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Nick, I agree with FB and Rob. I have also found good short term release though with a static stretch of 3min holds on each calf followed by 2x1 min. does nothing to prevent, just helps release. 

I do them cooking the bbq. 🙂 

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1 hour ago, Nick777 said:

I figure this is as good a place to post this as anywhere...

I have had persistent calf issues over the past few years. I am not tearing them, but they are 'locking' pretty regularly. Then I need to go to a physio, and suffer through having his elbow ripping through my calves so that I can start up again.

If you have had this sort of thing, and fixed the issue - what did you do?

The latest bit of advice that I have received is to gradually work down to totally flat shoes & gradually work on my whole leg flexibility.

Which was why I asked AA7 about her AT. I had a bit of AT for a while, but also dodgy calves for years. Kept on tearing them. I went to 3 different physios, all the same diagnosis, weak calves, strengthen them. But nothing worked, AT and calf tears. I ended up going to a highly recommended sports physio. Within 2 minutes he identified an issue with my right hip flexor. It was very tight, so my right leg would splay out, a bit like a duck, put pressure on the calf and the AT. So I could stretch my calf all day, as long as that hip flexor was tight, the calf was going to tear and the AT was going to hurt. 

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1 hour ago, Rob said:

Calf raises are good.

However I strongly suspect the calf muscles are the victims and the problem is higher up near the hip.  Glute engagement, hip flexors, abductors, etc.  Once your muscles and tendons around the hip stop working properly, the lower muscles are forced to take on more load.

yups! Certainly in my experience.

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3 hours ago, zed said:

Which was why I asked AA7 about her AT. I had a bit of AT for a while, but also dodgy calves for years. Kept on tearing them. I went to 3 different physios, all the same diagnosis, weak calves, strengthen them. But nothing worked, AT and calf tears. I ended up going to a highly recommended sports physio. Within 2 minutes he identified an issue with my right hip flexor. It was very tight, so my right leg would splay out, a bit like a duck, put pressure on the calf and the AT. So I could stretch my calf all day, as long as that hip flexor was tight, the calf was going to tear and the AT was going to hurt. 

Yeah a couple of people have intimated that the issue likely starts up higher. I have started a bit of a stretch program & am going to take some time getting back into it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 29/08/2020 at 11:19 PM, BogFrog said:

HA!  I did a marathon program and my pace never changed!  I'm hopeless!   (Or WAS hopeless - I am ACTIVELY trying to slow down and it IS working, but sloooooooowly

It IS working.  My last few easy / long runs have been run at a lower wattage / pace.  Not sure I'll get down to 5:30s, but today was 5:19 for 12km, 194w and 138HR.  Felt good for the first 3/4, but started feeling ploddy at the end...

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12 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

It IS working.  My last few easy / long runs have been run at a lower wattage / pace.  Not sure I'll get down to 5:30s, but today was 5:19 for 12km, 194w and 138HR.  Felt good for the first 3/4, but started feeling ploddy at the end...

How/why do you use power on runs? What information does the 194 watts provide you that  the 5:19 at 138HR doesn't? Id imagine it would be pretty inconsistent compared to a power meter on a bike?

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31 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

It IS working.  My last few easy / long runs have been run at a lower wattage / pace.  Not sure I'll get down to 5:30s, but today was 5:19 for 12km, 194w and 138HR.  Felt good for the first 3/4, but started feeling ploddy at the end...

Assume you have one of those cool run PM!!

Running is funny and pace is variable for all, given terrain etc, what do you mean by ploddy. There is no magic to running easy other than it lets you do a lot of it.

Scheduling of long run can make a huge difference as well. Middle of week away from long bikes is good. As long as you are able to talk, breathe reasonably easy, don't worry about pace.

Going to head out for long run now 13k sigh how the mighty have fallen

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Running has a spiritual aspect. It is a thing we evolved to do. The purity of a run along with the joy of being in nature, propelled by self makes it the most appealing exercise.

Garmin, pace power meters take away from the innate natural pleasure. Run a lot, run different routes, run fast, run hills, run slow.

Eventually if you run a lot you will run slow, but you will also run fast

Edited by BarryBevan
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8 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Running has a spiritual aspect. It is a thing we evolved to do. The purity of a run along with the joy of being in nature, propelled by self makes it the most appealing exercise.

As much as I love open water swimming or riding on back roads through the hinterland, they pale in comparison to the feeling I used to get going for an early morning run, on my own through the bush. Whether it was the local state forest, the loop around Uluru. or the tracks up the hill to overlook Wineglass Bay, there's something magical about running through a natural area that you can't get anywhere else.

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1 minute ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

As much as I love open water swimming or riding on back roads through the hinterland, they pale in comparison to the feeling I used to get going for an early morning run, on my own through the bush. Whether it was the local state forest, the loop around Uluru. or the tracks up the hill to overlook Wineglass Bay, there's something magical about running through a natural area that you can't get anywhere else.

Yes, yes!! I've taken to running the hills around here, just to be on the trails all the time, often have plus 6 min km pace and even, gasp walk some bits.

Love being at the summit looking over clouds to other peaks

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1 minute ago, BarryBevan said:

Love being at the summit looking over clouds to other peaks

That reminds me of some of the runs I used to do when working in the Broadcast area. Most of our work was on mountain tops, some very remote. I've probably run places few have walked, and probably none have run. The site at Bellenden Ker is the 2nd highest peak in Qld, and in the middle of the Wet Tropics World Heritage area. The only access to the site is via a private cable-car about 6km in length or by chopper. I had a 2km loop around the the summit that I'd repeat a few times each morning while staying up on site. To watch the sun rise over the ocean, and the clouds through the valleys way below, or the view over the Atherton Tablelands to the west, simply took your breath away.

image-1.jpeg?w=1100&h=550&crop=1

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17 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Garmin, pace power meters take away from the innate natural pleasure. Run a lot, run different routes, run fast, run hills, run slow.

I do every run with my Garmin, but rarely look at it.  Apart from the last 6 weeks when I need to check to make sure I'm not going to exceed 60 mins of exercise.

Even on my faster track workouts or threshold intervals, I run to feel and then check my split/pace at the end of the interval.  Prefer to have a set course for intervals where I know the start and finish points.  It might mean my 1km efforts end up being 900m or 1.1km, but training wise that makes no difference. And it is more repeatable as I am running over a set distance rather than relying on the variances of my GPS signal strength.

I like the data history it provides for me.  Is my HR dropping for the same pace on my easy runs? Am I running my intervals at a constant pace, or am I starting out too fast and slowly fading? I'm an IT developer, so I love pouring over the data, but during the actual training session, I prefer to run to feel.  And the feedback from the data helps you better understand the 'feel'

For me this is quite different to cycling where I am often checking my power.

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22 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

.... To watch the sun rise over the ocean, and the clouds through the valleys way below, or the view over the Atherton Tablelands to the west, simply took your breath away.

A little off topic and a place many others have been.

Leaving at 4am, above 5,000m altitude, in minus 15 degrees temperature, we hiked to the top of Kala Patthar to watch the sun rise over Mt Everest.

That felt on top of the world (and very cold).  And if you were wondering, yes it is a sheer drop from the ledge we were sitting on.

Extremely slow progress to summit due to the altitude, but I was so cold I ran down.  Well the closest I could get to running over very rocky terrain and limited oxygen.  Was tempted to create a Strava Segment for my descent.

20160408_070508.thumb.jpg.223ab837cb370cfc09910418e70aac89.jpg20160408_062931.thumb.jpg.ef84f792a3d265fc5ea684bed818d430.jpgKalaPatharStravaMap.thumb.png.80ca84189432522d8ce57a67a9d06d37.png

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2 hours ago, Rob said:

A little off topic and a place many others have been.

Leaving at 4am, above 5,000m altitude, in minus 15 degrees temperature, we hiked to the top of Kala Patthar to watch the sun rise over Mt Everest.

That felt on top of the world (and very cold).  And if you were wondering, yes it is a sheer drop from the ledge we were sitting on.

Extremely slow progress to summit due to the altitude, but I was so cold I ran down.  Well the closest I could get to running over very rocky terrain and limited oxygen.  Was tempted to create a Strava Segment for my descent.

20160408_070508.thumb.jpg.223ab837cb370cfc09910418e70aac89.jpg20160408_062931.thumb.jpg.ef84f792a3d265fc5ea684bed818d430.jpgKalaPatharStravaMap.thumb.png.80ca84189432522d8ce57a67a9d06d37.png

Those km splits are crap. Go back and do it again but faster.

Looks like you got an awesome day to be there. Fantastic photos!

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22 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Assume you have one of those cool run PM!!

Running is funny and pace is variable for all, given terrain etc, what do you mean by ploddy. There is no magic to running easy other than it lets you do a lot of it.

Yeah, got a stryd a few months ago - still working it out, but it's interesting to see the data. Ploddy - feeling super slow and awkward although the pace doesn't actually change. I find this happens near the end of my long runs (occasionally on shorter easier runs) if I keep the same pace - increasing the pace / effort seems to resolve it, but that isn't the aim/goal of the session.

22 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Running has a spiritual aspect. It is a thing we evolved to do. The purity of a run along with the joy of being in nature, propelled by self makes it the most appealing exercise.

Garmin, pace power meters take away from the innate natural pleasure. Run a lot, run different routes, run fast, run hills, run slow.

Eventually if you run a lot you will run slow, but you will also run fast

I totally get you - there is something so simple and pure about running, but I don't find the Garmin / PM etc take away from it.  I use the Garmin a lot for speed sessions to ensure I'm sticking to the right pace, but normally, if I'm just doing an easy run, or a race (apart from the first km or so), I'll run to feel.

And the running a lot thing doesn't work for me.  I took a year off speed work and my top end speed slowed by 20secs per km...  With approx the same mileage as before...

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2 hours ago, BogFrog said:

And the running a lot thing doesn't work for me.  I took a year off speed work and my top end speed slowed by 20secs per km...  With approx the same mileage as before...

I am going to guess that your running form goes to shit when you slow down.

This is something I have experienced myself and have worked on over the years.

- moved all my runs to trails

- different shoes for fast and slow runs

- sometimes I alternate each km between running slow and concentrating on good technique

- run tall, even when going slow

- listen to my foot strike and learn to recognise the difference in sound when form drops (and correct)

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8 minutes ago, Rob said:

I am going to guess that your running form goes to shit when you slow down.

- run tall, even when going slow

- listen to my foot strike and learn to recognise the difference in sound when form drops (and correct)

That's the biggest change that I've made this year - being aware of how to run confidently, and knowing how to tell when I'm going to crap. The biggest one that I've picked up on is that my head drops and I start watching where my feet land, rather than keeping tall and my eyes up looking down the road. I also start to feel my medial malleoli rub together or I start to rub my knees together. If I can avoid those 3 things, I run much better for longer periods of time.

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1 hour ago, BNothling said:

That's the biggest change that I've made this year - being aware of how to run confidently, and knowing how to tell when I'm going to crap. The biggest one that I've picked up on is that my head drops and I start watching where my feet land, rather than keeping tall and my eyes up looking down the road. I also start to feel my medial malleoli rub together or I start to rub my knees together. If I can avoid those 3 things, I run much better for longer periods of time.

Yeah, my heel scraping the calf of my other leg is another sign for me.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 29/08/2020 at 8:09 PM, trilobite said:

Run surface is something I’m surprised isn’t mentioned more often.

And equally surprised how many people choose to run on a concrete multi-use path instead of thr regularly mowed grass beside it (particularly when it isn’t wet with dew)🤔

Even back in 1960s Percy Cerutti was suggesting not to run on concrete, asphalt, etc...

Interesting test today...  I've been doing all my intervals on grass for the last while. My top ave power for e.g. 1km reps for the last few weeks has been around 225 - 230 watts (around 4:10 - 4:15 pace).  I did a 5km TT today and decided to do it on the crit track (bitumen) next to the grass track.  I wasn't going all out, but it was pretty firm.  My ave power was 235 and pace was 4:06.  I had been pushing harder on those 1km reps...

So, herein lies the question...  I want to keep doing the reps on the grass due to injury concerns, but am I getting the same benefit there as I would be on bitumen / concrete seeing as I can push out more watts and get more speed on the bitumen?  Or will the effort translate to higher wattage come race day on the bitumen?

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Short answer: I would keep running on the grass.

Your foot will sink a little when it lands on the grass, so you get a softer landing. Whereas there is minimal give in the bitumen (although it is better than concrete).

The grass absorbs some of your footstrike, whereas you get a little more rebound from the bitumen.  Imagine bouncing a tennis ball on the different surfaces, which would bounce higher.

I've never used a running power meter before, but guessing the higher impact of the bitumen would register a higher reading, even if you were using the same force.

The main reason I'd suggest staying on the grass it that it will be kinder to your legs and far less chance of injury.  This means you can run more, which will give you more benefit than running a 1km efforts 5 secs quicker.

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15 minutes ago, Rob said:

Short answer: I would keep running on the grass.

Oh, I intend to!  This is just a theoretical question really.  Ideally I will eventually get to once a week reps on grass, once a week on bitumen, but I'm not going there at the moment so soon after the shin stressie.

The question is more like... if the effort is there (effort NOT being power) would I still be getting the same gains even though it is slower?  So if I trained to the same effort on grass (slower), that I would have on bitumen (faster), would that translate to the same speed when I eventually race on bitumen?

15 minutes ago, Rob said:

Your foot will sink a little when it lands on the grass, so you get a softer landing. Whereas there is minimal give in the bitumen (although it is better than concrete).

The grass absorbs some of your footstrike, whereas you get a little more rebound from the bitumen.  Imagine bouncing a tennis ball on the different surfaces, which would bounce higher.

I've never used a running power meter before, but guessing the higher impact of the bitumen would register a higher reading, even if you were using the same force.

Yes, I understand this - the grass will absorb more, therefore less rebound.  Less rebound = less power.  The higher impact of the bitumen allows more rebound therefore more power, therefore the power meter records more power...

15 minutes ago, Rob said:

Whereas there is minimal give in the bitumen (although it is better than concrete).

Yes, we all seem to think and feel this, but I maybe bitumen is kinder to us due to the unevenness, bumps, cracks etc that develop in the material.  Concrete tends to be flat, even and with little variation.  I found this article a while back when I was looking into the concrete vs bitumen thing...  https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html

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29 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

Yes, we all seem to think and feel this, but I maybe bitumen is kinder to us due to the unevenness, bumps, cracks etc that develop in the material.  Concrete tends to be flat, even and with little variation.  I found this article a while back when I was looking into the concrete vs bitumen thing...  https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html

That article seemed quite skewed, especially for places like Australia where our roads are never anywhere near 0 degrees fahrenheit (which is -17 celsius).  Even walking I can the tell the difference (maybe our concrete and asphalt mixes are different).  Rather than his golf ball test, drop a coffee cup on both surfaces and see which one breaks (or shatters more).

I try to do as much running on trails as possible.  Not only the softer surface, but the uneven ground makes you a better runner. You learn to run with lighter feet and become more efficient.

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1 hour ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Dont over think it. 

ME? 🤯  Overthink? 🤣

I am a product of my background - 'alf ov me overrrsinks, analyzis everrrrrysing and eez constantly deesgusteeeed, and de udder half just takes de piss outa everything.

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3 hours ago, Bosco said:

BogFrog - do you have any HR data to compare as well? 

Sure do. Today's average was 170bmp (highest at 174). My last 3 longer interval runs were 5min reps, 6min reps and 8min reps. Speed was between 4:08 - 4:25  depending on whether more uphill or downhill, with ave HR 160 - 170 per rep depending on more up or down. Rest was 2 mins.

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As a follow-up to my earlier post in this thread about running again after a 4 year break, I will elaborate.  I made it to the start line for the OD race last weekend in the Moreton Bay Tri and ran conservatively.  It was all about just finishing without pain.  I was probably the oldest competitor there and there was only one other in my AG.  Considering that my last tri was four years ago (70.3 worlds at the Sunny Coast) I was happy with the outcome, was pain free and felt good afterwards.

I realise that I have to conserve what I have and will limit myself to OD races.  Sprints are too fast and 70.3 is too long a run.  Consequently I have signed up for Mooloolaba next year for my 17th go-around there.  I just have to be sensible running over summer.

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