam of 3 or 4 Ironmans for the world champion because the current system favors past champions and also people that race well in the heat. 
 

id like to see a hilly course. A flat fast course. A cold race.  And a hot race. 

I like that idea. Kona suits certain individuals. 4 very different courses in different countries would be fascinating. It would also give the pros to make up for a bad race. In Kona, one flat tyre or upset stomach spells the end of your race, pretty much. At least if there were 4 races, you would have the chance to make up for it.

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56 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

If it's the World Champs there should be no age groups. 

I don't agree.  I think age groupers can have their World Championships too.

But no "free spots" to it.

Do an IRONMAN and qualify.  Not a half. Not a lottery. Not a sponsors.

But by having a grand slam for the Professionals it takes the focus off one location.  Maybe take the best of 3 races (allow you to drop one result).

And the Age groupers world champs moves around like the 70.3 WC.

Maybe once every 4 years have it in Kona. (for the age groupers) and the other 3 years, you can just pony up $1400 entry fee and go do it.

 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

I don't agree.  I think age groupers can have their World Championships too.

But no "free spots" to it.

Do an IRONMAN and qualify.  Not a half. Not a lottery. Not a sponsors.

But by having a grand slam for the Professionals it takes the focus off one location.  Maybe take the best of 3 races (allow you to drop one result).

And the Age groupers world champs moves around like the 70.3 WC.

Maybe once every 4 years have it in Kona. (for the age groupers) and the other 3 years, you can just pony up $1400 entry fee and go do it.

 

So potentially, Pros have to race 3 times on an Ironman course per year...? 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Jim Shortz said:

So potentially, Pros have to race 3 times on an Ironman course per year...? 

 

 

What else are they doing? 
 

they are professionals. they recover from a 70.3 in a few days and race again.  
and an  Ironman within weeks. 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

What else are they doing? 
 

they are professionals. they recover from a 70.3 in a few days and race again.  
and an  Ironman within weeks. 

There was an issue with the validation process in the past which required multiple IM races for a Kona spot.... 

 

As if Pros are going to RACE 3 a year. Especially if you make the 3 NZ, Austria and a Nth American race. 

They were concerned about burn out with the validation process, let alone a race process. 

 

Nice in theory but no. 👍

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2 minutes ago, Jim Shortz said:

As if Pros are going to RACE 3 a year. Especially if you make the 3 NZ, Austria and a Nth American race. 

They were concerned about burn out with the validation process, let alone a race process. 

 

Nice in theory but no. 👍

Any decent pro Wurf his salt would do it easily.   

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4 minutes ago, Jim Shortz said:

There was an issue with the validation process in the past which required multiple IM races for a Kona spot.... 

 

As if Pros are going to RACE 3 a year. Especially if you make the 3 NZ, Austria and a Nth American race. 

They were concerned about burn out with the validation process, let alone a race process. 

 

Nice in theory but no. 👍

I told my boss I was concerned about the validation process to to get to the next level at work. 

He laughed & gave the job to somone else.......

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Plenty of pros race several Ironman’s a year already.  This wouldn’t be a stretch at all. 
 

infact some of the best do exactly this. 

not that it will happen. Ironman couldn’t care less about the professionals. 

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13 hours ago, Peter said:

And the Age groupers world champs moves around like the 70.3 WC.

Maybe once every 4 years have it in Kona. (for the age groupers) and the other 3 years, you can just pony up $1400 entry fee and go do it.

They'll keep the Kona qualifying system whether or not they call it a world championship – it generates a lot of cash for them and drives entries to their other races. People want to race it because it's Kona. The qualifying system began long before anyone thought to call it a world championship. If they moved the so called world champs to another location, though, that would create a whole new set of slots they could sell – like printing money.

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The thing is if they move the world champs around on a rotation 

year 1 usa

year 2 Europe 

year 3 Oceania 

year 4 kona

repeat 

on the off years they could just have a normal Kona race and charge heaps to do it. 
Are people trying to get to kona to race as part of the world championships or just do the Kona course?

the legacy system proves its to Just do that course. 
 

the guy that qualified in cairns in 11:30 hours last week, its even Going to be a factor in the top 100 of his age race in Kona next October. He is in another event compared to the guys that will podium. 

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Scarcity makes something valuable. Open up the Kona course and take away it's world championship status. Dead. 

Ironman are smart, through the qualifying system and legacy slots they keep people coming back for more. The lottery and guest invites make for good TV. Sell the vision/dream.

The ideas on this thread would just trash the band. Make it like the 70.3 world championships, yawn.

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But people can’t get spots to the 70.3 worlds. 
when it was to be in nz this year you needed to be top 10 at worse in your age group to get a spot. So just because some don’t want to go, plenty do. 
 

and Kona will always be kona. 
 

they could even do an ironman in Maui and it would sell out in minutes. 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

But people can’t get spots to the 70.3 worlds. 
when it was to be in nz this year you needed to be top 10 at worse in your age group to get a spot. So just because some don’t want to go, plenty do. 

Obviously the roll down is different at each race, but my experiences at rolldown ceremonies I attended:

- Florida & Vegas: If you finished and wanted a slot, you got one.

- Mooloolaba: almost no rolldowns, unless athlete already had a slot

- Nice: Rolldowns in below 25's (cos they couldn't afford to travel), but hardly any rolldowns in the older men.  However took a long time to allocate the extra 'women in tri' slots

- New Zealand: Very few rolldowns for Women. However some of the Men's categories rolled down a fair way (well over 10th place)

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19 hours ago, Peter said:

What else are they doing? 
 

they are professionals. they recover from a 70.3 in a few days and race again.  
and an  Ironman within weeks. 

Some pro's can handle multiple Ironmans, others cannot.

I suspect the change in Kona qualifications where everyone (even previous winners) had to do at least one other Ironman possibly robbed Crowie of a 4th Kona title.

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2 hours ago, Rob said:

Some pro's can handle multiple Ironmans, others cannot.

I suspect the change in Kona qualifications where everyone (even previous winners) had to do at least one other Ironman possibly robbed Crowie of a 4th Kona title.

If he was good enough he would have won. 

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3 hours ago, Rob said:

Obviously the roll down is different at each race, but my experiences at rolldown ceremonies I attended:

- Florida & Vegas: If you finished and wanted a slot, you got one.

- Mooloolaba: almost no rolldowns, unless athlete already had a slot

- Nice: Rolldowns in below 25's (cos they couldn't afford to travel), but hardly any rolldowns in the older men.  However took a long time to allocate the extra 'women in tri' slots

- New Zealand: Very few rolldowns for Women. However some of the Men's categories rolled down a fair way (well over 10th place)

I was at a China 70.3 last year and the spots to the 70.3 were in higher demand than the Kona spots. 
you could only take them to one race and it was clear that most wanted 70.3 not kona. 

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