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Cardinal Pell


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If you actually read the first thing i wrote it was to the effect catholic church deserved a kicking for the history and its difficult to have faith in institutions. Quote one bit above where i've suggested otherwise. I don't quibble with editorial. You impute things that aren't said and then call out 'strawman'?

 

 

You might not quibble, but you cherry-pick the content. I quote you, and then detail that you're playing a strawman.

 

How does the left feel about that assange fella hiding away from his sex assault charges ? Its one conspiracy after another. Pell and his malpracticing vatican doctor to avoid fronting up to sex charges.

 

Start another thread on Assange, why bring it up here, what relevance does how the "left feel" have here? It's a red herring.

 

Explain the conspiracy, I really don't get what you're implying.

 

You are the only one mentioning malpractice and 'the' Doctor in the same sentence. All comments to date were about the conflict of interest relevant to the position the doctor found himself in.

 

 

And then julian assange. the poor innocent being falsely accused by the rabid swedish govt of sex charge - dastardly swedes renowned for their right wing govts and manufacturing of spurious sex charges.

 

Start another thread, not relevant, red herring.

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All I can say is that I am glad that Tim has done what he has....to bring it to the forefront and have people realize a little more of what may have been done, all I can do is wait my turn to give evi

I probably have a bit of a unique insight into this. I was at the school when the attacks happened: in year 11 to be exact. I knew/know many exCcathedral College choir kids. I attended the masses and

To be fair, Pell was a senior cleric in parishes all over the state/country that have had thousands of cases of proven child sexual abuse. In all these cases, it has since emerged that there were alwa

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And the issue of controversy re pell is - what is his responsibility for the kids who were abused. That's one of the things the RC will consider right? Minchin misses that nuance because he's reached his own conclusion.

 

 

Yes, that's what the Royal Commission is considering, and that's why they want to chat with him a third time - and there are many complaining about him needing to answer questions a third time!

 

All Minchin is asking is for him to come and answer questions that the Royal Commission need to consider - Minchin doesn't draw conclusions, the song is a request, the clue is in the title Come Home (George Pell).

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Please read-up what a "conflict of interest" means mate, your comment shows you don't know at all.

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Let's try by example, please take this as an example and don't use it as a literal equivalent to the current discussion. I'm a TO. If I'm a TO on the bike and my mates are racing, let's say for argument's sake that one is a Pro and is in with a shout at a podium place. Before the race has even began, before any actual issue has arisen (are we clear so far? Nobody is even in the water yet, let alone been carded on the bike), there is a conflict of interest. There's my interest in seeing my mate podium, and there's my interest in upholding my duty as a TO. I know I will uphold my duty as a TO, but to everyone else there could possibly be a conflict of interest. IT DOES NOT MATTER whether anything has resulted from it. Let me quote from Wikipedia (my bold):

 

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See the bold, does it make sense?

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Let's look at it the other way. If a Doctor who was abused at the hands of a priest when younger was called on to assess whether Pell could travel, there absolutely is a conflict of interest there as well.

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Please tell me you understand the concept of conflict of interest now!

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Thank goodness for the trade union royal commission i guess.

Channeling the 'I'm not biased, just ask me' Dyson Heydon ... Edited by Andrew #1
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You might not quibble, but you cherry-pick the content. I quote you, and then detail that you're playing a strawman.

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Start another thread on Assange, why bring it up here, what relevance does how the "left feel" have here? It's a red herring.

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Explain the conspiracy, I really don't get what you're implying.

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You are the only one mentioning malpractice and 'the' Doctor in the same sentence. All comments to date were about the conflict of interest relevant to the position the doctor found himself in.

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Start another thread, not relevant, red herring.

The critique of posters like trybebore40 is largely premised on core issues like christians aren't really christian because they believe in traditional marriage, secure borders etc. The world would be a better place if they got with humanist values etc.

 

You don't think that's a political point?

 

And for goodness sake. If the medical opinion was correct. You are fretting over the perception of conflict when every other cardiologist from every other faith would arrive at the same conclusion.

Edited by Formerly known as BOTP II
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The critique of posters like trybebore40 is largely premised on core issues like christians aren't really christian because they believe in traditional marriage, secure borders etc. The world would be a better place if they got with humanist values etc.

 

You don't think that's a political point?

 

And for goodness sake. If the medical opinion was correct. You are fretting over the perception of conflict when every other cardiologist from every other faith would arrive at the same conclusion.

I'll leave you and TryTri thrash that out, but Humanist and Christian discussions are not political, philosophical perhaps, but not political IMHO. I don't think you can say that being Humanist is exclusive to those who lean left, and don't think it can be a political discussion because of that. Happy to be shown otherwise but I know Humanists who lean right and Christians who lean left and vice versa.

 

Not 'conflict', but 'conflict of interest'. We have no evidence whether it was or was not correct, and neither you (nor I) can comment for cardiologists and their conclusions. I'm beginning to feel like it's groundhog day :smile1:

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I don't think I've ever read something on the net and come this close to tears before! **** me.

 

You can believe in god, but how the hell you can have faith in these people or their church after reading that, unless you don't believe them, is beyond me! While I am not surprised by what I read, I'm still horrified and can't believe the depths of how far it went.

 

And I believe these people over Pell or any priest any day of the week. To not believe this, the extent to which it went on, or to believe that these pigs had no idea it was going on......... Pell is named by people as having been told of this. He is named by people as them having gone to him to seek his help. He is named as having ignored them, or attempting to bribe them. I can't recall can't cut it. There is no decent person on this planet that would ever forget something like a child telling them that they are being abused. No one! If he can't recall then he is suffering dementia. If he is suffering dementia then he shouldn't be holding such an office for the Vatican. He is a liar and a pig. People may believe he will get his when his time has ended, but if there is even a .00000000000000001% chance there is no god or heaven then he needs to pay now.

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This makes some pretty harrowing reading, and again hard to imagine more wasn't "known" by those in power.

 

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/feature/girls-paedophile-and-cardinal-pell

More was known. The bishop who was risdale's boss was a witness last week. His evidence was pathetic.

 

But regarding pell, being a flat mate of risdale's in the 70s (while an assistant priest) raises a query but does not establish knowledge of what risdale was up to.

Edited by Formerly known as BOTP II
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Paul Bongiorno (of radio national and the project fame) shared a house with risdale and has said:

 

'I had no idea what he was up to, he said. And when people look at me quizzically, I say let me tell you this.

 

'There are married men and women now who sleep with their husbands and wives and donât know that their husband or wife is having an affair.

 

Let me tell you that Ridsdale never came to the presbytery in Warrnambool and said, Guess how many boys Iâve raped today'.

 

Very sensitive indeed from mr bonjiorno. But i gather his point is that one is not guilty by association only.

Edited by Formerly known as BOTP II
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This makes some pretty harrowing reading, and again hard to imagine more wasn't "known" by those in power.

 

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/feature/girls-paedophile-and-cardinal-pell

 

Very depressing article, so sad, so very sad. Apart from the obvious horrendous abuse, one minor fact also stood out for me, and that's the callousness and clear loveless nature of the nun's order: not allowing a loving mother to have contact with her child, who she had to place in care due to circumstances at home.

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Paul Bongiorno (of radio national and the project fame) shared a house with risdale and has said:

 

âI had no idea what he was up to,â he said. âAnd when people look at me quizzically, I say let me tell you this.

 

âThere are married men and women now who sleep with their husbands and wives and donât know that their husband or wife is having an affair.

 

âLet me tell you that Ridsdale never came to the presbytery in Warrnambool and said, âGuess how many boys Iâve raped todayâ

Absolutely. From experience I can say you can not know.

 

Cept some came to Pell, for help. Seems to me he might have known then!

 

**** him.

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Very depressing article, so sad, so very sad. Apart from the obvious horrendous abuse, one minor fact also stood out for me, and that's the callousness and clear loveless nature of the nun's order: not allowing a loving mother to have contact with her child, who she had to place in care due to circumstances at home.

You guys are all young right?

 

The brothers and nuns were all total hard A---s. They were making movies 40 years ago about the sexual dysfunction driving them batty.

 

Any institution with the care of kids going back 30-40 years was a disaster.

Edited by Formerly known as BOTP II
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Just had a look at the Sisters of Nazareth Mission Statement - very strange way to 'share the love of god' in the way they treated those poor children!

 

We, the Sisters of Nazareth, aim to share the love of God through our ministries of care and education and our openness to respond to the needs of the times.

Whatsoever you do to the least of my people
you do to me.

Words of Jesus Christ (Matt.25:40)

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You guys are all young right?

 

The brothers and nuns were all total hard A---s. They were making movies 40 years ago about the sexual dysfunction driving them batty.

 

Any institution with the care of kids going back 30-40 years was a disaster.

 

Define 'young', I race 45-49. My father was sent to an institution as a child.

 

By 'sexual dysfunction', do you mean abstinence? Because, according to that article, they sure as hell didn't abstain!

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But he strongly denies it. And you probably know very little about his accuser. Who may. Or may not be credible.

You left the 's' off the end of the accuser ;)

 

I know who I'm believing in all of this. He wouldn't be the first person in the world to say he wasn't guilty. And I have no doubts his loyalty to the church comes first and foremost.

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You guys are all young right?

 

The brothers and nuns were all total hard A---s. They were making movies 40 years ago about the sexual dysfunction driving them batty.

 

Any institution with the care of kids going back 30-40 years was a disaster.

 

Young enough and old enough to have had Nuns and Christian brothers running 4 of the 5 schools I attended. The 5th one had just gotten rid of the last of them by the time I got there. The second last one was full of rumours of you name it, but it was also the only one I went to that included borders.

 

And yes, I agree with you on the sexual dysfunction. Maybe that's why many of the churches that have split off over the years have allowed female pastors, marriage etc etc. Cause they new what celibacy was doing.

 

Just because every institution going back that far was a disaster (your words) doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to those causing the disaster. Many don't wanna turn a blind eye.

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Young enough and old enough to have had Nuns and Christian brothers running 4 of the 5 schools I attended. ÃÂ The 5th one had just gotten rid of the last of them by the time I got there. ÃÂ The second last one was full of rumours of you name it, but it was also the only one I went to that included borders.

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And yes, I agree with you on the sexual dysfunction. ÃÂ Maybe that's why many of the churches that have split off over the years have allowed female pastors, marriage etc etc. ÃÂ Cause they new what celibacy was doing.

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Just because every institution going back that far was a disaster (your words) doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to those causing the disaster. ÃÂ Many don't wanna turn a blind eye.ÃÂ

Who is advocating turning a blind eye?

 

Pell is one player in an organisational fail of a large scale. His role and degree of culpability in that has not been determined.

Edited by Formerly known as BOTP II
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A blind eye was turned by many over the years, seems it was an idea advocated by many. And if the whole institution cannot be brought to task for its endemic problem, then I'm happy for some individuals to pay for their part.

 

I can't recall, is not acceptable. If anyone, whether a child or adult, came to a priest and reported advise by other priests within the parish, then there is no way in hell any person of any decent quality would ever forget that for the rest of their life. It's not 'I don't recall'. It's yes, or no. His facilities are well enough for him to hold a position of some note within the church. They're good enough to remember something so reprehensible it should be burned into his memory for life.

 

I get that you want to stand up for the 'not proven guilty', and accept that unless proven then nothing happened involving him. But people lie all the time, and I can bet it's not the first time someone has led to protect the church too. Cause the higher the chain goes, the worse it gets for them.

 

I am more than happy to disagree with you on this (we surely have on many issues) and sadly I have no doubt that in the end nothing will come of this commission, and those poor victims will never truly get the justice they deserve. And odds are, with little likelihood of a god and heaven, neither will Pell.

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There's a lot of talk about justice and action to hold the church accountable.

 

But what do people want to happen? Specifically within our system, what is a satisfactory outcome for an action for "the church"?

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No one has pasted Tim Minchin's latest song yet have they?

 

Come home Cardinal Pell.

 

 

Brilliant. Loved it.

 

1st post of the thread RS - easy to miss because it's so far back :)

Edited by trinube
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There's a lot of talk about justice and action to hold the church accountable.

 

But what do people want to happen? Specifically within our system, what is a satisfactory outcome for an action for "the church"?

I think the victims should answer but at a guess. Acknowledge and apologise. Pay compensation without scrimping. And put in place measures so it never happens again. If the church could pull its head out of its arse and stop trying to protect itself it would see this as an opportunity for redemption and a way to move forward with some self respect. Edited by A2K
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There's a lot of talk about justice and action to hold the church accountable.

 

But what do people want to happen? Specifically within our system, what is a satisfactory outcome for an action for "the church"?

 

There won't be a satisfactory outcome, as this is just a commission. There's no jury, and Pell will say nothing of consequence. He'll be replying like he's on trial and claiming not guilty, so what will come of this - nothing. Except for more condemnation from those of us that do not believe him, some condemnation for the church.

 

BOTP said one thing that was spot on. This isn't something restricted to just the church or church run orphanages. And I have no doubts in my mind that this has gone on for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The difference being we have finally reached a time where it will no longer be closed eyes and ears about it. As a people we had to reach the point where we wouldn't stand for this any more, where even christians could be horrified by what was happening within their organisation and want it held accountable, regardless of their beliefs. That they could accept that these monsters did not need to be held up as above other ordinary people.

 

And, if by some miracle, Pell was going to see his day in court over all this. He'll never set foot out of the Vatican again.

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I think the victims should answer but at a guess. Acknowledge and apologise. Pay compensation without scrimping. And put in place measures so it never happens again. If the church could pull its head out of its arse and stop trying to protect itself it would see this as an opportunity for redemption and a way to move forward with some self respect.

Wish I'd waited to post..... what you said was much better!

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There's a lot of talk about justice and action to hold the church accountable.

 

But what do people want to happen? Specifically within our system, what is a satisfactory outcome for an action for "the church"?

Before we can talk about justice and accountability, we need honesty and disclosure.

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I caught 15 minutes of the Cardinal's testimony this morning. Words to the affect of "It was a sad story but I just had little interest in it" followed by audible gasps from the audience.

 

Like I said in my first post here - prick of the highest order - #pelltohell

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There are some things that should not be bound by the seal of confession. Actually, confession is bullshit, penance is bullshit....Catholicism is bullshit. All organised religion is bullshit, as the protestants are not excluded either.

 

He said earlier that the behaviour did not "interest him" I'm not sure I can watch anymore...

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There are some things that should not be bound by the seal of confession. Actually, confession is bullshit, penance is bullshit....Catholicism is bullshit. All organised religion is bullshit, as the protestants are not excluded either.

 

I have no desire to insult anyone because of their faiths, but I agree with this

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I caught 15 minutes of the Cardinal's testimony this morning. Words to the affect of "It was a sad story but I just had little interest in it" followed by audible gasps from the audience.

 

Like I said in my first post here - prick of the highest order - #pelltohell

Indeed. There was a coordinated gasp in our household this morning.

 

This will not end well for Pell. Hopefully there will be some better outcomes for the victims.

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He said earlier that the behaviour did not "interest him" I'm not sure I can watch anymore...

Did he truly say this? May be the most truthful thing he's said thus far. I'm sure there'll be statements that it was taken out of context.

 

If he really said this, then he is worse than I even imagined. I never thought he necessarily did anything to kids himself. It's one thing to be the sick **** who touches kids. It's completely another, and if you ask me nearly worse, to be the not sick ****er that turns a blind eye because 'it's not interesting enough' for them! ****er needs to burn.

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I have no desire to insult anyone because of their faiths, but I agree with this

 

I'm Christian (Pentecostal Baptised as an adult - and not Hillsong) I'm starting to question all of my beliefs... :confused1:

Edited by MissJess
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Did he truly say this? May be the most truthful thing he's said thus far. I'm sure there'll be statements that it was taken out of context.

 

If he really said this, then he is worse than I even imagined. I never thought he necessarily did anything to kids himself. It's one thing to be the sick **** who touches kids. It's completely another, and if you ask me nearly worse, to be the not sick ****er that turns a blind eye because 'it's not interesting enough' for them! ****er needs to burn.

 

He also referred to the discussions in the community at the time as "gossip".

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I'm Christian (Pentecostal Baptised as an adult - and not Hillsong) I'm starting to question all of my beliefs... :confused1:

Big thing to admit. I won't deny that I've said plenty about /against church, here and elsewhere. I myself have no true idea what my real belief system is, had been up in the air for many many years. But remember, Faith in what you believe, and Faith in the church are two different things. The church is just a group of people, they can let you down.
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There's a lot of talk about justice and action to hold the church accountable.

 

But what do people want to happen? Specifically within our system, what is a satisfactory outcome for an action for "the church"?

A public stoning of George Pell.

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I'm Christian (Pentecostal Baptised as an adult - and not Hillsong) I'm starting to question all of my beliefs... :confused1:

Don't confuse an institution with the person of Jesus. Read Mark's gospel in a single sitting (it will take about an hour) and re-calibrate.

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While not being able to find coverage of his latest testimony, Ex's point is exactly what I was going to say, this crap sounds like some politician's weasel words, not those of a man of God. And the vatican and their machinations to maintain central power and influence are akin to politicians in Parliament House, far removed from everyday life. Pope Francis has been like a breath of fresh air, hopefully he can clean out some dead wood as Pell's polling numbers would not be tracking well, to coin a phrase.

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