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5 minutes ago, Tyno said:

No.

I'm not claiming expert status on anything.

Not suggesting you have.  And I'm not claiming that either 

I just want to be clear on what you mean by incarceration for minor offences, and how widespread it is

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I really didn't want to post on this site again and came back to check news on races opening up.. but here goes..  For most part I believe people have good hearts and good intentions. But really,

That is bizarre.   The Customer is 100% right.  Children of junkies and alco's born in housing commission have almost zero chance of breaking out of their place in society.  Not saying they cannot, bu

Define "successful". BTW Its a rhetorical question.  (So you don't have to answer).  What you and I might define as "financial Independence" and "successful" might have absolutely no correlation

As an example of how misdirected peoples rage is. In Chicago last weekend... This is where the outrage and protests should be focusing.. 

CHICAGO (WLS) -- As of Sunday morning, 60 people were shot, 9 fatally, across Chicago during Father's Day weekend.

Four minors, including a 3-year-old boy, were among the victims who were fatally shot, police said.

A teenage girl, 2 teen boys and a 3-year-old are among the dead.

A 27-year-old man was driving his 3-year-old son in the 600 block of North Central Avenue when a blue Honda pulled up and fired into their car just before 6:30 Saturday night, according to police.

Police said the man was only grazed, but the 3-year-old was hit in the back and later died.

The father drove the boy to West Suburban Medical Center in Oak Park, police said, but the boy was pronounced dead shortly after arriving. The father was also treated for a graze wound to the abdomen.

"Our city's collective heart breaks... There are simply no words to describe such a heinous, unconscionable act of cowardice to shoot at a toddler," Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot tweeted after hearing of the incident.

 

And here is an example of the problem. People are happy to have their cute little protests, post online how great they are in saying a murdering policeman was a bad man, all while children and being shot and killed and not a single public murmer.

If I was black I'd be questioning who my true enemy was. 

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6 minutes ago, more said:

 

If I was black I'd be questioning who my true enemy was. 

But you're not. Why don't you give them the courtesy of determining who their true enemies are?

Maybe you should get "The Talk"

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4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

But you're not. Why don't you give them the courtesy of determining who their true enemies are?

Maybe you should get "The Talk"

They've been lied to for decades about who their true enemy is 

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2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

But you're not. Why don't you give them the courtesy of determining who their true enemies are?

Maybe you should get "The Talk"

And that's why nothing will change. Protesting against a white cop killing a black man while in a single weekend you have 60 people shot, including 4 children! You could totally eliminate the police problem in America and yet nothing will change for the black community. They will still be shooting each other just like this past weekend. 

A white and black community who promotes black gangster lifestyle as cool. A white and black community that glorifies guns and violence and inturn promotes it in the black community.  White and black people promoting RnB/rap music which glorifies murder, drug use and calling women bitches and hos. And then you have these same 'woke' consumers saying they think the biggest problem facing black people are white police? 

And then getting back to Australia. You have someone like me trying to draw attention to the serious issues facing the aboriginal community and I get called 'that guy' 

And we wonder why nothing changes, nothing improves.. 

 

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Yeah, I get that, but doesn't it make you sad to see really nice, law abiding, well dressed, educated afro americans getting thrown down onto the wet ground in Winter by police who have pulled them over for no particular reason for doing so?  And how many time would you put up with it before you cracked it?

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1 hour ago, more said:

And that's why nothing will change. Protesting against a white cop killing a black man while in a single weekend you have 60 people shot, including 4 children! 

Probably with illegally obtained hand guns, like the vast majority of gun murders

Quick, get down to Alabama and tell them to hand over their rifles.  After all, nobody needs guns, because the police will look after them 

Oh and by the way, defund the police...

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53 minutes ago, more said:

 

And then getting back to Australia. You have someone like me trying to draw attention to the serious issues facing the aboriginal community and I get called 'that guy' 

And we wonder why nothing changes, nothing improves.. 

 

Can you see how deflecting attention from one issue because you think other issues are more important could result in nothing getting done about either issue?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Can you see how deflecting attention from one issue because you think other issues are more important could result in nothing getting done about either issue?

 

 

It's only deflecting because you say it is. Id call it raising awareness. Kinda like saying talking about a house burning down is deflecting from the termite damage in the shed out the back.. 

People don't want to talk about domestic abuse or rape of minors because it's an uncomfortable topic and would involve accepting some of the aboriginals are doing the wrong thing. 

It's a much easier discussion to have about white police. 

 

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1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Yeah, I get that, but doesn't it make you sad to see really nice, law abiding, well dressed, educated afro americans getting thrown down onto the wet ground in Winter by police who have pulled them over for no particular reason for doing so?  And how many time would you put up with it before you cracked it?

And that's why I say they don't know who their real enemies are. It's the white people hijacking their protests, because it's easier for them to feel better about themselves by attacking white police than tackling some of the real issues. 

Like I have already mentioned, you could eliminate every single white policeman and the life of the average black American would be no better off. 

They are being held down by white people no doubt, but it's not the white policeman. It's the democrats making them reliant on a handout culture, it's the white media glorifying a violent gun and gangsta culture, it's a community making them feel that they can blame others and not take accountability for their actions. 

Asians suffer terrible racism, come also from extreme poverty yet prosper, why? 

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14 minutes ago, Tyno said:

I’ll take that as a No. 

Can you see how the problems being experienced by aboriginals every day are much much for severe and life threatening than a white policemen? 

 

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The statistics pointed out several times above that deaths in custody is in fact less of a problem for the aboriginal community than it is for the non-indigenous (per head of prison population.)  The number of aboriginal deaths in custody is due to the high rate of imprisonment, yet there are numerous studies that indicate that sentencing rates are similar for indigenous and non-indigenous when controlled for offence, criminal history, etc.

If you think that issues of rampant substance abuse, violence and sexual trauma aren't at very least strongly linked then I don't think it's More who has the problem with ignorance.  They are the same issue.  You don't fix a problem by focusing on the outcome rather than the cause.

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14 minutes ago, more said:

Can you see how the problems being experienced by aboriginals every day are much much for severe and life threatening than a white policemen? 

 

Yes, I can, but it doesn’t mean you can’t do something about deaths in custody. 

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15 minutes ago, Stikman said:

The number of aboriginal deaths in custody is due to the high rate of imprisonment, yet there are numerous studies that indicate that sentencing rates are similar for indigenous and non-indigenous when controlled for offence, criminal history, etc.

 

So, reduce the imprisonment rate. This is one area that can have positive results. Like the move away from imprisoning people for unpaid fines. 
If the argument is to address the linkages between substance abuse, dv, sexual assault, incarcerations etc then that’s positive too. 
but not the message I was getting from more’s posts. 
 

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41 minutes ago, Tyno said:

So, reduce the imprisonment rate.

 

Sounds great.  What's your suggestion?  A prize wheel they spin on sentencing with a "get out of gaol free" slot?

Can't put people in gaol.  Can't fine them.  What's left?  Community service?  Corporal punishment?

Or do we say that simply because they are aboriginal they should automatically receive a lighter sentence?  Sentencing already takes account of the factors of disadvantage the individual suffers.  If we say that simply being indigenous is a mitigating factor what are we really saying?  That they can't help themselves?  That it's in their nature?  I think there might be a problem with that.

The argument is to address the levels substance abuse and violence (domestic, sexual and other.)  The first step in that is acknowledging that there is a problem that is not caused by race and therefore should not be treated as if dealing with it properly is racism.

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1 hour ago, Stikman said:

If we say that simply being indigenous is a mitigating factor what are we really saying?  That they can't help themselves?  That it's in their nature?  I think there might be a problem with that.

I think this might really be part of the problem - part of the reason many can't move ahead.

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3 hours ago, Tyno said:

So, reduce the imprisonment rate. This is one area that can have positive results. Like the move away from imprisoning people for unpaid fines. 
If the argument is to address the linkages between substance abuse, dv, sexual assault, incarcerations etc then that’s positive too. 
but not the message I was getting from more’s posts. 
 

What a terrible bloody idea. So someone who rapes a child should get a lesser sentence just because of the colour of their skin? Talk about racism. 

I tend to lean towards a different school of thought-equal punishment for everyone regardless of skin colour. Unless of course you think there is something inherently different with aboriginals that makes them incapable of determining right from wrong?

HOWEVER aboriginals should be given every opportunity to succeed possible. Free education plus additional financial incentives for attendance. Companies should be given increased financial incentives to hire aboriginals.

That being said the answer isn't necessarily as simple as this unfortunately. As I've already mentioned aboriginals in remote communities really don't have the same desire for money or material things like we do. It's a complex problem where financial incentives don't necessarily have merit. 

They need positive role models who promote hard work and dignity, not self pity and blame. 

They need to ban alcohol and bring back the tribal leaders to manage their communities and instill some dignity and self respect. It's a wonderful culture with wonderful people who have been poisoned by our way of life. 

Creating financial independence and creating examples of successful aboriginal leaders is how you break the cycle. Not by telling crooks they can do crime and not have to worry about being punished. 

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29 minutes ago, more said:

HOWEVER aboriginals should be given every opportunity to succeed possible. Free education plus additional financial incentives for attendance. Companies should be given financial incentives to hire aboriginals. 

Creating financial independence and creating examples of successful aboriginal leaders is how you break the cycle

Define "successful".

BTW Its a rhetorical question.  (So you don't have to answer).  What you and I might define as "financial Independence" and "successful" might have absolutely no correlation to reality when it comes to an indigenous community in the middle of the NT,  the Kimberley or Cape York.     We are (or have been) triathletes and as such we are incredibly focused on very specific goals that apply specifically to us as individuals.  Our definition of "success" is based on our goals and whether we achieve them.  Everybody's target goals (and therefore definition of success) is different.     

And that, I think, is part of the problem when it comes to dealing with the issues with indigenous people.   How can you hit the target goal if you don't know what it is in the first place?   And the way things stand at the moment, we (the white mob) don't know what the target goal is.  So we chuck shedloads of money at "it" and hope we get close.  Obviously this approach has worked well...not.  All we've achieved is that we've created a vast mob of welfare dependent individuals who have little motivation and no idea how to get out of the cycle they now find themselves in. 

I reckon the way to deal with this is to leave it in the hands of the TO leadership groups and Elders to determine what the target is for their specific community.   Let them develop the initiatives and then have the Government  provide funding for those initiatives.  It may be that some of these initiatives don't even need money to get off the ground.

Education is the key.  But not necessarily the school based learning that most of us went through.  Teach the kids all the stuff they need to survive in the white mans world today but also their traditional stuff as well.   

This approach is already working in some communities with  promising results.  The introduction of "dry" communities was a good starting point for many of these communities.   Getting the kids to attend school by changing the curriculum program to one specifically targets that demographic.  

Yes, give them every opportunity to succeed but don't tell them what their "success" is.  Let them tell us what they think success is and together we all can work towards it. 

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1 hour ago, more said:

What a terrible bloody idea. So someone who rapes a child should get a lesser sentence just because of the colour of their skin? Talk about racism. 

Not by telling crooks they can do crime and not have to worry about being punished. 

I am completely baffled how you and stikman can read that simple sentence in my post and come up with your interpretations.

Reducing un-necessary incarceration isn’t giving a sexual predator a lesser sentence. 
Things like not sending a person to jail for unpaid parking fines, but giving them community service instead are what I’m talking about. 
Note any person.

Those people who are disproportionately represented in imprisonment rates for minor things will benefit most. If stikman’s stats hold up, there’s no real benefit for indigenous people, but that’s to be seen. 
The greater societal issues for indigenous communities haven’t been solved by “European” based interventions anywhere and I don’t know how you solve that. It’s painfully evident we haven’t come close so far. 

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Mate if you think they are ending up in prison because of one or two unpaid small fines then you've got the wrong end of the stick.  Likewise if you don't think they seek other remedies like community service first.

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2 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

Define "successful".

BTW Its a rhetorical question.  (So you don't have to answer).  What you and I might define as "financial Independence" and "successful" might have absolutely no correlation to reality when it comes to an indigenous community in the middle of the NT,  the Kimberley or Cape York.     We are (or have been) triathletes and as such we are incredibly focused on very specific goals that apply specifically to us as individuals.  Our definition of "success" is based on our goals and whether we achieve them.  Everybody's target goals (and therefore definition of success) is different.     

And that, I think, is part of the problem when it comes to dealing with the issues with indigenous people.   How can you hit the target goal if you don't know what it is in the first place?   And the way things stand at the moment, we (the white mob) don't know what the target goal is.  So we chuck shedloads of money at "it" and hope we get close.  Obviously this approach has worked well...not.  All we've achieved is that we've created a vast mob of welfare dependent individuals who have little motivation and no idea how to get out of the cycle they now find themselves in. 

I reckon the way to deal with this is to leave it in the hands of the TO leadership groups and Elders to determine what the target is for their specific community.   Let them develop the initiatives and then have the Government  provide funding for those initiatives.  It may be that some of these initiatives don't even need money to get off the ground.

Education is the key.  But not necessarily the school based learning that most of us went through.  Teach the kids all the stuff they need to survive in the white mans world today but also their traditional stuff as well.   

This approach is already working in some communities with  promising results.  The introduction of "dry" communities was a good starting point for many of these communities.   Getting the kids to attend school by changing the curriculum program to one specifically targets that demographic.  

Yes, give them every opportunity to succeed but don't tell them what their "success" is.  Let them tell us what they think success is and together we all can work towards it. 

Pretty much what I said..... financial incentive and material things don't have the same relevance to outback communities as us. That's why I said the elders need to play a major part in reform. 

But the city dwelling aboriginals are a different story completely. 

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On 26/06/2020 at 7:30 AM, Peter said:

I didn’t make up the 90%.  
 

read the article. 

I’m sorry I didn’t reply earlier but I’ve been pretty busy.

Yeh I know you didn’t make up the 90% Peter. but the 3 year old article you chose to quote and link to has been corrected many many times since in the press, by the responsible (🤔 most would say irresponsible) department, and also in both WA and Federal Parliaments. I’m surprised you didn’t notice this when you were searching, and equally surprised you’d choose to quote a UK website that rarely passes fact-checks.

 While every instance of sexual abuse is tragic and disgusting, the true figure of 25% doesn’t paint the same picture as the figure of 90% that you have used to resurrect this thread. For an issue like sexual assault, and for problems as serious as those faced by the community at Roebourne, I think it’s important to use creditable facts and figures.



Something positive that has since been established in Roebourne is a series of 24/7 safe houses throughout the community where anyone at risk can go for protection and assistance. It’s a positive step that according to local police seems to be helping. I believe it was initiated by a group of local indigenous women  too.

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I didn’t even know it was 3 yrs old. It just popped up in my tweeter feed.  
my fault for not verifying all the facts but as I’m not the one who wrote the article, that’s not my job. 
 

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On 26/06/2020 at 6:41 PM, -- AJ -- said:

Define "successful".

BTW Its a rhetorical question.  (So you don't have to answer).  What you and I might define as "financial Independence" and "successful" might have absolutely no correlation to reality when it comes to an indigenous community in the middle of the NT,  the Kimberley or Cape York.     We are (or have been) triathletes and as such we are incredibly focused on very specific goals that apply specifically to us as individuals.  Our definition of "success" is based on our goals and whether we achieve them.  Everybody's target goals (and therefore definition of success) is different.     

And that, I think, is part of the problem when it comes to dealing with the issues with indigenous people.   How can you hit the target goal if you don't know what it is in the first place?   And the way things stand at the moment, we (the white mob) don't know what the target goal is.  So we chuck shedloads of money at "it" and hope we get close.  Obviously this approach has worked well...not.  All we've achieved is that we've created a vast mob of welfare dependent individuals who have little motivation and no idea how to get out of the cycle they now find themselves in. 

I reckon the way to deal with this is to leave it in the hands of the TO leadership groups and Elders to determine what the target is for their specific community.   Let them develop the initiatives and then have the Government  provide funding for those initiatives.  It may be that some of these initiatives don't even need money to get off the ground.

Education is the key.  But not necessarily the school based learning that most of us went through.  Teach the kids all the stuff they need to survive in the white mans world today but also their traditional stuff as well.   

This approach is already working in some communities with  promising results.  The introduction of "dry" communities was a good starting point for many of these communities.   Getting the kids to attend school by changing the curriculum program to one specifically targets that demographic.  

Yes, give them every opportunity to succeed but don't tell them what their "success" is.  Let them tell us what they think success is and together we all can work towards it. 

That really sounds like positive and constructive reform, placing the initiation and onus on the Aboriginal communities to have a cohesive voice, determination and input in programs that affect the future of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.

Imagine if such an initiative was supported by both sides of the political divide to get it started, but once begun, if they assembled several hundred or even a thousand community representatives from across Australia to formulate a united heartfelt statement as a way to progress their own destiny.

It would then only require bipartisan recognition, support and endorsement to move forward.

Uluru would be a strongly symbolic location to convene such a meeting. It could then be called the Uluru Statement from the Heart.

Surely if things were progressed so far in such a fashion, it wouldn't just be consigned to the rubbish bin of federal politics?

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On 26/06/2020 at 6:41 PM, -- AJ -- said:

I reckon the way to deal with this is to leave it in the hands of the TO leadership groups and Elders to determine what the target is for their specific community.   Let them develop the initiatives and then have the Government  provide funding for those initiatives.  It may be that some of these initiatives don't even need money to get off the ground.

 

 

9 hours ago, Paul Every said:

That really sounds like positive and constructive reform, placing the initiation and onus on the Aboriginal communities to have a cohesive voice, determination and input in programs that affect the future of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.

Imagine if such an initiative was supported by both sides of the political divide to get it started, but once begun, if they assembled several hundred or even a thousand community representatives from across Australia to formulate a united heartfelt statement as a way to progress their own destiny.

It would then only require bipartisan recognition, support and endorsement to move forward.

Uluru would be a strongly symbolic location to convene such a meeting. It could then be called the Uluru Statement from the Heart.

Surely if things were progressed so far in such a fashion, it wouldn't just be consigned to the rubbish bin of federal politics?

Nobody is gonna like this, but this is my experience.

I agree with the sentiments/ideas above, but having watched aboriginal people attempt 'self-determination', it often ends badly - though this might more be the case with the urban/'modern' indigenous communities.  I've had no experience with remote communities.

If you thought white 'politics' was a nasty factional mess, you should see indigenous politics.  There are so many different tribes that have historical axes to grind with each other.  And time & time again I've seen the 'big men' of a local indigenous community hijack the agenda, and the cash.  Those are the blokes driving around in the brand new Commodore & using Govt funding to pay for their daughters wedding photographer while the rest of the mob go nowhere.

And I don't think there is any magical 'future' that all indigenous people could agree on.  The insightful ones want opportunities for their people in a modern world and are moving forward.  The twisted and bitter ones want all the invading white @#$%s to fark off, but keep sending us the money, houses and cars please.

The only urban indigenous people I've seen who lift themselves out of the mire are the ones who have largely accepted the modern white world which dominates Australia, made some degree of peace with the past and with us and found a way to move on and carve out a niche for themselves.  Typically they do not appear to be tightly tied to an indigenous group/community and can rise above being called out as traitors for working with the white fellas.  

Like the bloke who lives around the corner and is the aboriginal liaison officer with the police.  Always smiling, has made his peace with we nasty whiteys, has constructive employment, does his own thing, integrates well with everyone.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

 

Nobody is gonna like this, but this is my experience.

I agree with the sentiments/ideas above, but having watched aboriginal people attempt 'self-determination', it often ends badly - though this might more be the case with the urban/'modern' indigenous communities.  I've had no experience with remote communities.

If you thought white 'politics' was a nasty factional mess, you should see indigenous politics.  There are so many different tribes that have historical axes to grind with each other.  And time & time again I've seen the 'big men' of a local indigenous community hijack the agenda, and the cash.  Those are the blokes driving around in the brand new Commodore & using Govt funding to pay for their daughters wedding photographer while the rest of the mob go nowhere.

And I don't think there is any magical 'future' that all indigenous people could agree on.  The insightful ones want opportunities for their people in a modern world and are moving forward.  The twisted and bitter ones want all the invading white @#$%s to fark off, but keep sending us the money, houses and cars please.

The only urban indigenous people I've seen who lift themselves out of the mire are the ones who have largely accepted the modern white world which dominates Australia, made some degree of peace with the past and with us and found a way to move on and carve out a niche for themselves.  Typically they do not appear to be tightly tied to an indigenous group/community and can rise above being called out as traitors for working with the white fellas.  

Like the bloke who lives around the corner and is the aboriginal liaison officer with the police.  Always smiling, has made his peace with we nasty whiteys, has constructive employment, does his own thing, integrates well with everyone.

 

 

Nothing wrong with telling the truth. Many peoples attitudes towards others are based on their interactions, and yet there are plenty of people who have never had an interaction feel their opinion is more valid. 

I have a mate who was a typical city boy and had no ill feelings towards aboriginals. Moved up to Broome for a few years and came back as the most 'racist' guy you could meet. 

However his attitude towards aboriginals was shaped on being bashed by a group of them after walking home one night, having his car constantly vandalised, having things stolen, having his colleges repeat similar stories weekly of their interactions. Pretty much every experience he had with them was a bad one. 

It would be very hard for someone like him to not feel ill will towards the group due to his interaction with the few. 

But I as a white male should feel responsibility or remorse for something someone did to an aboriginal 200 years ago??

 

 

 

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