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Currently sitting in my hotel room in the Pyrenees before volunteer duties start while Mrs L races along the Spanish and Andorran Pyrenees for 7 days in the Pyrenees Stage Race. Love the mountains of

Just saw Tyno's post from a while back.  Trying to waste a bit of time while I wait  to get out the front door for Easter.. My wife Liz got an invite and is enterred. Currently doing a 100k

Paperman, my advice for a first-timer: Walk anything which even looks like a hill. Conserve energy that can be better utilised later in the race. Walk strongly with purpose. Don't trash your legs on

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On 22/11/2019 at 7:53 PM, Bosco said:

No idea, I love getting lost......

You need to take up rogaining then. Nothing like doing a 24 hr event, realising at 2a.m. having bushbashed for 3 hours looking for a tiny orange and white flag in thick bush, the pitch black, in the freezing cold, with just a head torch, detailed topo map and a compass, that you have no f****** idea where the hell you are on the map ..... if you havent actually gone off the map.  There aren't many ways to have as much fun. 🤣

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Been looking at some trail runs for next year, first one being looked at is for a fairly iconic run near me through a national park.  Now I can run this at any time, however it appears on race day they provide one aid station across a 44km event (or 60km or 2 aid stations for the 100kms), all self-supported and no medal at the end, you get a chocolate bar as you cross the line.  The trail and maps are available publicly at anytime.

I'm thinking for the above event, the early bird entry of $80 (plus booking fee and GST) seems a bit excessive for a trail run.  Is this the common or have I just been spoilt to date doing Rohan Day's events which seem to be good value?

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On 29/11/2019 at 12:53 PM, Cottoneyes said:

Been looking at some trail runs for next year, first one being looked at is for a fairly iconic run near me through a national park...

I'm thinking for the above event, the early bird entry of $80 (plus booking fee and GST) seems a bit excessive for a trail run.  Is this the common or have I just been spoilt to date doing Rohan Day's events which seem to be good value?

Like all races some are better value than others.  I'm a big fan of just going out and doing the runs (in National Parks etc) just because you can and purely for the fun of it.  Unfortunately, unless there was an event on, I'd often tend not to do it because there was no set timeframe to do it and because we're always so damn busy doing other 'stuff' that a 'run just for the fun of it' doesn't seem all that important... especially when your family just thinks your a nutter for wanting to run through the countryside for hours on end anyway.  It's much more enticing (for them) when you get to win a plastic trophy, a finishers medal or even a chocolate bar at the end of it all.

The other side of it is that because I've been prone to injuries, and am now also getting a little bit older, then it's reassuring for my family to know that there are people out there who supposedly know the area and have some idea of how to get me out of there should the need arise.  I also love 'racing' and really testing myself at times, and it's nice to know that I don't have to stick with my mates to ensure that everyone is safe.

So for me the event is just an excuse to go and do a course that I would never normally do otherwise, and do it in a safer manner than what I would on my own or with a few mates who also don't have much of an idea of the area.  My suggestion would be to consider the course and how much you want to do it, and weigh that up with the costs involved to get there (travel, accommodation, entry fees etc).  In my case the entry fees are usually only a small portion of the overall costs anyway.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Awesome lawman.........that has made the bucket list! 

Can someone tell FP to come back? I hate stalking him on that UK TriChat forum- its awful to navigate! 

I do not have much to add to this thread at moment - too many fires smoke etc. 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Any suggestions here ?  I can burn near 3500 calories on a 4hr trail run. I'm using tailwind and electrolyte water. Feeling flat after about 2hr. Could it just be a conditioning thing re hills or nutritional.  Can go through 3 to 3.5 litres.

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Had a morning on the turbo then a sofa/tv session watching clips of the race I'm most interested in locally.  This is how we roll, UK style.

100 miles through Cornwall in winter!  There is a 50 mile version which starts the the next day.  The sensible person would do that first, hmmm.

 

 

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22 hours ago, FatPom said:

Had a morning on the turbo then a sofa/tv session watching clips of the race I'm most interested in locally.  This is how we roll, UK style.

100 miles through Cornwall in winter!  There is a 50 mile version which starts the the next day.  The sensible person would do that first, hmmm.

Looks just like the costal classic. Only 5 times longer on boggy tracks and in shit weather.

Once you get those ski sticks working you should have no problems :)

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  • 1 month later...

Found another clip of the Arc 50.  I never, in my wildest dreams thought two of my favourite things would be in the clip. Ultra running and TOOL. 😎

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just entered Arc of Attrition 50 for Feb next year.

I'm not sure anything good can come of a race with 'Attrition' in its name! 😅

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This could equally go in the ‘Things I love’ thread but I find the trail/ultra community so chilled out and very friendly (I find the tri community friendly also but there is something about the ultra folks that I ‘click’ with).

Anyway, I’m doing my repeats on St Catherine Hill today and crossed another guy doing similar a couple of times. He has pole, the shooting match and looked very fit. We got chatting and it turns out he should have been doing his 6th UTMB this weekend.

He said he goes to Europe a lot and knows the UTMB folks through his music. He’s in a band and when I asked if they were successful he modestly said ‘we do ok’.

His name is Dave Penny and he is in a band called Archive, which I’d never heard of but told me ‘if you like TOOL, you’ll like us’. I can hear that in some song and Portishead in others.

He's the singer here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF52fcoIqg4

 

 

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18 hours ago, FatPom said:

This could equally go in the ‘Things I love’ thread but I find the trail/ultra community so chilled out and very friendly (I find the tri community friendly also but there is something about the ultra folks that I ‘click’ with).

Yes the 'Trail/Ultra' community definitely has a higher percentage of chilled out friendly people (and less dickheads).

Last year I was in a group of 4 runners who accidently went off course and skipped a section of the run.  We were the first 4 runners to cross the finish line.  Two of the runners were certain we had done the whole course.  It wasn't until I pointed out that the race had a river crossing and our feet were still dry that they realised.  They both immediately laughed.  Not sure you would get that reaction from a triathlete who went from overall winner to DQ.

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20 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Thats cool FP!

Im doing some searches for drills that you can do re lifting your feet so you dont fall over quite so much ..... 😉😉😉😉

 

Thanks. I think it's a gravity thing. there is too much mss above the feet and that's stopping them staying in the air for long. 😀

I've just  picked up a pair of Saucony Peregrine 10s, so I'll be interested to see if I still stumble in them.

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59 minutes ago, FatPom said:

Thanks. I think it's a gravity thing. there is too much mss above the feet and that's stopping them staying in the air for long. 😀

I've just  picked up a pair of Saucony Peregrine 10s, so I'll be interested to see if I still stumble in them.

Overwhelmingly... the tips are 

Watch where you are going ie scan & look ahead

Pick your feet up!

Isnt that what you say to your little training buddy 😁

Im interested to hear what you think of the Saucony 

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I'm always in awe of the people who run down the hills like rabbits. Like all things find the fitter you get and the more you do it the more those good things happen.

A good trail shoe though helps. I have the hoka and it grips reliably, provides a solid plaform which makes going down the steep hills better.

Little steps help, though I still go through the risk thing is it worth hammering down here

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2 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

I'm always in awe of the people who run down the hills like rabbits. Like all things find the fitter you get and the more you do it the more those good things happen.

A good trail shoe though helps. I have the hoka and it grips reliably, provides a solid plaform which makes going down the steep hills better.

Little steps help, though I still go through the risk thing is it worth hammering down here

Which Hoka's do you have? The Torrent looks good, but I don't think I'd get enough ground feel in the Speedgoats.

Fitness definitely helps you to lift your feet when fatigue starts setting in. But I got better at downhills by practicing my descending.  When I do hill repeats on the trails, I also do descent repeats.

My preference is trail running shoes with a really good ground feel (currently race in Inov8 Terraclaw 225).  Softer surface of the trails usually doesn't require as much cushioning.  But my trail running races are all under 2 hours longs.  Before COVID, I was considering doing Surf Coast (half) Century (5.5 to 6 hours long) and I would definitely need more cushion (therefore less ground feel) for something that long.

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1 hour ago, Rob said:

Which Hoka's do you have? The Torrent looks good, but I don't think I'd get enough ground feel in the Speedgoats.

Fitness definitely helps you to lift your feet when fatigue starts setting in. But I got better at downhills by practicing my descending.  When I do hill repeats on the trails, I also do descent repeats.

My preference is trail running shoes with a really good ground feel (currently race in Inov8 Terraclaw 225).  Softer surface of the trails usually doesn't require as much cushioning.  But my trail running races are all under 2 hours longs.  Before COVID, I was considering doing Surf Coast (half) Century (5.5 to 6 hours long) and I would definitely need more cushion (therefore less ground feel) for something that long.

On my 5th or 6th pair of Speegoats, from the SG2 through to SG4.  As per my posts in the training thread, I do repeats on hills (I'm not tying it all out again). I walk up and run down, usually covering 850mr vert in 12km or so.

Our trails are very different here,  yours (in general) are like a freeway compared to over here.  There is a lot of 'hands and knee' stuff and whilst they are dry in summer, mostly wet, muddy and absolutely strewn with tree roots, rabbit holes, flint and chalk (the latter is like ice when wet, which is most of the SDW)

I find the the SG a good transfer shoe as well, as transfers are a regular feature of my trail running and the SG helps here with my back.

I've had Walsh trail shoes before and you feel everything with those, so I'm looking for a half way house.  A few mates have Inov8 and whilst they are great when new, they don't hold up well to UK conditions and most of my mates don't find them that durable.

Right now I'm looking for a shoe that is comfortable and has good grip for soft sand/mud and particularly rock, as that's what I'll need for the Arc of Attrition in Feb.

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3 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

I'm always in awe of the people who run down the hills like rabbits. Like all things find the fitter you get and the more you do it the more those good things happen.

A good trail shoe though helps. I have the hoka and it grips reliably, provides a solid plaform which makes going down the steep hills better.

Little steps help, though I still go through the risk thing is it worth hammering down here

I remember the first HIM I did in the UK called 'A Day in the Lakes' which was based around Ullswater and the run went through two big streams, up and across Fusedale and down the other side. I was amazed how quick the local fell runners could get down there.

My regular hill descent features chalk rocks that are like marbles, rabbit holes everywhere and large tussocks.  You can't really run it with your feet pointing forward as it's too steep, so you have to do the sideways thing.  The repeat on the other side is more straightforward. It keeps you alert though for sure.

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3 hours ago, Rob said:

Which Hoka's do you have? The Torrent looks good, but I don't think I'd get enough ground feel in the Speedgoats.

Fitness definitely helps you to lift your feet when fatigue starts setting in. But I got better at downhills by practicing my descending.  When I do hill repeats on the trails, I also do descent repeats.

My preference is trail running shoes with a really good ground feel (currently race in Inov8 Terraclaw 225).  Softer surface of the trails usually doesn't require as much cushioning.  But my trail running races are all under 2 hours longs.  Before COVID, I was considering doing Surf Coast (half) Century (5.5 to 6 hours long) and I would definitely need more cushion (therefore less ground feel) for something that long.

speed goat 4. I like the big platform it gives and used to need love feel for the surface. My road racing show is a vapor fly and for a different reason you don't get a lot of road feel either.

Definitely find that proper hill fitness leads to good technique, but descents I need certainty of a big platform but even then I am cautious.

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1 hour ago, FatPom said:

I remember the first HIM I did in the UK called 'A Day in the Lakes' which was based around Ullswater and the run went through two big streams, up and across Fusedale and down the other side. I was amazed how quick the local fell runners could get down there.

My regular hill descent features chalk rocks that are like marbles, rabbit holes everywhere and large tussocks.  You can't really run it with your feet pointing forward as it's too steep, so you have to do the sideways thing.  The repeat on the other side is more straightforward. It keeps you alert though for sure.

Yep last time back in UK I did a week running in the Cairngorms, now that is a trail, You are right stuff in Oz is more like nice graded fire trail. The Scottish running is just as you described and when my run guide asked do you scramble, I foolishly said yes and we ran up what looked like a rock face. Well he just elevated of his toes and I crawled over the rocks on my hands and knees

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3 hours ago, FatPom said:

Our trails are very different here,  yours (in general) are like a freeway compared to over here.  There is a lot of 'hands and knee' stuff and whilst they are dry in summer, mostly wet, muddy and absolutely strewn with tree roots, rabbit holes, flint and chalk (the latter is like ice when wet, which is most of the SDW)

Like everything, depends where you go.  In the series I typically race we have a couple of locations (Silvan & Plenty Gorge) where there are some seriously steep (hands and knees) hills.  The kind you couldn't get up without trail shoes.

Obviously we don't get snow, but the races are held over winter and it can definitely get very wet and muddy (and Silvan is in a RainForest).  And Plenty Gorge has 3 creek crossings.  Used to have 4, but the Mountain Bikers built a bridge over one section.

There are also locations with the wider, less technical trails like you mention. But I don't do as well at those races - favours runners who have actual speed.

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I think the main difference I find here is how much of the trail is muddy for a larger % of the year, plus we get some really rutty single track that is only wide enough for one foot and to gnarly at the edge to run.  I never know how to deal with properly and end up slowing right down, for fear of twisting my ankle.

It just stays wet for long here and the low light in winter doesn't help for picking out features. I'm not sure there is a shoe out there that could deftly deal with all a UK trail year has to offer but I have somewhat been stuck in a rut with the SGs, so definitely keen to see how something else feels.

 

Scroll up a bit and have a look at the Arc of Attrition clips. You have to love mud (and the dark!) 😀

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11 hours ago, FatPom said:

.... It just stays wet for long here and the low light in winter doesn't help for picking out features ....

I don't like running in the dark, or poor light.  The only time I run at night is at an athletics track under lights.

I have a running headlamp, but still don't like it.  Find my whole running form changes as I become too tentative.

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6 hours ago, Rob said:

I don't like running in the dark, or poor light.  The only time I run at night is at an athletics track under lights.

I have a running headlamp, but still don't like it.  Find my whole running form changes as I become too tentative.

It's a fact of life here in the winter months, even for road running but running (and riding) off road in the dark is different. Like you, I tend to tense up and need to learn to be more relaxed at a slower pace.

The other issue with lights and running is that dogs seem to bloody hate them and go mental. That makes me more nervous than anything else I think.

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I remember doing a run on my local trails just before sunrise.  There was a little bit of light which I thought would be enough.

Problem was, I was the first one to run (or walk) on the trail that day. It was Summer, and all the spiders had spun their webs across the path, usually at head height.  The webs were completely invisible in the low light.  Needless to say that was one of my least enjoyable runs.

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Yeah we don't get that here quite so much (although my car wing mirrors seem to attract them!). Being first on the trail here can mean slippery dew in summer and nobody has broken the the ice/frost in winter.

There is something magical about running from dark to light though.  I can only imagine what it must be like to do an ultra all night and begging for that dawn, it must feel like heaven for your spirits!

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Signed up for my first trail run in November!!! 

It's a baby one - 21 odd kilometers, but considering my background is sprint distance triathlons quite a big step for me.  Very excited about it.  Have just completed 4th week of training and am up to a 2 hour long run, which is about 15km and 500m elevation. I am not the speediest runner that's for sure!  I've been pouring over this thread and doing lots of reading, which is half the fun sometimes.  What started this new enthusiasm was getting  a decent pair of trail shoes which made the most amazing difference to enjoyment of trail running.  Used to run maybe once or twice a week around the trails of Mt Coot-tha, maybe 6 or 7 km max, but I used to trip so much and my feet would get so hot after about 45 minutes that I never felt inclined to go further.  Now hot feet are a distant memory and I've only tripped once when I was looking at my watch and missed that branch sticking out in my path 😀

I havent even done my first race and am already contemplating doing a 50km sometime next year.  There is no hope for me!

 

Edited by Cat Lady
500m not 800m elevation ! Need new glasses 🤓
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30 minutes ago, Cat Lady said:

Signed up for my first trail run in November!!! 

It's a baby one - 21 odd kilometers...

Haha, already considering 21km on trails as a 'baby' race, love it.

Don't go silly fast at the beginning and you'll have a great day.

Note that not all trail races have aid stations, and the ones that do typically have far less than a triathlon or road race.

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2 hours ago, Cat Lady said:

Signed up for my first trail run in November!!! 

It's a baby one - 21 odd kilometers, but considering my background is sprint distance triathlons quite a big step for me.  Very excited about it.  Have just completed 4th week of training and am up to a 2 hour long run, which is about 15km and 800m elevation. I am not the speediest runner that's for sure!  I've been pouring over this thread and doing lots of reading, which is half the fun sometimes.  What started this new enthusiasm was getting  a decent pair of trail shoes which made the most amazing difference to enjoyment of trail running.  Used to run maybe once or twice a week around the trails of Mt Coot-tha, maybe 6 or 7 km max, but I used to trip so much and my feet would get so hot after about 45 minutes that I never felt inclined to go further.  Now hot feet are a distant memory and I've only tripped once when I was looking at my watch and missed that branch sticking out in my path 😀

I havent even done my first race and am already contemplating doing a 50km sometime next year.  There is no hope for me!

 

Go Cat Lady! I love running on trails. 

How did your old shoes trip you up? I am a pretty regular tripper, if that is what you call it. A couple of weeks ago I managed 2 trips within one 5km run along great north walk. I attributed it to being tired from a long run the day before. FP (somewhere in this thread probably) was trying to blame his tripping on shoes with a big stack height but I am not sure.

My current shoes are NB 1080s, big stack height and road grip only, definitely not made for trails but I have never had a problem with grip. That is probably because I never push the limits and haven't done a wet trail in 2+ years.

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14 minutes ago, flathead said:

Go Cat Lady! I love running on trails. 

How did your old shoes trip you up? I am a pretty regular tripper, if that is what you call it. A couple of weeks ago I managed 2 trips within one 5km run along great north walk. I attributed it to being tired from a long run the day before. FP (somewhere in this thread probably) was trying to blame his tripping on shoes with a big stack height but I am not sure.

My current shoes are NB 1080s, big stack height and road grip only, definitely not made for trails but I have never had a problem with grip. That is probably because I never push the limits and haven't done a wet trail in 2+ years.

I don't exactly understand the technical side of things.  My old shoes were saloman XA Pro which were described as trail running shoes.  My new ones are Saloman Wildcross.  I read the review on them and the lady at the trail running shop said they were great - I'm an easy sell 😀 They are slightly lighter and the sole doesn't appear to flare as much from the shoe as my old ones.  If that makes any sense.  As to when I trip, it can be anywhere from starting out to middle and end so fatigue wasn't the issue.  Some of the fire trails I run on have a few steep descents on slippery gravel yet the grip on the wildcross is heaps better and I find I can descend with much more confidence.

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2 hours ago, Rob said:

Haha, already considering 21km on trails as a 'baby' race, love it.

Don't go silly fast at the beginning and you'll have a great day.

Note that not all trail races have aid stations, and the ones that do typically have far less than a triathlon or road race.

Thanks Rob, one of the things I'm enjoying about trail running is being able to go at a comfortable "all day" kind of pace.  With sprint triathlon, it's all about speed and I think I got really caught up in continually trying to get faster - so heaps of speed work with very little "enjoyment" running.  I also like the advice about how important it is not to burn out, so steep inclines are best tackled by power walking (or walking).  I focus a lot on my perceived effort, so if I can run it easily I do, if I start to struggle, I drop back to a power walk.  I also get the opportunity to stop and take photos when I get to the top of the hill 😉

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2 hours ago, flathead said:

Go Cat Lady! I love running on trails. 

How did your old shoes trip you up? I am a pretty regular tripper, if that is what you call it. A couple of weeks ago I managed 2 trips within one 5km run along great north walk. I attributed it to being tired from a long run the day before. FP (somewhere in this thread probably) was trying to blame his tripping on shoes with a big stack height but I am not sure.

My current shoes are NB 1080s, big stack height and road grip only, definitely not made for trails but I have never had a problem with grip. That is probably because I never push the limits and haven't done a wet trail in 2+ years.

I wasn't 'trying' to blame anything, I was questioning whether it was a factor?  (pretty clear I thought).  Apart from a pair of Walsh shoes I had years ago, I've only had SGs (not sure why I have to type this again!), so I've had nothing else to compare to.

Now I have the Peregrine 10s, I can see if the lower stack height and better feel under foot contributed or not.   It also depends wildly on what you class as 'trails' and if you're not running wet trails, then your feet aren't constantly slipping sideways on roots, which can be a factor.

Cat Lady,  15km with 800 vert in 2hrs is pretty shifty, are those technical trails?  That's a very good effort and you will do well.  I do a local race every April which is 20.5kms and 650mtrs and the best I've done is 1hr52, which meant 11/200 overall, so you are nailing it!

Don't be afraid to walk if the hills are steep, you will 100% save more more time by doing that.  I had a trail marathon last year, 42kms with 850mtrs and some very steep hills but nothing super technical. It was 2 laps and even after the first km or so, I started walking the first of many steep hills and folks were passing me left right and centre. Towards the end of the first lap and the mid way point of the 2nd, I'd passed nearly all of them and they were now really paying for 'running' the steep ones.  I ended up coming 5th overall out of 40.

I've never had the 'walk theory' so starkly demonstrated as a great strategy as I did that day. Trot the gentle ones if you can (especially in a 21km) but if you need to walk, then 'walk with purpose) and you'll be paid back in spades

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Cat Lady, for got add.  One of the things that can really fatigue you (and comes as a shock to some) is how tiring (and painful) it can be when your feet at never flat.  The rocks, stones and roots have your feet at all angles and can kill your pace.

Obviously not so much an issue if you are running on gravel paths that can be tackled in road shoes (we don't call that a trail here) but something to consider. I've found stretch cord and bosu ball work can really help here with ankle strength.

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3 hours ago, FatPom said:

I wasn't 'trying' to blame anything, I was questioning whether it was a factor?  (pretty clear I thought).  Apart from a pair of Walsh shoes I had years ago, I've only had SGs (not sure why I have to type this again!), so I've had nothing else to compare to.

Now I have the Peregrine 10s, I can see if the lower stack height and better feel under foot contributed or not.   It also depends wildly on what you class as 'trails' and if you're not running wet trails, then your feet aren't constantly slipping sideways on roots, which can be a factor.

Cat Lady,  15km with 800 vert in 2hrs is pretty shifty, are those technical trails?  That's a very good effort and you will do well.  I do a local race every April which is 20.5kms and 650mtrs and the best I've done is 1hr52, which meant 11/200 overall, so you are nailing it!

Don't be afraid to walk if the hills are steep, you will 100% save more more time by doing that.  I had a trail marathon last year, 42kms with 850mtrs and some very steep hills but nothing super technical. It was 2 laps and even after the first km or so, I started walking the first of many steep hills and folks were passing me left right and centre. Towards the end of the first lap and the mid way point of the 2nd, I'd passed nearly all of them and they were now really paying for 'running' the steep ones.  I ended up coming 5th overall out of 40.

I've never had the 'walk theory' so starkly demonstrated as a great strategy as I did that day. Trot the gentle ones if you can (especially in a 21km) but if you need to walk, then 'walk with purpose) and you'll be paid back in spades

Yikes ! Fumble fingers, that was 500m not 800m 🤷‍♀️ Of climbing !  Need to proof read better.🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

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3 hours ago, FatPom said:

Cat Lady, for got add.  One of the things that can really fatigue you (and comes as a shock to some) is how tiring (and painful) it can be when your feet at never flat.  The rocks, stones and roots have your feet at all angles and can kill your pace.

Obviously not so much an issue if you are running on gravel paths that can be tackled in road shoes (we don't call that a trail here) but something to consider. I've found stretch cord and bosu ball work can really help here with ankle strength.

Thanks FP - I’ve been doing extra strength work on the lower limbs which I feel have made a difference. As far as footing goes  I much prefer running on the local single track trails however they tend to be busy with mountain bikers and I have to keep jumping into the scrub to let them by!

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18 minutes ago, Cat Lady said:

Yikes ! Fumble fingers, that was 500m not 800m 🤷‍♀️ Of climbing !  Need to proof read better.🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

That makes me feel better. 😅

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On 27/09/2020 at 7:16 PM, FatPom said:

This is a great film about the Bob Graham Round. Shows how majestic The Lakes can look and how quickly the weather can change.

 

 

Looks awesome, 

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9 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Looks awesome, 

Yeah, there is a winter version as well.  It's a serious undertaking.  I think former Trannie 'Brick' attempted it and failed to make cut off and he's a better runner than I ever will be.

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