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Lionel Sanders Limp


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So, on Sander’s u-tube channel this morning he posted a video of his goals for Ironman Mount Tremblant - to be run overnight.

Its all about maintaining efficiency in both the bike and run legs for Lionel. Interestingly, he mentioned in passing that he wants to focus on maintaining running form during the marathon, but then said that he has a running limp, so he wasn’t talking about that, rather he wanted to focus on running upright.

So, he knows about the obvious limp, but seems resigned to it. That begs the question - does he have some physical deformity or disability resulting in said limp that can’t be corrected? Anyone know anything about that?

Edited by Andrew #1
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Guest FFF1077

Yeah I watched that. 

To be honest I was disappointed that he "seemed" to not want to correct it. So I am guessing that it's not something that he can "fix" 

But as it says in the comments, if you can run like that, you're probably doing OK. 

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4 hours ago, willie said:

his golf is the only thing uglier than his running!

I don't think it would benefit for him to change it which is why he probably hasn't. It's looks pretty natural to him and the 'limp' really isnt that pronounced. I couldn't run like that, not a chance in hell! It's ugly but effective, everything tracks ok (knee's through hips - straight). I think it's a relatively efficient running style apart from the fact he lands a bit ugly and slightly too far forward, but he has enough "lean" to make up for it... 

How often does he miss through injury?   Yet to hear anything in regards to him having an running injury, so maybe that is just him and it works for him

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Sure - when compared with age groupers - and most pros for that matter - “it works for him”, but in truth he’s going to have the likes of Frodo, Gomez and Lang up his date when he gets back on the QueenK after the trip to the energy lab (assuming he has another good race like last year). Given that little reality check, I’d say that if he can change his gait to obtain better efficiency, that should be his no.1. Priority. 

Edited by Andrew #1
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  • 3 weeks later...
56 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Watched it this morning, I thought he had a good carb load?

Sorry, was referring to the very start of the vid where he talks about how he didn't really know much about carbo loading until  relatively recently. Perhaps I misunderstood what he was referring to here though. 

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I cant help but feel he would be better off talking to an old pro like Macca - he seems to be trying to outthink this whole nutrition and hydration when in reality others have already made these mistakes and learnt the lessons the hard way. 

Im a big Sanders fan, but I was shaking my head when he started strapping on a bidon belt so he could make sure he was getting enough fluids....

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Yes there are enough retired pros who have already "invented the wheel" - if he's serious about winning the biggest race on the calendar you'd think he would be consulting with someone who has done it a couple of times 🙄

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1 hour ago, AP said:

Yes there are enough retired pros who have already "invented the wheel" - if he's serious about winning the biggest race on the calendar you'd think he would be consulting with someone who has done it a couple of times 🙄

Agree

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Im a big Sanders fan, but I was shaking my head when he started strapping on a bidon belt so he could make sure he was getting enough fluids....

Watching that video its clear that the purpose of that relates to the fact that he is using the seperate pro aid stations (which are located every 5km on the run course) to take on all his nutrition, sodium and hydration in one one go for the next 5km. Given he going with a 100% liquid hydration-nutrition strategy it actually makes sense.

So, he not strapping on a bidon belt for fluids alone - which would be daft - given the 1 mile ordinary aid stations on course but to receive his combo package (gatoraid endurance) in his personal biddons - a bit like marathoners at the olympics having their personal designated biddons - except he is planning on chugging down 500-600ml of his nutrition/sodium/hydration combo every 5km between special stations (i.e. every 19-20 minutes).  

That said, I think Lionel is just freaking out over what happened at Mount Tremblant. 

There is little wonder that he thought carbo loading is a bit of a myth because it is - basically most of the load effect is gained by eating normal amounts of normal food with reducing exercise in the final taper period - leading to more glycogen stores in both muscles and liver in the days leading up to the race. Lionel blew Mount Tremblant because he actually fasted in that period. I think he’s likely to overcompensate and could likely be massively bloated, perhaps even constipated on race day if he does some uber carbo load - including apparently a big breakfast (and hes not a breakfast guy).

One extreme to another seems to sum Lionel up ...

Edited by Andrew #1
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  • 2 weeks later...

He's got a few new youtube vids up now. Seems he's got nutrition dialled in correctly after Mount Tremblant (or at least, according to himself). He was pushing higher power numbers than that race in a 'test' run after doing some experimenting. 

Could it be enough to win at Kona now that Jan is out?

 

 

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well he came second last year and seems to have improved some areas where he struggled last year (swim and nutrition) so should be a chance. Additionally with Jan out his head will not be all screwed up trying to be like Jan.. he could be in the lead for a long way or he could explode... I would love him to win in some ways, but I also couldnt handle the aftermath on slowtwitch if he does...

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I actually saw a guy who was limping exactly the same way WITH a head band running along the coast last weekend.... I had to look twice 😳😳😳

 

Maybe the limp will become the Cadel head tilt of running?? LOL 

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On 11/09/2018 at 4:52 PM, Andrew #1 said:

Im a big Sanders fan, but I was shaking my head when he started strapping on a bidon belt so he could make sure he was getting enough fluids....

Watching that video its clear that the purpose of that relates to the fact that he is using the seperate pro aid stations (which are located every 5km on the run course) to take on all his nutrition, sodium and hydration in one one go for the next 5km. Given he going with a 100% liquid hydration-nutrition strategy it actually makes sense.

 So, he not strapping on a bidon belt for fluids alone - which would be daft - given the 1 mile ordinary aid stations on course but to receive his combo package (gatoraid endurance) in his personal biddons - a bit like marathoners at the olympics having their personal designated biddons - except he is planning on chugging down 500-600ml of his nutrition/sodium/hydration combo every 5km between special stations (i.e. every 19-20 minutes).  

That said, I think Lionel is just freaking out over what happened at Mount Tremblant. 

There is little wonder that he thought carbo loading is a bit of a myth because it is - basically most of the load effect is gained by eating normal amounts of normal food with reducing exercise in the final taper period - leading to more glycogen stores in both muscles and liver in the days leading up to the race. Lionel blew Mount Tremblant because he actually fasted in that period. I think he’s likely to overcompensate and could likely be massively bloated, perhaps even constipated on race day if he does some uber carbo load - including apparently a big breakfast (and hes not a breakfast guy).

One extreme to another seems to sum Lionel up ...

After watching him use it in the simulation video, it makes a lot more sense to me now. Right or wrong, that training day he did at least reassures him that he is on the right track. 

My coach now has me taking on a lot more fluid than I thought possible, around 750ml/hour for running distance, and it seems to be working well for me, so I guess I need to reassess my earlier comments!

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1 hour ago, KieranR said:

I'm nowhere near that, not even close.

Nor was I. But by trying to get close to that I have been able to hold pace for longer, and have a PB in 10k, 21.1 and 42 in the last 3 months. I just did Sydney marathon with a a hydration belt with 2 small bottles, I had one full of gels, and the other I drank between 5k aid stations and refilled every 5k or so.  It was actually very easy to do when you have the bottle on your belt.

Like I said, I might need to rethink my opinions on Lionel's hydration belt!

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5 hours ago, The new guy said:

My coach now has me taking on a lot more fluid than I thought possible, around 750ml/hour for running distance

When I used a sports dietitian for 70.3 last year, she recommended a 750ml bottle per hour + solid food (on bike). I guess it would work for running as well..

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  • 1 year later...

Not all that uncommon, unfortunately. 

Been behind the scenes at a few finish lines where pros have been ushered away, then come back in new kit, or some borrowed clothes or a strategically placed towel. . 

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42 minutes ago, roxii said:

Not all that uncommon, unfortunately. 

Been behind the scenes at a few finish lines where pros have been ushered away, then come back in new kit, or some borrowed clothes or a strategically placed towel. . 

Yeah and for that I just don’t know why they wear white lower half of kit..

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  • 2 months later...

Anyone been keeping an eye on Lionel's recent youtube content?

 

It's a bit puzzling to me why he would film it, but some of it is pretty interesting - particularly regarding the diet/sweat/lactate testing. 

Edited by dazmuzza
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8 hours ago, dazmuzza said:

Anyone been keeping an eye on Lionel's recent youtube content?

 

It's a bit puzzling to me why he would film it, but some of it is pretty interesting - particularly regarding the diet/sweat/lactate testing. 

Yeah I watch his youtube vids, defo v interesting. I kind of think Sanders chance of winning Kona has gone. The field has changed as has the race dynamics. He can't afford to finish 6 minutes behind the top guys in the swim when they are now as strong or stronger than him on the bike. 

 

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Yeah I watch his youtube vids, defo v interesting. I kind of think Sanders chance of winning Kona has gone. The field has changed as has the race dynamics. He can't afford to finish 6 minutes behind the top guys in the swim when they are now as strong or stronger than him on the bike. 

 

We are still to see a windy day with the current crop of professionals.  
 

that’s where I think Seb and sanders and wurf and a few other Germans would be interesting to see perform. 
 

Not saying they would be better or worse but Crowie 3 time winner never won on a brutal bike day.  

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11 hours ago, dazmuzza said:

Anyone been keeping an eye on Lionel's recent youtube content?

 

It's a bit puzzling to me why he would film it, but some of it is pretty interesting - particularly regarding the diet/sweat/lactate testing. 

His bike position is looking good.

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Guest Jim Shortz

I agree with Zed. He won't win. 

 

At the moment he's living the life of a professional amateur. He says in the video that the conditions at home aren't "Kona race like" therefore making testing that stuff at home pointless.... Then goes on to say that the conditions that he's testing in aren't "Kona race like"..... Like.... Wtf?? LOL 

 

Walking contradiction. 

He's interesting. But no Kona winner 

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16 hours ago, dazmuzza said:

Anyone been keeping an eye on Lionel's recent youtube content?

It's a bit puzzling to me why he would film it, but some of it is pretty interesting - particularly regarding the diet/sweat/lactate testing. 

It reminds me of when Macca had a few failures at kona and got the full sports science workup ("drink this much water, have this much salt" etc etc). It didn't work so well for him the next year or two. 
It's obviously tricky to work out for some, hard to prepare for those conditions (non-wetsuit swim, hot/humid, completely different race dynamics etc)

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3 minutes ago, Aidan said:

It reminds me of when Macca had a few failures at kona and got the full sports science workup ("drink this much water, have this much salt" etc etc). It didn't work so well for him the next year or two. 
It's obviously tricky to work out for some, hard to prepare for those conditions (non-wetsuit swim, hot/humid, completely different race dynamics etc)

Lionel's been told all this stuff before but it seems he's not the best thinker when he's racing and it all goes out the window.. 5 bottles of fluid last year..? Ridiculous..

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3 hours ago, Aidan said:

It reminds me of when Macca had a few failures at kona and got the full sports science workup ("drink this much water, have this much salt" etc etc). It didn't work so well for him the next year or two. 
It's obviously tricky to work out for some, hard to prepare for those conditions (non-wetsuit swim, hot/humid, completely different race dynamics etc)

I recall it worked pretty well the first year he did that work up (fun fact - it was with gator aid as well), as he went from 4 massive failures in Kona to finishing 6th with the fastest run. He was second next year and the following year - having taken Mark Allen’s advice to only do two Ironman races a year - he won. Putting together his nutrition and hydration strategy was the biggest step forward.
 

From memory, Macca got his perspiration rate down well below 2kg per hour (from memory at around 1.6kg) and his absorption rate over 1kg (maybe 1.2kg), so that when he hot off the bike he’d only lost a couple of kg. When first tested he was only taking in about 800g of fluids per hour and sweating at well over 2kg per hour. Which explained exactly why he failed at the 6hr mark in the race for 3 years in a row. 

Edited by Andrew #1
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3 hours ago, pieman said:

Lionel's been told all this stuff before but it seems he's not the best thinker when he's racing and it all goes out the window.. 5 bottles of fluid last year..? Ridiculous..

That’s on the bike. The bidons he uses are those big 900ml ones. So he had 4.5kg of fluid-gatoraid mix in the first 5hours of racing. He didn’t count the first hour in the water - warming up, the swim and transition. In Kona he would have sweated as much during that hour as an hour on the bike during the race. Check out his ‘Dissecting Kona: the swim’ video relating to the testing he did at the same week as the cycle video above -  that bears out the dehydration in the water issue perfectly. He actually needs to adapt to take on board around 1.5kg of fluid per hour for the first 5 hours until he gets off the bike. That’s 7.5kg - another 3kg more than he did last year. That would mean that he’d only be 2-3kg lighter getting off the bike than when started the race. He might the have a chance of running a sub 2:48hr marathon before his body is compromised by dehydration. 

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

We are still to see a windy day with the current crop of professionals.  
 

that’s where I think Seb and sanders and wurf and a few other Germans would be interesting to see perform. 
 

Not saying they would be better or worse but Crowie 3 time winner never won on a brutal bike day.  

Yeah I guess it really depends who is there on the day. He can win Kona, but I just don't think it will happen whilst he's racing against guys who are strong across all 3 disciplines. It would be awesome to see him win though.

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At least he’s out there trying to work on his weakness. 

20 hours ago, Jim Shortz said:

.. Then goes on to say that the conditions that he's testing in aren't "Kona race like"..... Like.... Wtf?? LOL 

 

Walking contradiction. 

He's interesting. But no Kona winner 

Not “Kona race like” but a hell of a lot closer to simulating race conditions than sitting back on the mainland on Zwift in his basement.

I say good on him. Some fools thinking getting up at 3am or simple “just wanting it bad enough” will get you a podium spot in Kona.

This guys out there trying new things and sharing his experience with everyone.

I say good him. 

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11 hours ago, Andrew #1 said:

From memory, Macca got his perspiration rate down well below 2kg per hour (from memory at around 1.6kg) and his absorption rate over 1kg (maybe 1.2kg), so that when he hot off the bike he’d only lost a couple of kg. When first tested he was only taking in about 800g of fluids per hour and sweating at well over 2kg per hour. Which explained exactly why he failed at the 6hr mark in the race for 3 years in a row. 

How does one go about reducing there perspiration rate?  I am a massive sweater and would love to know how to reduce it!

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A load of great ironman winners have never won kona in the history of the sport.

He lacks the natural ability to win that others have over that distance.

I'd love him to win. If Wurf doesn't.

But Lessing, who was probably in the top 5 males of all time, couldn't even get a look in at Kona.

Sanders isn't as good as Lessing was.

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3 hours ago, Toolish said:

How does one go about reducing there perspiration rate?  I am a massive sweater and would love to know how to reduce it!

remove all hair from your body?

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Guest Jim Shortz
7 hours ago, Bored@work said:

At least he’s out there trying to work on his weakness. 

Not “Kona race like” but a hell of a lot closer to simulating race conditions than sitting back on the mainland on Zwift in his basement.

I say good on him. Some fools thinking getting up at 3am or simple “just wanting it bad enough” will get you a podium spot in Kona.

This guys out there trying new things and sharing his experience with everyone.

I say good him. 

I'd say that his actual weakness is analysis paralysis. 

He's a good entertainer for sure. 

 

I agree with the Western Melbourne person, lots of great triathletes haven't won Hawaii. 

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15 hours ago, Toolish said:

How does one go about reducing there perspiration rate?  I am a massive sweater and would love to know how to reduce it!

Good question. I’m not sure Macca ever provided the exact answer to that, but I’d suggest it would be a combination of electrolyte consumption, wearing cooling clothing, ice, water sponges, and proper pre race acclimatisation and hydration. 

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14 hours ago, Peter said:

But Lessing, who was probably in the top 5 males of all time, couldn't even get a look in at Kona.

Lessing came to Ironman racing at the wrong point in his career, IMO. Ditto Bevan Doherty. I wonder how they would have gone if they’d made the switch a few years earlier in their careers and still has the fire in the belly, like Frodo obvious does and maybe even Brownlee. It makes Gomez’s commitment look remarkable. 

Carter, Whitfield, Miles and Brad Bevan didn’t even try. Burnt out and not interested, even as a bucket race to simply finish. 

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Carter Beven and miles weren’t the long course type.  I don’t think any of them even did a half ironman. 
 

but am surprised Simon Whitfield did try. And snowsill too. 

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Bevan won (or came second, cant recall now) his very first long course race - the Australian Long Course championships in 1989 at the Sri Chinmoy Triathlon. His body was basically wrecked by the time he had his bike-car collison just before the 2000 Olympic qualifiers, so it wasn’t really a viable option for him to go to Ironman when he finished. He did however race a lot of swim wannabes for cash bets out to the swim tournament boat in the week leading up to race race in Kona: often swimming butterfly just to keep it interesting. ...

He raced a number of long course events over the years. Nothing longer than HIM though. Miles also raced a number of long course races including the 1989 Wolrd Cup Triathlon on the Gold Coast (3/130/30).

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6 hours ago, Peter said:

Carter Beven and miles weren’t the long course type.  I don’t think any of them even did a half ironman. 
 

but am surprised Simon Whitfield did try. And snowsill too. 

Pretty sure Miles won Frankston long course by about..... daylight.... as a 15 year old.

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Yeah I should have said a Half Ironman where other people with abilities turned up. 
 

not tiny races with 300 people. 
 

bit like when Crowie first crossed over.  Smash forster half ironman. 
 

the other so called pros had nothing compared to him.  And I’m talking early 2000. Yes 20 years ago.  And the guys still winning. 

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10 minutes ago, Peter said:

Yeah I should have said a Half Ironman where other people with abilities turned up. 
 

not tiny races with 300 people. 
 

bit like when Crowie first crossed over.  Smash forster half ironman. 
 

the other so called pros had nothing compared to him.  And I’m talking early 2000. Yes 20 years ago.  And the guys still winning. 

Crowie was winning the Cairns HIM for years and years before he crossed over (early mid 1990s). Back in the day that was a small race, but a perfect end to a pre northern hemisphere build phase. When he did actually ‘cross over’ I’m pretty sure he targeted genuinely big HIM distance races from day dot and won a bunch of them.

The long course races that Miles and Bevan tended to do in ‘the period 1987 to 1993 were actually either part of the original Australian Triathlon Series, or Australian championship races or big prize money races like the Gold Coast World Cup. I don’t think either of them raced long course after it was announced that SYDNEY had won the rights to host the 2000 Olympics and that triathlon would debut as a medal sport at those games. Both were pretty focused on making the Olympic team from that point and did lots of ITU racing (and also some big money short course races in America as well). Further, once the ITU announced the switch to draft legal racing after 1996, both specialised in that form of racing virtually exclusively (except for the off end of season appearance at the Noosa Tri) until the ends of their careers. 

Edited by Andrew #1
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while the KFC dude has made plenty of mistakes, I reckon he still seems to have the capacity to learn from them. He appears to have no issue with admitting his mistakes and that is huge in my opinion.

he has satisfied the come 2nd to win protocol.

if Frodo turns up I’m reluctant to bet against him, and while I really want cam to win, I’d be happy to see the colonel collect the tape.

just hope there are white caps on the left on the way up to hawi, that will sort the bastards out. (back door brag, they sorted me and knobbly out)

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On 18/02/2020 at 7:36 AM, Peter said:

Carter Beven and miles weren’t the long course type.  I don’t think any of them even did a half ironman. 
 

but am surprised Simon Whitfield did try. And snowsill too. 

Miles did the Canberra long course, and Chris Legh beat him by about 10 minutes. Put about 8 minutes into him on the bike; Col thought Miles had punctured.

Edited by Nick777
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