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Criticising Danny is un-Australian And calling him white minimises his Italian heritage  You un-Australian racist 

Love car racing and motorbike racing. Always have, since I was a kid. My two brothers and I, were taken to our first car race at Warwick Farm when we were 9. I still remember the sound of Moffats Coca

How long ago was the tree climbing at Winton. I remember kids climbing trees at the old track at Winton. Some of the trees were removed when they reconfigured and extended the track. The historic race

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  • 2 weeks later...
5 hours ago, IronmanFoz said:

"Our' Daniel really isn't a very good driver is he!!! All in all a 9th seems to be pretty good for him these days.

 

Again when you understand the sport get back to us. 
 

a better comment would be, Vettel is the poor performer.  Top 6 car and can’t finish top 6 

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5 hours ago, IronmanFoz said:

"Our' Daniel really isn't a very good driver is he!!! All in all a 9th seems to be pretty good for him these days.

 

Trolling a thread on a forum where few people frequent? It’s all getting a bit sad for you, isn’t it. You should take better care of yourself.

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Imola is an astonishing track. Brilliant for qualifying, but very poor as a race track for the current type of F1 cars. The double corner at Rivazza and the curving main straight ending at the premature Tamburello chicane means that a following car is too far behind at the beginning, gets too little DRS assistance along the straight and there is not enough braking zone to make good any of the limited overtaking opportunities that present. There is a lack of a genuine secondary overtaking zone as well. Perhaps with the advent of ground effects cars will be able to come out of Rivazza close enough to change all that. But at the moment it’s as bad as Barcelona for F1 racing. Alas.


Imola presents  an interesting contract with Murgello and Portugal - in the former the positive cambered corners at both ends of the main straight, plus the total length of that straight made for good overtaking opportunities. With the later there was a enough distance on the main straight that even with the sweeping flat out curves leading onto it, there was also sufficient time for a DRS enabled car to made the pass - although - as Ricciardo proved - positions could also be defended as well. 

Last night Ricciardo drove well and capitalised on luck. Despite what Ironman Foz says, he’s been driving brilliantly all year. In a sport where even the very best made mistakes - and I can think of about half a dozen mistakes that both Hamilton and Vestappen have made this year, but I can only think of three mistakes that Ricciardo has made all year - one in FP3 in Sytria, a messy second qualifying run in Q3 in Russia and that tangle with Sainz in the 70th anniversary GP after Renault had already ****ed up his race with poor tyre strategy. 
 

It’s pretty clear that the top 4 drivers this year are Hamilton, Vestappen, Ricciardo and LeClerc. They are head and shoulders above the rest, although Gasley has really really impressed as well.

Bottas has had some bad luck, but his performance at Monza demonstrates that he’s only ever been a second or ‘B driver’ (a very fine one mind you) and not a team leader. Unlike Rosberg - who was right up Lewis’s arse over the 4 years they were team mates (just like he was as a team mate in karting a decade before), Bottas is a full step behind Hamilton over the course of a season. 
 

Norris and Russell might both develop into A drivers in a top team, but Sainz and Perez are just fine journeymen - like Bottas but with less luck so far in their careers (but more luck than the similarly talented Hulkenberg). Stroll is a joke - while he can be fast he has zero race craft no judgement. He shouldn’t be in F1. Albon seems to have lost all confidence and isn’t projecting the steel set of balls needed in the top flight of racing. 

Raikkonen shouldn’t be in F1 either - it’s embarrassing for him to be taking a F1 seat away from an up Nd coming driver for no other reason than to have weekly golden oldie fights with fellow hasbeen Vettel for 10th place. 

perhaps the most interesting thing last weekend is the fact that the Alpha Tauri was clearly the third fastest car on the grid over the race weekend. But for engine failure Gasley may well have beaten Ricciardo. So now we have four teams with a car that is capable of being third fastest, depending on the circumstances of the track (maybe even 5 cars if you count LeClerc’s heroics). Further, the mid field is still just in touch with red Bull (at least the second car). If it wasn’t for Mercedes, this year would probably be the best every year of F1 racing that I can recall: sure there have been years where 3 or more teams have had competitive cars, but 5? All within a tenth of each other? I can’t recall that ever.

 

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9 hours ago, Andrew #1 said:

It’s pretty clear that the top 4 drivers this year are Hamilton, Vestappen, Ricciardo and LeClerc. They are head and shoulders above the rest, although Gasley has really really impressed as well.

Bottas has had some bad luck, but his performance at Monza demonstrates that he’s only ever been a second or ‘B driver’ (a very fine one mind you) and not a team leader. Unlike Rosberg - who was right up Lewis’s arse over the 4 years they were team mates (just like he was as a team mate in karting a decade before), Bottas is a full step behind Hamilton over the course of a season. 

 

Good summation in the previous post but I would not suggest that Bottas has some serious explaining to do as to why a B grade driver is consistently streaks ahead of the rest of the field except Hamilton........it must be the car.....that drives itself. Must mean that the rest of the field are B grade drivers or worse.

Sure Mercedes are the pick of the cars, but they dont drive themselves. 

What would be good is for the drivers get drawn to drive a random car each race. Then we can start talking about who are the better drivers.
 

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1 hour ago, IronmanFoz said:

What would be good is for the drivers get drawn to drive a random car each race. Then we can start talking about who are the better drivers.

Similar to some of the Olympic sailing events where everyone gets issued with the same spec boat?

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Bottas is fast. Very fast. He’s very very good. No question. Yet when the acid test is applied he’s clearly a B driver. This is perfect for Hamilton and Mercedes - Bottas is a good test driver - giving great feed back to the engineers. He’s quick in par at ice and qualifying. He’s dependable in the race with getting the second Mercedes onto the podium. He can be relied upon to not crash into his team mate. Best of all there isn’t the ego and angst within the team that often happens whenever there is two genuine A drivers butting heads.

Think about:

Jones and Reutermann

Prost and Senna

Prost and Mansell 

Alonso and Hamilton

Vettel and Webber

Alonso and Button

Hamilton and Rosberg 

Vestappen and Ricciardo (and those last two pairings were with blokes who were mates off the track)

The only A driver pairings I can think of that have been harmonious have been Mansell and Piquet and also Lauda and Prost.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I know.  Can't believe racing point screwed it so bad.

Or should I say Stroll.  He lost it during the race.  On the 2 way radio back to the pitwall you could tell he lost it mentally.

And then Charles losing it on the 3rd last corner to go from 3rd to 4th.

I really liked the race.  Great action.

 

Once again Bottas proved he shouldnt be resigned.

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

I know.  Can't believe racing point screwed it so bad.

Or should I say Stroll.  He lost it during the race.  On the 2 way radio back to the pitwall you could tell he lost it mentally.

And then Charles losing it on the 3rd last corner to go from 3rd to 4th.

I really liked the race.  Great action.

 

Once again Bottas proved he shouldnt be resigned.

Stroll didn’t really lose that race. He simply could not get the intermediates to keep temperature in the specific conditions that prevailed in the second half. I’m not sure there was anything he could have done to fix that. Even Perez struggled but did enough to hang in there. Stroll was not alone in adapting to the variable conditions.
 

Hamilton did well on that score, but I think some luck and also that special cambering system that Mercedes has and no other team does played a big part. However, he struggled on the wets before the track dried out a bit. Vestappen and Albon both struggled at critical stages as did Ricciardo and Ocon. Bottas went AWOL again but remember - he’s a no.2 driver and generally good in that role. In fact I think he’s the best driver on the grid in that role. Ferrari managed to get temperature into their tyres at critical times and LeClerc actually went from being briefly second to 4th when he couldn’t make the overtake stick. Vettel drove very well to the conditions as did Perez. 

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Just watching the start again on a number of occasions. A special shoutout to Danny Ricciardo. Hamilton came into the first corner with too much speed for the conditions and lost grip. Ricciardo notice and corrected. He didn’t overcorrect, but tried to ‘thread the needle’ between Ocon who had already picked his line into the corner and an out of control Hamilton. He very nearly pulled it off, only to clip Ocon’s offside rear tyre by millimetres. He was super apologetic after the race but even Ocon - who is perhaps the most testy driver on the grid - didn’t blame him. While he might of failed to execute the impossible that is some of the finest driving you’ll ever see. I hope McLaren delivers a championship worthy car to him in 2022/23. He really deserves it.

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

I’d love to see Dan go to Mercedes and them flick Bottas.   Once again proved himself to not handle pressure. 

Bottas is safe as long as Hamilton stays. Both Lewis and Toto value what Valteri brings to the team without causing friction with the no.1 driver. Once Lewis retires Mercedes will drop Bottas like yesterday’s breakfast. They’ll try to break Red Bull’s contract with Vestappen; failing that will likely promote Vettel up from Aston Martin. George Russell is a lock on the second seat.

Dan will only go to Mercedes if Lewis retires, and Vestappen isn’t available and they take a view that Vettel is past it and Russell isn’t quite ready to be the no.1 driver. An unlikely set of circumstances. 

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Stroll had underwing damage that contributed to the rapid graining of his inters in the last stint.  


What was obvious to me was the difference between pace and experience on the weekend. Lots of fast people finished further back than they should have, but people like Lewis and Perez (a notable driver with exceptional tire deg history) made the right calls on what tires to be on. For example, Stroll was told to pit, and accepted it, then questioned why.  Lewis told them he was on the right tires and not to change unless it rained again.

Stroll, Max, Albon and Leclerc all looked fast enough at times to win the race, but lack of situational experience bought them all undone.

 

Put it this way - the podium had 711 grand prix worth of starts between them. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
14 hours ago, Peter said:

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Hopefully all is well ans he recovers quickly.  It will be nice to get through a race weekend without all the preaching though

In other news, Mick Schumacher's F2 seat at Prema will be filled by Australia's own newly crowned  F3 champion Oscar Piastri next year.  

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27 minutes ago, Peter said:

The stats say he is.  
 

schumacher is still my favourite 

Stats are an indicator, but are often skewed by machinery.  Lewis has enjoyed front-running cars for his entire career, whereas other comparable drivers have had to make do with rather less

Would Lewis have been champion in the 1986 McLaren against Mansell and Piquet? 

Would Lewis have won three races in the 1996 Ferrari?

I think not

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But the same is in tennis with Serena Williams. 
 

she will be the best female ever, but technology has helped her.  Physio, rackets, balls, travel, recovery etc...  

 

compared to the older champs. But all the older champs say Serena is the best. 

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55 minutes ago, Peter said:

But the same is in tennis with Serena Williams. 
 

she will be the best female ever, but technology has helped her.  Physio, rackets, balls, travel, recovery etc...  

 

compared to the older champs. But all the older champs say Serena is the best. 

Serena's contemporaries all have access to the same technology 

Mercedes only has two cars on the grid

 

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3 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Would Lewis have been champion in the 1986 McLaren against Mansell and Piquet? 

Would Lewis have won three races in the 1996 Ferrari?

 

Yes. And probably. More importantly, if he - at the height of his current powers - had a seat in the 1986 Williams, he wouldn’t have let the championship slip from his grasp like Mansell and Piquet did. Perhaps he might have as a rookie (alla 2007) but not now.

Schumacher liked to crash people out of contention. So did Prost and Senna to each other. All three were real ‘racers’ but only when things were going their way. Of the three Senna was a cut above the rest. Arguably the GOAT, but even he made some terrible mistakes - running right up the rear of Mansell at the season ending 1992 Australian GP stands out in my memory. Hamilton makes mistakes as well, but they are pretty rare and invariably very slight (ie. taking out Albon at both the Brazil 2019 GP and Styria GP this year was a result of getting it wrong by a matter of inches).

He’s also go a record of being a real racer all the time, no matter how competitive the car is. McLaren wasn’t the best car on the grid between 2009 and 12. Nor was his Mercedes the best in 2013, but Hamilton now has the record of winning at least one GP every year he has been in F1 & he’s been in The Show for 13 years now. His teammates have often been world champions and yet he has only finished behind a team mate on points twice in that period. So yes. There is a very good case to say he’s the GOAT. At the very least he’s better than the drivers you have referred to.

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1 hour ago, Andrew #1 said:

Yes. And probably. More importantly, if he - at the height of his current powers - had a seat in the 1986 Williams, he wouldn’t have let the championship slip from his grasp like Mansell and Piquet did. Perhaps he might have as a rookie (alla 2007) but not now.

Schumacher liked to crash people out of contention. So did Prost and Senna to each other. All three were real ‘racers’ but only when things were going their way. Of the three Senna was a cut above the rest. Arguably the GOAT, but even he made some terrible mistakes - running right up the rear of Mansell at the season ending 1992 Australian GP stands out in my memory. Hamilton makes mistakes as well, but they are pretty rare and invariably very slight (ie. taking out Albon at both the Brazil 2019 GP and Styria GP this year was a result of getting it wrong by a matter of inches).

He’s also go a record of being a real racer all the time, no matter how competitive the car is. McLaren wasn’t the best car on the grid between 2009 and 12. Nor was his Mercedes the best in 2013, but Hamilton now has the record of winning at least one GP every year he has been in F1 & he’s been in The Show for 13 years now. His teammates have often been world champions and yet he has only finished behind a team mate on points twice in that period. So yes. There is a very good case to say he’s the GOAT. At the very least he’s better than the drivers you have referred to.

Prost raced for thirteen seasons, was champion four times and was a close runner up in four more (including '88 when he outscored Senna)

Of the ten teammates he had in his career, all were podium finishers, eight had won races and five were World Champions.  He outscored all of them except in his debut year (thanks to missing a race) and 1984 (by half a point)

 His team mates in his title winning seasons were Lauda, Rosberg, Senna and Hill

I would submit to you that neither Nico Rosberg nor Valteri Bottas is at that level

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51 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

I would submit to you that neither Nico Rosberg nor Valteri Bottas is at that level

Oh, I hear you. Especially Bottas. Although Rosberg went alright. Probably better than his old man, who was my favourite driver after Jones retired for the first time and Villeneuve snr died. 
 

However, Collectively, Alonso, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas and Rosberg are some pretty good benchmarks to measure Hamilton against. Both Alonso and Button wee reigning world champions when they raced alongside Hamilton for the first time as teammates. When Hamilton won his first world title, Ferrari won the constructors championship and both Raikkonen and Massa really gave it to him. Ferrari was probably the better car that year. He also won a lot of races 2009-2013 in a car that, whilst competitive, was only really the 3rd or 4th best on the grid.  
 

clearly, he’s on the same level as the greats of the 80s and 90s. He’s ahead of Prost in my estimation (but I’ve always been biased against the little frog, I admit it), Mansell and Piquet. Senna was cut short, but I strongly suspect that he would have gotten that FW15 sorted and would have won 4 titles in a row if he had survived Imola. He might have even moved to Ferrari and have won in 1998-99 in a way that Schumacher couldn’t (but should have). 

The GOAT (of the modern era - ie. post 1970)? It’s between Senna and Hamilton in my view with Stewart, Lauda and  Prost vying for best of the rest. Schumacher can GGFed as a cheat and all round cunnus. Overrated as well. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

Lauda, Rosberg, Senna and Hill

Actually, regarding your benchmarks for Prost’s championship years above. I’d rate Lauda and Senna above any of Hamilton’s teammates, but Rosberg junior (who I never liked) was a better driver than his old man (even though he was my favourite driver at the peak of his powers). I’d rate Alonso and Button above both and I reckon even Bottas is better than Hill. Expanding the list of team mates out past their championship years Mansell was not a good as Alonso and it’s debatable who was better - Mansell or Button. 

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Bottas is clearly rattled. Russell was comfortably P1 in both practice sessions and Bottas was all over the place and way down the order. 
I’m starting to think Peter is right about him. I wonder whether Mercedes may dump him after this year, even though he has a contract for next ...

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9 minutes ago, Andrew #1 said:

Bottas is clearly rattled. Russell was comfortably P1 in both practice sessions and Bottas was all over the place and way down the order. 
I’m starting to think Peter is right about him. I wonder whether Mercedes may dump him after this year, even though he has a contract for next ...

Russell is clearly in a better car 😆

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5 hours ago, Andrew #1 said:

Bottas is clearly rattled. Russell was comfortably P1 in both practice sessions and Bottas was all over the place and way down the order. 
I’m starting to think Peter is right about him. I wonder whether Mercedes may dump him after this year, even though he has a contract for next ...

Bottas can still prove he is the second best after Hamilton but the pressure is huge.  
 

loving what George did this morning in both sessions. 
 

the traffic in the actual race will be insane. Under 60 second laps.  
 

George, max and Bottas will be lapping people after 10 laps. 

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