Deaths in custody

[KieranR 1,885]

Black white, whatever colour you are- you won’t die in custody if you don’t do anything wrong or suspicious in the first place! 
 

Don’t wanna die in custody, stay out of trouble

I might come across as a prick for this but Fark me im over it.  
 

same as the blow up about Rio Tinto destroying Ancient caves at Jukkan gorge in the Pilbara.  Was legally agreed in 2013, yes I agree it shouldn’t have happened (it’s important to preserve significant history) but when it’s agreed, and no doubt financial compensation was made and accepted then you complain 7 years after it was approved and the blast is done..........

[Peter 4,047]

You are only saying what 95% of people think. And that’s totally okay. 
 

if you were a cop and you killed someone in custody, that isn’t cool. 
 

but yeah, don’t be a criminal and scumbag and go to jail in the first place. 

[Tyno 2,403]

2 hours ago, Peter said:

but yeah, don’t be a criminal and scumbag and go to jail in the first place

I understand the sentiment, but when you have people going to jail for unpaid parking fines, you're hardly talking the scum of the earth.

 

[oldave 176]

29 minutes ago, Tyno said:

I understand the sentiment, but when you have people going to jail for unpaid parking fines, you're hardly talking the scum of the earth.

 

How many people go to jail for unpaid parking fines? For how long? Neverheard of it

[skel 517]

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/retracing-ms-dhus-path-from-$200-fine-to-death-in-custody/8771134

A well know case 

[Tyno 2,403]

As Skel said, Ms Dhu is the most widely publicised case, but it's not uncommon in WA

https://au.gofundme.com/f/bfvnvt-freethepeople is a charity page to try to raise funds to get women out of jail if they are there for unpaid fines.

 

[Ex-Hasbeen 8,122]

1 minute ago, skel said:

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/retracing-ms-dhus-path-from-$200-fine-to-death-in-custody/8771134

A well know case 

I thought WA was the last state to do this, and even they have passed legislation that makes it very difficult to happen now. Most courts will impose community service these days wouldn't they?

 

[oldave 176]

10 minutes ago, skel said:

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/retracing-ms-dhus-path-from-$200-fine-to-death-in-custody/8771134

A well know case 

So very few then.

[-- AJ -- 472]

3 hours ago, KieranR said:

Black white, whatever colour you are- you won’t die in custody if you don’t do anything wrong or suspicious in the first place! 

One would like to assume this is true 100% of the time.  Unfortunately, theres been too much evidence to suggest that some places being "non-white" is a suspicious act in itself.

[skel 517]

37 minutes ago, oldave said:

So very few then.

I wonder has my evidence has changed your view slighty? You stated "never heard of it". I did a 10 second Google search and found an example. Tyno provided example of a Go Fund me page specifically to those in WA, which is made up mostly of single indigenous mothers in jail in WA, who have unpaid fines. This is another piece of evidence that it has happened.....in fact approximately 200 times (if you read the information on this page).

Edited June 13 by skel

[-- AJ -- 472]

 

1 minute ago, skel said:

I wonder has my evidence has changed your view slighty? You stated "never heard of it". I did a 10 second Google search and found an example. 

I think theres more to that case than simple unpaid fines.  

[oldave 176]

7 minutes ago, skel said:

I wonder has my evidence has changed your view slighty? You stated "never heard of it". I did a 10 second Google search and found an example. Tyno provided example of a Go Fund me pay specifically to those in WA, which is made up mostly of single indigenous mothers women in jail in WA, who have unpaid fines. This is another piece of evidence example that it has happened..... in fact approximately 200 times (if you read the information on this page).

You found ONE example. Tyno's example is a Go Fund me page set up by Debbie Kilroy, a political activist who spent jail time for drug dealing. 

[Tyno 2,403]

3 minutes ago, oldave said:

You found ONE example. Tyno's example is a Go Fund me page set up by Debbie Kilroy, a political activist who spent jail time for drug dealing. 

How many dead women would it take for you to acknowledge the issue?

 

[oldave 176]

What's dead women have to do with going to jail for unpaid parking fines?

[Peter 4,047]

Here’s a simple bit of advice.  Pay your fines.  Or even better don’t get fined in the first place. 
 

 

[IronJimbo 1,383]

43 minutes ago, Peter said:

Here’s a simple bit of advice.  Pay your fines.  Or even better don’t get fined in the first place. 
 

 

That sort of common sense has no place here...

[IronmanFoz 1,635]

2 hours ago, Tyno said:

As Skel said, Ms Dhu is the most widely publicised case, but it's not uncommon in WA

https://au.gofundme.com/f/bfvnvt-freethepeople is a charity page to try to raise funds to get women out of jail if they are there for unpaid fines.

 

Don't park illegally - problem solved. I might go into politics!!!

[Stikman 1,796]

Indigenous deaths in custody is a non-issue from a racial bias perspective.  The statistics are very, very clear.  An indigenous person in gaol is far less likely to die than a non-indigenous person in gaol, from all causes including natural.  On the outside the situation is heavily reversed but if we were to look at that properly we'd have to confront some very ugly truths that we simply don't want to.

[IronJimbo 1,383]

1 hour ago, Stikman said:

Indigenous deaths in custody is a non-issue from a racial bias perspective.  The statistics are very, very clear.  An indigenous person in gaol is far less likely to die than a non-indigenous person in gaol, from all causes including natural.  On the outside the situation is heavily reversed but if we were to look at that properly we'd have to confront some very ugly truths that we simply don't want to.

Correct

But pretending to care more than everyone else is much easier than actually doing stuff

[Tyno 2,403]

So, the argument here is it’s ok for people to die in jail because it happens to everyone?

[Ex-Hasbeen 8,122]

45 minutes ago, Tyno said:

So, the argument here is it’s ok for people to die in jail because it happens to everyone?

No, Stickman's comment was "from a racial bias perspective. Any death in custody is wrong, though there are a few rock-spiders that I wouldn't care if they mysteriously turned up dead one morning.

While his comment may be statistically correct from the way it was presented. as usual, stats can be made to tell what-ever story you want.

Yes it is true that an indigenous person in jail is less likely to die than a white person in jail, BUT, an indigenous person is more likely to die in jail than a white person.

[Stikman 1,796]

3 hours ago, Tyno said:

So, the argument here is it’s ok for people to die in jail because it happens to everyone?

People die everywhere, every day.  Very, very, very few deaths in custody are from any cause directly related to their being in custody.  The vast majority are from natural causes and I daresay (this is just an educated guess) probably receive better medical care from within the system than they would have outside of it.

If your aim is zero deaths in custody then you simply can't have people in gaol at all.  That's fine if you're prepared to deal with the implications of that.

[Turts 2,958]

25 minutes ago, Stikman said:

People die everywhere, every day.  Very, very, very few deaths in custody are from any cause directly related to their being in custody.  The vast majority are from natural causes and I daresay (this is just an educated guess) probably receive better medical care from within the system than they would have outside of it.

If your aim is zero deaths in custody then you simply can't have people in gaol at all.  That's fine if you're prepared to deal with the implications of that.

I heard that  death in custody also includes those that might be evading police and are killed, such as a car chase and crash etc. 

Not sure if thats true. Anyone?

[Mike Del 469]

I recently read a report on the mandatory sentencing of people changed with assaulting police and other emergency service workers. Something which I’m sure all of us would agree is a good thing to protect our police, ambo’s and firemen. The report dissected the assaults by occupation, and into 3 categories, assaults resulting in serious injuries (hospital admission),  assaults resulting in minor injuries  (some medical attention needed) & assaults resulting in no injuries at all and requiring zero medical attention.

For assaults on police resulting in serious injuries, a total of 5% were committed by aboriginals, 7% of minor injury assaults were committed by aboriginals, and  78% of assaults resulting in no injuries to the officer at all were committed by aboriginals.
The report also noted that unlike the police figures, there was almost no difference in the percentages when assaults against ambo’s and firefighters were examined.

The report came to the conclusion that the level of assault/violence many police officers required to proceed with a charge of assaulting a police officer differed considerably depending on the race of the offender.

Edited June 14 by Mike Del

[Stikman 1,796]

3 hours ago, Turts said:

I heard that  death in custody also includes those that might be evading police and are killed, such as a car chase and crash etc. 

Not sure if thats true. Anyone?

Yes, it's true.  Even if the police have called off the chase I understand.

[symo 116]

White fragility in large doses on this site

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-custody-and-why-we-do-it

[Peter 4,047]

14 minutes ago, symo said:

White fragility in large doses on this site

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/11/deaths-inside-how-we-track-indigenous-deaths-in-custody-and-why-we-do-it

Wow I can’t believe so many are in jail.  28.6% is massive.  Would love to know does this include people in for a night (drunk tank).  Not that it would really matter. But jezz. Imagine if they just weren’t doing bad things and didn’t commit crimes. 
 

Quote

In 1991, 14.3% of the male prison population in Australia was Indigenous. In March 2020 it was 28.6%. And, according to data released by the Australian Bureau of Statistics this month, 4.7% of all Indigenous men are in jail compared with just 0.3% of all non-Indigenous men.

The rest of that story is excellent and certainly proves this is an issue when they are locked up.  
 

but I still stand by my comment. Just don’t do illegal stuff. 
 

im late 40s and never robbed someone. Stolen something. Beaten someone up. Sold or taken drugs.  Raped someone.  Killed someone .
 

Guessing the same as 99% of people on this site.  Probably why 99% haven’t been or currently in jail.  

[IronJimbo 1,383]

30 minutes ago, Peter said:

im late 40s and never robbed someone. Stolen something. Beaten someone up. Sold or taken drugs.  Raped someone.  Killed someone .

That's because our evil, racist, oppressive society hasn't forced you to do any of those things, you see

[The Customer 2,193]

5 hours ago, Peter said:

Im late 40s and never robbed someone. Stolen something. Beaten someone up. Sold or taken drugs.  Raped someone.  Killed someone .

 

Guessing the same as 99% of people on this site.  Probably why 99% haven’t been or currently in jail.  

That's a very strange thing to say. About 6 members / former members names popped into my head that have done some of those things and they're just the ones I know about. There would be plenty of members who've committed crimes. Kudos to you, Peter, for having the privilege of being able to make sensible choices through your life.

I would encourage everyone who thinks that staying out of trouble is a simple choice, to listen to this podcast:

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-rutger-bregman/8883962

It describes how people who are born into poverty or find themselves in hard times make bad choices through no fault of their own. IQ is negatively affected by the stress and anxiety of poverty and poor life choices often follow. This is why people in poverty often find themselves in a downward spiral and never get out of it. Some people on this site can relate - the types that never seem to get a break? Where bad luck seems to follow them around? Sound familiar?

Edited June 14 by The Customer

[Stikman 1,796]

1 hour ago, The Customer said:

Kudos to you, Peter, for having the privilege of being able to make sensible choices through your life.

What an offensive, disempowering thing to say.  Convincing people they don't have the control over their own actions is about as oppressive as you can get.

[Mike Del 469]

On 13/06/2020 at 9:58 PM, oldave said:

You found ONE example. Tyno's example is a Go Fund me page set up by Debbie Kilroy, a political activist who spent jail time for drug dealing. 

Did you know since serving time for drug dealing Debbie Kilroy OAM has completed 2 degrees, become a lawyer and started her own law firm, been Queensland’s nomination for Australian of the Year, awarded a Churchill Fellowship, awarded the Emergent Woman Lawyer of the Year in 2010, awarded the Peace Women Award, awarded the Australian Human Rights Medal, plus of course the Order of Australia Medal in 2003 by John Howard, and discribed by Qld Governor Paul De Jersey as one of the most impressive individuals he has ever worked with..... but yeh, probably best described as someone who’s spent time in jail for drug dealing.

 

[Stikman 1,796]

But it's okay to destroy someone because they dressed up in black face thirty years ago?  Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Mike Del 469]

2 minutes ago, Stikman said:

But it's okay to destroy someone because they dressed up in black face thirty years ago?  Hypocrisy at its finest.

Who’s being destroyed?

[IronmanFoz 1,635]

13 minutes ago, Mike Del said:

Did you know since serving time for drug dealing Debbie Kilroy OAM has completed 2 degrees, become a lawyer and started her own law firm, been Queensland’s nomination for Australian of the Year, awarded a Churchill Fellowship, awarded the Emergent Woman Lawyer of the Year in 2010, awarded the Peace Women Award, awarded the Australian Human Rights Medal, plus of course the Order of Australia Medal in 2003 by John Howard, and discribed by Qld Governor Paul De Jersey as one of the most impressive individuals he has ever worked with..... but yeh, probably best described as someone who’s spent time in jail for drug dealing.

Yet noone is prepared to give Lance a break.

[Diamonds 457]

25 minutes ago, Stikman said:

What an offensive, disempowering thing to say.  Convincing people they don't have the control over their own actions is about as oppressive as you can get.

That is bizarre.   The Customer is 100% right.  Children of junkies and alco's born in housing commission have almost zero chance of breaking out of their place in society.  Not saying they cannot, but to judge their options versus mine as a low middle class kid and some kid born into plenty is ridiculous.  I have been around it for over a quarter of a century in my job.   Lol "choice".  That is mostly their normal.  They often start the path before they even realise or could fathom where they are heading.

[Mike Del 469]

37 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

Yet noone is prepared to give Lance a break.

Lance who?

[The Customer 2,193]

3 hours ago, Stikman said:

What an offensive, disempowering thing to say.  Convincing people they don't have the control over their own actions is about as oppressive as you can get.

The best 50 minutes you'll ever spend

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-rutger-bregman/8883962

The podcast describes how a small city in Canada decided to do an experiment over 4 years. The City gave money to all residents to ensure each person could sustain a comfortable way of life. Nobody had to worry about money. There was no restrictions on what they could do with it - go back to school, cut their work hours back, take up a hobby, buy better food, buy better alcohol, buy better drugs, splash it on a new car - whatever they wanted. Over the 4 years crime plummeted, the overall health of the community improved, less people speeding, less traffic violations, healthier kids who learned better in school, reduced emergency ward admissions. In the long run, the City was no poorer for it as all Government services were coping much better and were less strained. The I.Q. of the entire City improved. Poverty causes bad choices.

 

Edited June 14 by The Customer

[Peter 4,047]

12 hours ago, The Customer said:

That's a very strange thing to say. About 6 members / former members names popped into my head that have done some of those things and they're just the ones I know about. There would be plenty of members who've committed crimes. Kudos to you

I was only guessing.  Despite spending a lot of time on here I don’t know many people’s real names let alone their personal life and crimes.  

[The Customer 2,193]

Oh come on Peter. I'm not buying the coy act 😂

[BarryBevan 1,493]

32 minutes ago, Peter said:

I was only guessing.  Despite spending a lot of time on here I don’t know many people’s real names let alone their personal life and crimes.  

have you ever drunk and driven and not been caught?

[roxii 7,063]

and how many people with mental health issues end up in jail now due to a lack of suitable facilities to treat them and their issues. 

[roxii 7,063]

I in no way want to play down violence against women, but I remember this specific case because I know the area well. 

Falsely accused, sent straight to maximum security, lost his job and wife, you could understand why some might self harm, same with anyone falsely accused of child sex offences. Not many people will side with you on these charges. 

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/woman-apologises-after-falsely-accusing-innocent-good-samaritan-of-sexual-assault/ar-AADruM3

[Katz 1,614]

I think the point Stikman is trying to make is that by telling people they can't help the crap that 'happens to them' prevents them from even having the option of making better choices. If they are led to believe they are unable to effect change in their own lives, why would they even bother trying?

[goughy 3,678]

Generational issues.

[IronJimbo 1,383]

2 hours ago, goughy said:

Generational issues.

Intergenerational issues

'We're sorry.  Here's a bag of cash

Maybe have a think about sending your kids to school?  In any case though, we'll be back again next year with another bag of cash'

 

[goughy 3,678]

I'm not making excuses, nor saying that it's solely their own fault, or solely the fault of those in power.  Just that it's generational issues, I guess not dissimilar to generational trauma.  But one thing I do believe is that we're generations away from it being solved.

[more 799]

I really didn't want to post on this site again and came back to check news on races opening up.. but here goes.. 

For most part I believe people have good hearts and good intentions. But really, people from the city who have never worked with or lived with Aboriginals have no place on commenting on these issues. Until you have lived it you just can't understand it. 

It's a very complex multi faceted issue. The first is giving people money makes them dependant, it takes away their drive and makes them reliant on hand outs. Why do you think many rich folk don't give their kids money-they make them earn it to build initiative and work ethic. 

The second part is many people can't appreciate just how different aboriginals in the remote communities are. They are NOT like city folk. They don't value material things like we do, they in many ways are still like they were a 100 years ago. Combine this with a never ending stream of government handouts and royalties and its a recipe for disaster. The stories of driving brand new 4wd and dumping them when they run out of fuel, or chartering a $1,000 flight to get a box of smokes are all true. Combine free money, boredom and alcohol... Disaster. 

The third part is if you really want to experience racism go to a remote aboriginal community. You will be lucky to survive in some, quite a few HATE white people. Combine this with alcohol and you will have a real eye opening to racism. Venture out at night.. 

The final part is for most part the aboriginals are fantastic people who have been let down by do gooders from the city, people with NFI trying to tell them how they should live their lives and what's best for them. So many people with so many opinions but the closest they have ever come to an Aboriginal was watching Stan Grant on the ABC... 

 

[Chuckie M 337]

19 hours ago, Peter said:

Wow I can’t believe so many are in jail.  28.6% is massive.  Would love to know does this include people in for a night (drunk tank).  Not that it would really matter. But jezz. Imagine if they just weren’t doing bad things and didn’t commit crimes. 
 

The rest of that story is excellent and certainly proves this is an issue when they are locked up.  
 

but I still stand by my comment. Just don’t do illegal stuff. 
 

im late 40s and never robbed someone. Stolen something. Beaten someone up. Sold or taken drugs.  Raped someone.  Killed someone .
 

Guessing the same as 99% of people on this site.  Probably why 99% haven’t been or currently in jail.  

I am in jail now Unit 2 as you speak..

[PeterW 162]

On 13/06/2020 at 9:16 PM, oldave said:

So very few then.

Here's another one - even in "socially progressive" Victoria!!  

coroner refers death in custody of Aboriginal woman for possible prosecution

I think her crime was falling asleep on a train....

[IronJimbo 1,383]

2 hours ago, goughy said:

I'm not making excuses, nor saying that it's solely their own fault, or solely the fault of those in power.  Just that it's generational issues, I guess not dissimilar to generational trauma.  But one thing I do believe is that we're generations away from it being solved.

Agree 100%

So why are we as a country doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?