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Follow on from the swim thread, what are people doing. During lock down, it was a Northern Spring Summer and we were allowed to run, my bikes were still in storage and no pools. So I ran, for about 4 weeks I ran 60 to 90 km a week without any intensity.

Did two test sets 5 K at 19:12 and then a 10 K at 39:18

Over the years I've been ok at 5 K but not been able to replicate over the longer distance. In that 10 K I was able to evenly split and then hit the last K at 345. For that experiment a period of consistent aerobic volume was the answer.

No intervals or km below 5 mins

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9 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Follow on from the swim thread, what are people doing. During lock down, it was a Northern Spring Summer and we were allowed to run, my bikes were still in storage and no pools. So I ran, for about 4 weeks I ran 60 to 90 km a week without any intensity.

Did two test sets 5 K at 19:12 and then a 10 K at 39:18

Over the years I've been ok at 5 K but not been able to replicate over the longer distance. In that 10 K I was able to evenly split and then hit the last K at 345. For that experiment a period of consistent aerobic volume was the answer.

No intervals or km below 5 mins

Impressive - both distances and pace. Age group?

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23 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

Impressive - both distances and pace. Age group?

age 46.

I've always been able to push it for 5 k but found with just one month of steady volume that I had the fitness to hold on through the second 5 K.

As in the swimming thread it wasn't lung busting intervals that did it. Though there is a place for intervals. At the moment I'm a bit constrained with what I can do with wife still in the USA so I'm running trails lots of elevation but no more than 40 Km per week

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33 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Follow on from the swim thread, what are people doing. During lock down, it was a Northern Spring Summer and we were allowed to run, my bikes were still in storage and no pools. So I ran, for about 4 weeks I ran 60 to 90 km a week without any intensity.

Did two test sets 5 K at 19:12 and then a 10 K at 39:18

Over the years I've been ok at 5 K but not been able to replicate over the longer distance. In that 10 K I was able to evenly split and then hit the last K at 345. For that experiment a period of consistent aerobic volume was the answer.

No intervals or km below 5 mins

running about 60k/week at the moment. Some vague structure, but generally runs are what I feel like on the day. Typically a long run sunday 18km -ish 5min pace, during the week a mix of fartlek, interval sessions e.g 400s - 1600s. A few days just a 10km jog at work 5 - 5.15 pace.

All my run PBs have been done in duathlons/triathlons. I've never raced a 10km/HM/marathon when run fit. 19.45, 42, 1.37, 3.53. They were duathlon, OD, 70.3 and IM.

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I have been purely running since March. Had actually planned this before the Pandemic hit. Figured I needed a break from Triathlon Training.  Running was originally my strength and has now become my weakness, so decided a Run Focused Winter would do me good.

Today will be my 143rd consecutive day of running.  The first 100 days was all easy running, usually around 5m30s per km pace. Just concentrated on building mileage.  Made it up to 80km per week. This beat my previous best of 70km, so was pretty happy with that.

I'm now in the 'early quality' phase.  Introducing speed into some sessions. Short efforts, lots of recovery.  Timed the change well, because with the lockdown limited us to 60mins of exercise, I could not have maintained the mileage.

Original plans were to do an Ultra Trail Run around 50km. Was targeting the Surf Coast (half) Century.  But with pretty much all races in Victoria cancelled, I made the decision to target solo Time Trials instead.  I'll start with two 5km Time Trials (4 weeks apart) and then attempt two 10km Time Trials (again 4 weeks apart).  I've got reasonably 5km PBs from the first leg of Duathlons that I do fairly regularly.  But have never set a good 10km PB.  Strava shows my best 10km as part of a hilly Trail Running Race, so that should be easy to beat.

My final 10km TT is scheduled for 3rd Jan.  That will make it 9 months of training, about as much as I can handle.  After that I'll take a few weeks break and re-assess to determine my next goal. Hopefully the COVID-19 situation will be a bit clearer by then. I might even feel like getting back in the pool.

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Going off on a tangent, I tinkered around for 2 years with doing a lot of easy running especially with the long runs as per most people's suggestions in books, forums etc I would finish a long run feeling like I hadn't done anything which seemed to be the case when I raced. It was like I was underdone. So now I run faster than recommended. According to JD calc I should be running at between 5.18 and 5.50 pace for easy runs and I'm running at 4.50 - 5.05. 

I'm not going to run at 5.50 pace. I don't care what the experts say!  It hasn't worked for me.

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4 minutes ago, zed said:

Going off on a tangent, I tinkered around for 2 years with doing a lot of easy running especially with the long runs as per most people's suggestions in books, forums etc I would finish a long run feeling like I hadn't done anything which seemed to be the case when I raced. It was like I was underdone. So now I run faster than recommended. According to JD calc I should be running at between 5.18 and 5.50 pace for easy runs and I'm running at 4.50 - 5.05. 

I'm not going to run at 5.50 pace. I don't care what the experts say!  It hasn't worked for me.

Im with you I run more to feel, which for easy run days will be no slower than 5:30 pace even if I am running through trails with hills.

An epic hill day will be over 6 but that is closer to a rogain or hike clambering over rocks.

On a flat bit of bike path or dirt, easy will be 5 or better, there is no magic in running slow, other than you can do a lot of it and everyones slow is different.

I like the engament of running on trails and in the hills as I am limited to zwift for the bike until my gravel bike arrives next week!!

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4 minutes ago, zed said:

Going off on a tangent, I tinkered around for 2 years with doing a lot of easy running especially with the long runs as per most people's suggestions in books, forums etc I would finish a long run feeling like I hadn't done anything which seemed to be the case when I raced. It was like I was underdone. So now I run faster than recommended. According to JD calc I should be running at between 5.18 and 5.50 pace for easy runs and I'm running at 4.50 - 5.05. 

I'm not going to run at 5.50 pace. I don't care what the experts say!  It hasn't worked for me.

Going by the JD Calculator, 5m50s per km would be for someone with a 23min 5km PB.

You mentioned above that your 5km is 19m45s which the JD calculator prescibes an easy run pace of 5m05s per km

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1 minute ago, Rob said:

Going by the JD Calculator, 5m50s per km would be for someone with a 23min 5km PB.

You mentioned above that your 5km is 19m45s which the JD calculator prescibes an easy run pace of 5m05s per km

Gotcha.

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While I don't think we are in a position to argue with JD, think the run paces are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

At the end of an 80 km run week with cycling still happening, I might do a 8 k run and go 6 min Km, though most of my running assuming a perfectly flat windless universe will be 5 min.

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2 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Im with you I run more to feel, which for easy run days will be no slower than 5:30 pace even if I am running through trails with hills.

An epic hill day will be over 6 but that is closer to a rogain or hike clambering over rocks.

On a flat bit of bike path or dirt, easy will be 5 or better, there is no magic in running slow, other than you can do a lot of it and everyones slow is different.

I like the engament of running on trails and in the hills as I am limited to zwift for the bike until my gravel bike arrives next week!!

I rarely look at my watch when doing easy runs. However once the data is uploaded, I check my average HR.  If I've had a few runs in a row where my HR has been going too high, I will do an aerobic run where I consciously run to HR, just to reset my pace.

When running easy, I tend to daydream.  It is my 'me time' where I forget about the world.  The problem is that my running can become sloppy, and bad habits can start to form.  So every now and again I need to do a run where I concentrate on holding good technique.  This doesn't tend to be a problem when I start adding in some speed work.

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1 minute ago, Rob said:

I rarely look at my watch when doing easy runs. However once the data is uploaded, I check my average HR.  If I've had a few runs in a row where my HR has been going too high, I will do an aerobic run where I consciously run to HR, just to reset my pace.

When running easy, I tend to daydream.  It is my 'me time' where I forget about the world.  The problem is that my running can become sloppy, and bad habits can start to form.  So every now and again I need to do a run where I concentrate on holding good technique.  This doesn't tend to be a problem when I start adding in some speed work.

Yes, I look at the end and find that most long runs will be at HR 120 to 125 around 520 530 pace in the hills, well a bit slower now as I'm not getting as much distance in.

Slow running can be the enemy of good form and can lead to injuries

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4 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

While I don't think we are in a position to argue with JD, think the run paces are descriptive rather than prescriptive.

At the end of an 80 km run week with cycling still happening, I might do a 8 k run and go 6 min Km, though most of my running assuming a perfectly flat windless universe will be 5 min.

No calculator can be accurate for everyone.

I find his 'easy' pace is often optimistic for me. Worth noting that he made the 'easy run' paces slower in his second revision.  So I tend to gauge 'easy run' by heart rate.

But the threshold, interval & repetition paces work for me.

As for his race time predictor, they assume you are equally good across all distances which is rarely the case. I'm reasonably good over 5km, but get worse as the distance increases.  I have several friends who are the complete opposite.  Which then leads to the question, which PB do you use as input into the calculator

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34 minutes ago, zed said:

Going off on a tangent, I tinkered around for 2 years with doing a lot of easy running especially with the long runs as per most people's suggestions in books, forums etc I would finish a long run feeling like I hadn't done anything which seemed to be the case when I raced. It was like I was underdone. So now I run faster than recommended. According to JD calc I should be running at between 5.18 and 5.50 pace for easy runs and I'm running at 4.50 - 5.05. 

I'm not going to run at 5.50 pace. I don't care what the experts say!  It hasn't worked for me.

That's one way of looking at it.

By comparison, I'll tell you a story about a triathlete, let's call him "Ted".

For around 2 years, Ted did a lot of easy running especially focusing on long, slow runs. Ted adopted this approach following suggestions in books and on online forums. This allowed Ted to remain largely uninjured for a couple of years and he developed a strong running base. Following that period, Ted was able to restructure his training and sustain training paces with easy training runs in the 4.50 - 5.05 range, rather than 5.18 and 5.50 pace. 

Unfortunately, it's a little difficult to assess the progress of Ted's running over this period, as Ted has never raced a 10km, HM or marathon when run fit and all Ted's run PBs have been recorded in duathlons or triathlons.

I think Ted has taken a prudent long term approach to developing his running and I anticipate he'll continue to improve with further consistent training. I do think Ted's would benefit from the experience of racing over a variety of distances. I think he would be surprised and interested by the results.

;)

 

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6 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

That's one way of looking at it.

By comparison, I'll tell you a story about a triathlete, let's call him "Ted".

For around 2 years, Ted did a lot of easy running especially focusing on long, slow runs. Ted adopted this approach following suggestions in books and on online forums. This allowed Ted to remain largely uninjured for a couple of years and he developed a strong running base. Following that period, Ted was able to restructure his training and sustain training paces with easy training runs in the 4.50 - 5.05 range, rather than 5.18 and 5.50 pace. 

Unfortunately, it's a little difficult to assess the progress of Ted's running over this period, as Ted has never raced a 10km, HM or marathon when run fit and all Ted's run PBs have been recorded in duathlons or triathlons.

I think Ted has taken a prudent long term approach to developing his running and I anticipate he'll continue to improve with further consistent training. I do think Ted's would benefit from the experience of racing over a variety of distances. I think he would be surprised and interested by the results.

;)

 

Does he have a mate named Barney?

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36 minutes ago, trilobite said:

According to Kipchoge, lots of peeps doing longer events (ie marathon or IM) are going too fast in training:

 

A890C06B-CE14-47D4-90FA-B83B3C26B698.png

That's a lazy extrapolation.

Fast marathoners race the distance at faster than training pace, slow marathoners run/race the 42km at slower than training pace.

Training and race paces, long run frequency, duration and distance and weekly mileages aren't comparable between elite runners and those running over 4 hours.  

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9 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

But most peeps are running to fast in training 

Curious on what others on here think about working out how much slower than race pace to go (eg Daniels formula, MAF, etc)?

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I'll start by saying I get injured a lot. But I do push myself hard. I have a coach now as I have a goal of a sub 40 10K.  I have been soooo close twice, but than got injured and had to quit that goal for a while. Im back on it and trying to find some speed again, but a few set backs (rolled ankle, tibial stress reaction)

So coach had me doing lots of speed work. 2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total), an easy run (12) and a long run (16-21).  Intervals between 400m and 2km.  Coach says my slow and long runs are too fast (5.05-5.10) so I am consciously trying to slow them down to 5.20. It is hard as it feels awkward and ploddy. I also used to run slower than comfortable to run with a friend, and I'd end up with sore hips (hips are stable - I've done LOTS of work on that) So my form must drop when slow.

I also notice that on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me. I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued. I'm guessing the issue is more neuro-muscular???

Anyway, loving reading other peeps experiences.. 

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The BarryB running ‘plan’ from slowtwitch is the most valuable thing I ever got over there. It is best summarised in below link. 

http://www.jasonmcgee.me/barryp/running.html

Running is my relative strength. I come to hand pretty quickly on the run whether a 5k TT through to Ironman  run leg. I’m still yet to run an Ironman marathon as I’d like - that’s not a pace issue, more a swim/bike issue! 
Not observing pace zones in running can quickly lead to a big hole for me. I’m a 95% easy - 5% hard type - easy @ ~4.45 pace. Add swimming + biking - any quicker is just too many calories burnt that I cannot replace. 

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28 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I'll start by saying I get injured a lot. But I do push myself hard. I have a coach now as I have a goal of a sub 40 10K.  I have been soooo close twice, but than got injured and had to quit that goal for a while. Im back on it and trying to find some speed again, but a few set backs (rolled ankle, tibial stress reaction)

So coach had me doing lots of speed work. 2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total), an easy run (12) and a long run (16-21).  Intervals between 400m and 2km.  Coach says my slow and long runs are too fast (5.05-5.10) so I am consciously trying to slow them down to 5.20. It is hard as it feels awkward and ploddy. I also used to run slower than comfortable to run with a friend, and I'd end up with sore hips (hips are stable - I've done LOTS of work on that) So my form must drop when slow.

I also notice that on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me. I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued. I'm guessing the issue is more neuro-muscular???

Anyway, loving reading other peeps experiences.. 

This is getting complicated. That is quite a lot of quality (see Barry P below). If body feels run at end of long runs it's just saying I'm tired. That could be scheduling of long run, middle of week away from long bikes work well. It could be tired from the quality runs, can't really say without

overall weekly run volume, frequency and intensity and timing along with swim and bike.  running slow is not a problem and unlikely to injure, though trying to run too slow might, think running easy is a better way, just run for set time at that easy pace where you can chat.

Rolled ankle is unlucky, tibial stress reaction more likely from a bit too much too fast (done this one). 10 K is limited by aerobic fitness, when I'm doing 10 K well, I run at least 60 Km a week and the one quality session is something like 10 * 1 I km on one minute rest, these are all sub 4 min, but a bit like the swim thread, this is not fast in the context of the training, its just the race specific quality. 

I never got to Barry P phase 3

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

I'll start by saying I get injured a lot. But I do push myself hard. I have a coach now as I have a goal of a sub 40 10K.  I have been soooo close twice, but than got injured and had to quit that goal for a while. Im back on it and trying to find some speed again, but a few set backs (rolled ankle, tibial stress reaction)

So coach had me doing lots of speed work. 2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total), an easy run (12) and a long run (16-21).  Intervals between 400m and 2km.  Coach says my slow and long runs are too fast (5.05-5.10) so I am consciously trying to slow them down to 5.20. It is hard as it feels awkward and ploddy. I also used to run slower than comfortable to run with a friend, and I'd end up with sore hips (hips are stable - I've done LOTS of work on that) So my form must drop when slow.

I also notice that on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me. I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued. I'm guessing the issue is more neuro-muscular???

Anyway, loving reading other peeps experiences.. 

Plenty of peeps run <20min Park Runs (or did pre COVID) training almost exclusively at >5:30 min km pace.

So you may be doing your long runs quicker than you need to.

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37 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I'll start by saying I get injured a lot. But I do push myself hard. I have a coach now as I have a goal of a sub 40 10K.  I have been soooo close twice, but than got injured and had to quit that goal for a while. Im back on it and trying to find some speed again, but a few set backs (rolled ankle, tibial stress reaction)

So coach had me doing lots of speed work. 2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total), an easy run (12) and a long run (16-21).  Intervals between 400m and 2km.  Coach says my slow and long runs are too fast (5.05-5.10) so I am consciously trying to slow them down to 5.20. It is hard as it feels awkward and ploddy. I also used to run slower than comfortable to run with a friend, and I'd end up with sore hips (hips are stable - I've done LOTS of work on that) So my form must drop when slow.

I also notice that on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me. I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued. I'm guessing the issue is more neuro-muscular???

Anyway, loving reading other peeps experiences.. 

BF, a few things jump out at me in what you've written:

  • Lacking the required speed hasn't been the limiting the factor in achieving your goals, but rather lack of consistency. ie getting injured. How many weeks/months have you spent on the sidelines or on the reduced mileage comeback trail?
  • Coach says your "long runs are too fast". You say "on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me".  It sounds exactly like what one would expect to happen when running to fast, tiring toward the end.  If you leave "repetitive" out of that sentence, you've nailed it.
  • "I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" In other words, you have better training runs when you start at a more suitable pace.
  • You prefer to "throw in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" on top of two weekly interval sessions and only one easy run? It doesn't sound surprising when you say "I get injured a lot"
  • "2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total)" sounds like a lot of speedwork, particularly for an injury-prone runner.

I know you have a decent swimming background going back years. Coupled with tri and your time on the bike, you have developed a good aerobic capacity. More than enough to run 39:XX. But running is a different sport. It's more physically unforgiving on the body than swim, cycling or even mixing it up with tri. And we have to train to accommodate that. And it's often difficult for those who have a background in sports which physically allow a relatively high proportion of anaerobic training at higher heartrates to feel they aren't training "properly" at the lower intensities that consistent longterm run training demands.

Some of my favourite axioms I've gleaned from my time in the sport:

  • Speed kills. Way more than distance.
  • Consistency trumps everything else. Injury is the enemy of consistency.
  • No use having the motor unless you've built the chassis.

And the slightly derogatory and not directed at you, BF:

  • "Speedwork is the icing on the cake. You haven't even baked your cake yet."
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32 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

This is getting complicated. That is quite a lot of quality (see Barry P below). If body feels run at end of long runs it's just saying I'm tired. That could be scheduling of long run, middle of week away from long bikes work well. It could be tired from the quality runs, can't really say without

overall weekly run volume, frequency and intensity and timing along with swim and bike.  running slow is not a problem and unlikely to injure, though trying to run too slow might, think running easy is a better way, just run for set time at that easy pace where you can chat.

Rolled ankle is unlucky, tibial stress reaction more likely from a bit too much too fast (done this one). 10 K is limited by aerobic fitness, when I'm doing 10 K well, I run at least 60 Km a week and the one quality session is something like 10 * 1 I km on one minute rest, these are all sub 4 min, but a bit like the swim thread, this is not fast in the context of the training, its just the race specific quality. 

I never got to Barry P phase 3

Yes, It was a lot of quality (I'm not back there yet!), but I improved a lot. I reckon this time round it'll be a little different though...  But if at the end I feel bleugh, but am happily able to pick up the pace, doesn't this say that I'm not fatigued?

I think tibia was due to moving to a concrete surface for hard 400s a few weeks in a row and scheduling of runs back to back. Coach is very careful with increasing volume and intensity.  It was my fault going to concrete from the lovely grass at Stromlo... 

10x1km under 4mins would have been a v hard set for me. I'm better at going long than short.

4 minutes ago, trilobite said:

Plenty of peeps run <20min Park Runs (or did pre COVID) training almost exclusively at >5:30 min km pace.

So you may be doing your long runs quicker than you need to.

Oh, I agree!!! I am trying to slow them down.  But I have to "learn" a new slower pace...

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5 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

BF, a few things jump out at me in what you've written:

  • Lacking the required speed hasn't been the limiting the factor in achieving your goals, but rather lack of consistency. ie getting injured. How many weeks/months have you spent on the sidelines or on the reduced mileage comeback trail?
  • Coach says your "long runs are too fast". You say "on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me".  It sounds exactly like what one would expect to happen when running to fast, tiring toward the end.  If you leave "repetitive" out of that sentence, you've nailed it.
  • "I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" In other words, you have better training runs when you start at a more suitable pace.
  • You prefer to "throw in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" on top of two weekly interval sessions and only one easy run? It doesn't sound surprising when you say "I get injured a lot"
  • "2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total)" sounds like a lot of speedwork, particularly for an injury-prone runner.

I know you have a decent swimming background going back years. Coupled with tri and your time on the bike, you have developed a good aerobic capacity. More than enough to run 39:XX. But running is a different sport. It's more physically unforgiving on the body than swim, cycling or even mixing it up with tri. And we have to train to accommodate that. And it's often difficult for those who have a background in sports which physically allow a relatively high proportion of anaerobic training at higher heartrates to feel they aren't training "properly" at the lower intensities that consistent longterm run training demands.

Some of my favourite axioms I've gleaned from my time in the sport:

  • Speed kills. Way more than distance.
  • Consistency trumps everything else. Injury is the enemy of consistency.
  • No use having the motor unless you've built the chassis.

And the slightly derogatory and not directed at you, BF:

  • "Speedwork is the icing on the cake. You haven't even baked your cake yet."

This

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10 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I think tibia was due to moving to a concrete surface for hard 400s a few weeks in a row and scheduling of runs back to back. Coach is very careful with increasing volume and intensity.  It was my fault going to concrete from the lovely grass at Stromlo... 

Oh, I agree!!! I am trying to slow them down.  But I have to "learn" a new slower pace...

I'll add:

  • Don't be a slave to a training program. It's there to serve you, not the other way around.

You most probably are aware in hindsight, but there was little benefit to include 400 intervals on a hard surface. If you didn't have the grass available, a more suitable option may have been some steep 250-300 metre hill repeats on the road. Similar duration, similar anaerobic conditioning with a fraction of the impact.

Sean Williams trains all his athletes on softer surfaces purely to avoid injuries. Sean is one of our most successful distance running coaches.

There are a few ways to learn to slow your pace. Some will baulk at this, but one consideration may be to run longer. A weekly or fortnightly long run of 28 to 30km would necessitate you slow your current 16 to 21km long run pace.

Alternatively, where are you doing your long runs? Getting out on the trails will wipe off some speed, especially if you're out among the hills in the Brindies.

 

 


 

 


 


 

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10 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

I'll add:

  • Don't be a slave to a training program. It's there to serve you, not the other way around.

You most probably are aware in hindsight, but there was little benefit to include 400 intervals on a hard surface. If you didn't have the grass available, a more suitable option may have been some steep 250-300 metre hill repeats on the road. Similar duration, similar anaerobic conditioning with a fraction of the impact.

Sean Williams trains all his athletes on softer surfaces purely to avoid injuries. Sean is one of our most successful distance running coaches.

There are a few ways to learn to slow your pace. Some will baulk at this, but one consideration may be to run longer. A weekly or fortnightly long run of 28 to 30km would necessitate you slow your current 16 to 21km long run pace.

Alternatively, where are you doing your long runs? Getting out on the trails will wipe off some speed, especially if you're out among the hills in the Brindies.

 

 

 


 

 


 


 

Definitely and you don't even need to hit the Brindies, can get great trail work 400 metres from my house

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Paul, what’s your view on run/walk strategies? Have you seen it work? Surely across your ultra experience you would have seen quite a view models tried. 
I’ve heard it used alas people build mileage quickly - 1-2 min walks every 9-10mins. 

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Ive been running quite consistantly for the last few years - nothing else really until a few months ago when I started to ride again with the goal of working back into triathlons.

For me, I run without any idea of time and on feel only. I do use a treadmill to learn pace when targeting something. My best races have always been executed with at best, a watch telling me the time of day. 

I do try and do most runs with a purpose. Hills, fartlek sessions, long runs, and threshold efforts. I kind of work on a two week routine to space out the hard ones and will go out 5-6 times a week (re introducing swimming may see it drop back). My new favourite are bike sessions on a trainer with a run off the bike.

For as long as I have been running, it is in excusable that I dont know more about how to train for it. I dont know what JD or MAF is/are... I dont know what paces my runs should be done at or what volumes would be most productive....

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

Yes, It was a lot of quality (I'm not back there yet!), but I improved a lot. I reckon this time round it'll be a little different though...  But if at the end I feel bleugh, but am happily able to pick up the pace, doesn't this say that I'm not fatigued?

I think tibia was due to moving to a concrete surface for hard 400s a few weeks in a row and scheduling of runs back to back. Coach is very careful with increasing volume and intensity.  It was my fault going to concrete from the lovely grass at Stromlo... 

10x1km under 4mins would have been a v hard set for me. I'm better at going long than short.

Oh, I agree!!! I am trying to slow them down.  But I have to "learn" a new slower pace...

Run surface is something I’m surprised isn’t mentioned more often.

And equally surprised how many people choose to run on a concrete multi-use path instead of thr regularly mowed grass beside it (particularly when it isn’t wet with dew)🤔

Even back in 1960s Percy Cerutti was suggesting not to run on concrete, asphalt, etc...

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Not so much for building mileage quickly, more for building mileage gradually or progressively.

I've definitely seen it work successfully with lots of different objectives:

  • For those starting out in running eg Couch to 5km program
  • When returning/rehabbing from injury (Almost all of Trannie Brick's Coast to Kosci training in 2015 was walking, following surgery to reattach his quad tendons to the patella six months prior).
  • For supplementing high mileage when training for ultras.
  • To economise energy expenditure on hills in ultras.
  • As structured walk breaks in long ultras to enable runners to run faster for longer, (even elite competitors in 24 Hour races).

 

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11 minutes ago, CharlieB said:

Ive been running quite consistantly for the last few years - nothing else really until a few months ago when I started to ride again with the goal of working back into triathlons.

For me, I run without any idea of time and on feel only. I do use a treadmill to learn pace when targeting something. My best races have always been executed with at best, a watch telling me the time of day. 

I do try and do most runs with a purpose. Hills, fartlek sessions, long runs, and threshold efforts. I kind of work on a two week routine to space out the hard ones and will go out 5-6 times a week (re introducing swimming may see it drop back). My new favourite are bike sessions on a trainer with a run off the bike.

For as long as I have been running, it is in excusable that I dont know more about how to train for it. I dont know what JD or MAF is/are... I dont know what paces my runs should be done at or what volumes would be most productive....

Here for MAF: https://philmaffetone.com/

Here for Daniels

https://www.amazon.com.au/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack/dp/1450431836

Heaps on both of them if you stick their name in a search engine 

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Consistentcy trumps everything.  Personsally i think i have done the same session for everyday of the week for 18 months.

Of course duration changes in these.  Most importantly as well us the strength training to compliment this training.  

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I’m just enjoying running pain free again. I run every second day now. During lockdown, i cycle one day and run the next. Working from home means I have consistency in my workouts for the first time in a long time. I’m enjoying it. That’s all that matters.

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3 minutes ago, trilobite said:

Run surface is something I’m surprised isn’t mentioned more often.

And equally surprised how many people choose to run on a concrete multi-use path instead of thr regularly mowed grass beside it (particularly when it isn’t wet with dew)🤔

Even back in 1960s Percy Cerutti was suggesting not to run on concrete, asphalt, etc...

For generations of Australia's greatest distance runners, so many of training locations and camps of were on the trails of places like Ferny Creek or Falls Creek in Victoria, or Stromlo in the ACT.

The trails I grew up running on in Sydney included Farro's Hill, a steep pinch about a km long leading up toward Pennant Hills from the upper Lane Cove River. It's where John Farrington used to do his hill repeats and the surrounding trails were his backyard. John was three time City to Surf winner and three time Aust Marathon Champ in the early '70s.

About 5 years ago I was stayed a couple of times with a tri coach and her training group down at Falls Creek. They doing all their running on the roads, and the coach's belief was that trails posed an injury risk. Nothing was going to keep me off the Victorian high country trails with stunning expansive views of the alpine peaks. If it was worthy of attracting Australia's greatest runners, it was certainly good enough an aging hack like me.   

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1 hour ago, Greyman said:

I’m just enjoying running pain free again. I run every second day now. During lockdown, i cycle one day and run the next. Working from home means I have consistency in my workouts for the first time in a long time. I’m enjoying it. That’s all that matters.

Pain free? May I ask what caused the pain, where it was, and what solved it?

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I won't provide advice on what to do, but I will say what didn't work for me.

At 49 my running was improving quickly, back under 39min for 10km after being at 42+ only 18 months earlier. I attributed the gains to the speed work & lots of hard running I was doing in the forest.

Not long after that my knee started playing up, and since 50 years of age I haven't been able to run more than 200m without pain. I also attribute that to the speed work and lots of hard running in the forest.

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Firstly let me say that I really appreciate the feedback and am not contradicting what you (or anyone else) is saying - just trying to give some background, context and explanation to what I wrote above and where I am coming from...  And do not want to make this a "Fix BF's run" thread 🤣

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • Lacking the required speed hasn't been the limiting the factor in achieving your goals, but rather lack of consistency. ie getting injured. How many weeks/months have you spent on the sidelines or on the reduced mileage comeback trail?

Not as much as you would think...  I got 40:27 twice 2 years ago. I got PF (again!) but kept running on it (DUH!).  The altered gait (running out outside of foot) gave me a stress reaction (cuboid) and tenosynovitis.  4 weeks off, 4 week gradual return.  Since then I have run consistently (50km-ish), but no speed work - a bit of tempo stuff incorporated into long runs / runs off bike.  My top speed dropped massively due to no intervals. I could still run a sub 45min 10km Oly though

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • Coach says your "long runs are too fast". You say "on long runs, towards the end, my body just feels bleugh. The same repetitive pace kills me".  It sounds exactly like what one would expect to happen when running to fast, tiring toward the end.  If you leave "repetitive" out of that sentence, you've nailed it.

"too" fast.  Sorry, the linguist in me....  And no, no matter what pace I run at, after doing it for over an hour, the body wants to change pace/effort.  see next point for explanation

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • "I much prefer a progressive run, or throwing in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" In other words, you have better training runs when you start at a more suitable pace.

I didn't explain this well.  If I start a run at 5:10 and at 15km I'm still at 5:10, I feel bleugh.  If then, when I feel bleugh, I change the pace - move it to 5, then 4:50, then 4:40 over the next few km I feel great.  Or throw in some 4:30s for a few hundred meters every now and then, I feel great.  Surely the fact that I am able and happy and willing to do this would show that it is not fatigue, but neural? (or boredom?) I am asking and wondering here, not making a statement...

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • You prefer to "throw in some faster stuff at the end when I'm feeling fatigued" on top of two weekly interval sessions and only one easy run? It doesn't sound surprising when you say "I get injured a lot"

Ah no!  I was not clear.  These would NOT happen together.  I WAS doing 2 interval session with ONLY "slow" runs (2 years ago).  The faster bits during long runs only happened when I wasn't doing these 2 interval sessions.  (I'm not completely stupid!!!)

 

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • "2 interval sessions a week (about 12- 16km each in total)" sounds like a lot of speedwork, particularly for an injury-prone runner.

This was 2 years ago...  At this stage, injuries had only been a previous PF, sacral stressie and ITB over 10years (enough!)  Also, when I say 12 -16km in total, this included the warm up, reps, intervals and warm down - full session.  Actual speed would have been 6-8km each session.  So an average of 14km speed on a 70km week which is the 80/20 rule ???

 

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:
  • "Speedwork is the icing on the cake. You haven't even baked your cake yet."

I hear ya, but my cake is baked!  I've been running consistently for 15 years now...  

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:

I'll add:

  • Don't be a slave to a training program. It's there to serve you, not the other way around.

You most probably are aware in hindsight, but there was little benefit to include 400 intervals on a hard surface. If you didn't have the grass available, a more suitable option may have been some steep 250-300 metre hill repeats on the road. Similar duration, similar anaerobic conditioning with a fraction of the impact.

Sean Williams trains all his athletes on softer surfaces purely to avoid injuries. Sean is one of our most successful distance running coaches.

I was my fault - I had options.  I chose to try some concrete for change 🙄  also, historically hill intervals have given me shin splints - I obviously use my calves too much rather than my glutes... although on the bike my glutes are queen

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:

There are a few ways to learn to slow your pace. Some will baulk at this, but one consideration may be to run longer. A weekly or fortnightly long run of 28 to 30km would necessitate you slow your current 16 to 21km long run pace.

 

HA!  I did a marathon program and my pace never changed!  I'm hopeless!   (Or WAS hopeless - I am ACTIVELY trying to slow down and it IS working, but sloooooooowly

3 hours ago, Paul Every said:

Alternatively, where are you doing your long runs? Getting out on the trails will wipe off some speed, especially if you're out among the hills in the Brindies.

Guess how I rolled my ankle and completely severed a ligament?  Won't be trying that again for a while...

So there you go - an excuse for everything!  (Are you all praying for Mr BogFrog now? -  he is happy... honest)

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I was actually going to start a thread about my run experience over the last few months, but then thought, nah, that's actually about triathlon, no one wants to read that....but here goes.

I've struggled with an achilles/ heel complaint for many years which has really limited my run training, but I've still managed to keep pretty respectable run times, parkrun times just before covid were 21-21.30min.

WFH provided me the opportunity to move myself up to Bribie for about 3 months where I went out every afternoon for about 6-8km, nothing fast, in fact I was lucky if it was 6min/km. I also made a permanent switch to Nike pegasus at about this time, and it seemed to really be good for my foot.

Getting closer to Rainbow Beach tri, I thought I should try to get some harder running in and test myself to see where I was at, so I went along to Sherwood Forest Runners. Brisbane peeps may know this is just a casual run group that gather every Saturday morning for a timed run, original parkrun almost, been going since 1982. Choice of 2/4/6km. First run with them I averaged 4.20min/km for the 6km, I was pleasantly surprised. Been back three more times with a couple of weeks in between, pace has then gone 4.15min/km, 4.11min/km, 4.09min/km (yesterday). I've pushed myself each time, but none of these have been absolute limit.

Since being back in Brisbane, I've managed to do some longer runs for the first time in many years because the heel feels pretty good. Still hasnt been much intensity. 

So moral of the story, time in the legs, consistency is key. Looking forward to getting fast again.

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51 minutes ago, AA7 said:

 

I've struggled with an achilles/ heel complaint for many years which has really limited my run training, but I've still managed to keep pretty respectable run times, parkrun times just before covid were 21-21.30min.

 

What treatment have you got for it? Has anything worked?

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On 29/08/2020 at 9:16 AM, Paul Every said:

That's one way of looking at it.

By comparison, I'll tell you a story about a triathlete, let's call him "Ted".

For around 2 years, Ted did a lot of easy running especially focusing on long, slow runs. Ted adopted this approach following suggestions in books and on online forums. This allowed Ted to remain largely uninjured for a couple of years and he developed a strong running base. Following that period, Ted was able to restructure his training and sustain training paces with easy training runs in the 4.50 - 5.05 range, rather than 5.18 and 5.50 pace. 

Unfortunately, it's a little difficult to assess the progress of Ted's running over this period, as Ted has never raced a 10km, HM or marathon when run fit and all Ted's run PBs have been recorded in duathlons or triathlons.

I think Ted has taken a prudent long term approach to developing his running and I anticipate he'll continue to improve with further consistent training. I do think Ted's would benefit from the experience of racing over a variety of distances. I think he would be surprised and interested by the results.

;)

 

Actually rethinking my post, it wasn't quite right. 2017, 2018 I ran lots, lots of easy stuff, no injuries and ran well in races. Last year I had a more structured year with coaches and programs and raced poorly. My run especially was poor. I wasn't run fit and I blamed the long easy run, too slow. But really it was lack of volume. And that wasn't necessarily the fault of the program or the coaches really. 

The amount of running I had was probably enough. Just. 40 - 50km for a 70.3. Maybe up to 60km some weeks? But I find I don't really improve until I get past 50km a week. And what transpired was I missed a few critical run days because of various commitments. One weekend I was away camping with the kids, so I missed the 24km run. Which meant run volume went down from 50km to 26km for the week. And what is key is consistency. How much you actually average per week over the 3 month program. No good doing 2 weeks with 60km then 1 week with 25km. After Busso I looked at my weekly average for the 3 months, I felt it would have been about 45 - 50km, it was actually 30km/week! Compared to 70km/week for 2017, 2018. 

So yeah in short I agree with you. Ignore my previous post!

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I figure this is as good a place to post this as anywhere...

I have had persistent calf issues over the past few years. I am not tearing them, but they are 'locking' pretty regularly. Then I need to go to a physio, and suffer through having his elbow ripping through my calves so that I can start up again.

If you have had this sort of thing, and fixed the issue - what did you do?

The latest bit of advice that I have received is to gradually work down to totally flat shoes & gradually work on my whole leg flexibility.

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2 minutes ago, Nick777 said:

I figure this is as good a place to post this as anywhere...

I have had persistent calf issues over the past few years. I am not tearing them, but they are 'locking' pretty regularly. Then I need to go to a physio, and suffer through having his elbow ripping through my calves so that I can start up again.

If you have had this sort of thing, and fixed the issue - what did you do?

The latest bit of advice that I have received is to gradually work down to totally flat shoes & gradually work on my whole leg flexibility.

Strengthen the bloody things.  

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26 minutes ago, Nick777 said:

I figure this is as good a place to post this as anywhere...

I have had persistent calf issues over the past few years. I am not tearing them, but they are 'locking' pretty regularly. Then I need to go to a physio, and suffer through having his elbow ripping through my calves so that I can start up again.

If you have had this sort of thing, and fixed the issue - what did you do?

The latest bit of advice that I have received is to gradually work down to totally flat shoes & gradually work on my whole leg flexibility.

Calf raises are good.

However I strongly suspect the calf muscles are the victims and the problem is higher up near the hip.  Glute engagement, hip flexors, abductors, etc.  Once your muscles and tendons around the hip stop working properly, the lower muscles are forced to take on more load.

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14 minutes ago, Rob said:

Calf raises are good.

However I strongly suspect the calf muscles are the victims and the problem is higher up near the hip.  Glute engagement, hip flexors, abductors, etc.  Once your muscles and tendons around the hip stop working properly, the lower muscles are forced to take on more load.

Lets look at peak muscle forces when running. 

Soleus, hamstring, quads are predominate.  The faster you go the more demand on the iliopsaos and the hamstring (to create greater leg turnover). 

Test your soleus strength and hamstring strength before start blaming everything on the glutes.  

Screenshot_20200830-151916_Gallery.jpg

Edited by Fitness Buddy
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2 hours ago, zed said:

What treatment have you got for it? Has anything worked?

No treatment. I just put up with it. Like most inflammation issues, it would feel better as I warmed up.

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