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Kamala lets her mask slip the day before the election 

The statement in her tweet is true.  The cartoon shows she has no idea of what that difference really is 

 

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A few posts of the last 24hrs have been deleted. I don't have time to go over the previous 96 pages.  If it's not adding value to the thread, discussing politics in a respectful manner towards th

If the last few months have taught me anything it’s that when you peel back the thin veneer the US is a mighty screwed up place on oh so many fronts.   

The sandbox is for non Tri related topics.  It’s not a place for people to carry on like idiots. 

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

Kamala lets her mask slip the day before the election 

The statement in her tweet is true.  The cartoon shows she has no idea of what that difference really is 

 

It was good until the last line. Equality does not mean we all end up at the same place....

Edited by dazaau
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3 hours ago, Diamonds said:

More, without specifics, I have spoken to a numbers of returning Americans in the last few weeks as they enter our country.  Roxii is on point.  The Donald disciples are in denial of Covid based on his "nothing to see here" response so don't wear masks and don't social distance.   That has to have an influence on transmission rates.  A number of them have told me they are glad to be from neighbourhoods ignoring the president and adhering to the medical/scientific advice on covid.  They are also glad to be out.  They would rather be here.

My cousin and his wife both lecture at Yale.  They both and child arrived back in Sydney 3 weeks ago and are super glad to be out of the USA and in Newcastle.  
 

they said doing online lectures in the middle of the night is better than being there. 
 

they hate trump and his supporters.  They agree Biden isn’t going to be much better but said you have to vote for one.

 

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10 minutes ago, dazaau said:

It was good until the last line. Equality does not mean we ask end up at the same place....

Correct.  And this is one of the fundamental differences between leftist and conservative philosophy

Conservatives believe in equality of opportunity.  The left believe in equality of outcome, so any inequality that may exist is evidence of inequity which must be corrected by the government 

That last line could have been written by Marx himself.  If Biden does get up tomorrow, he should probably avoid being alone in a room with one of Kalama's mates and an icepick...

 

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4 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Conservatives believe in equality of opportunity.  The left believe in equality of outcome, so any inequality that may exist is evidence of inequity which must be corrected by the government 

I disagree with this statement.  I also hate labels, but using these labels, I would say that conservative strive to keep the status quo and don't recognise that people do not have the same opportunities. I would be considered to be left leaning and I believe that if people do not start from the same start point, then huge efforts should be made to rectify this and give the person at the bottom of the ladder the tools to reach the top of the ladder.  

I also agree that the last sentence of that cartoon isn't the best - the cartoon should had said "...means that we all have the opportunity to end up at the same place"

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Exactly. The very definition of conservative is wanting to protect (or conserve) the status quo - but that fails to recognise the status quo was built on centuries of inequality 

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58 minutes ago, truck said:

So will there be riots on here once the results are known?

100%. It won’t matter who wins.

LA won the baseball World Series. 
 

people in LA had riots. 

 

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If Trump wins another 4 years, my wife will ban me from this thread. :lol::lol::lol: ( And I will comply )

I hope his reign ends. Full stop!

I have no qualms in saying I find the man and everything about him abominable. 

So no "riot" from me. Just I hope that sanity prevails.

 

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At least he hasn’t sent his troops into war in the last 4 years.  
 

something not many American presidents can say. Some but not many 

a quick good says only The below out of 45 presidents have not begun a new war

Quote

Presidents John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama off the list of presidents who waged new wars

 

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2 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I disagree with this statement.  I also hate labels, but using these labels, I would say that conservative strive to keep the status quo and don't recognise that people do not have the same opportunities.

Well, no

What conservatives actually seek to conserve are the principles and value system that has underpinned the greatest societal and political structure in the history of makind - western civilisation 

Of course not everyone is going to have the same opportunities, and there are people in genuine need.  But the fact remains that it's not possible to achieve equality without imposing some sort of inequity

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7 minutes ago, Peter said:

At least he hasn’t sent his troops into war in the last 4 years.  
 

something not many American presidents can say. Some but not many 

a quick good says only The below out of 45 presidents have not begun a new war

 

What is Obama doing on that list?

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7 minutes ago, Peter said:

It seems USA Today are happy to give Barry a free pass on Libya, and all the other countries he droned

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17 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Well, no

What conservatives actually seek to conserve are the principles and value system that has underpinned the greatest societal and political structure in the history of makind - western civilisation 

Of course not everyone is going to have the same opportunities, and there are people in genuine need.  But the fact remains that it's not possible to achieve equality without imposing some sort of inequity

That’s all great when you’re one of the privileged ones. Maybe you’d have a different view if you walked in someone else’s shoes?

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1 minute ago, truck said:

That’s all great when you’re one of the privileged ones. Maybe you’d have a different view if you walked in someone else’s shoes?

What's privallage? I had a tight group of  about 10 mates in highschool. 4 of them dropped out in year 10 and took up trades and I can can you they are far far ahead financially than the other 6 that stuck it out through uni..? 

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6 minutes ago, more said:

What's privallage? I had a tight group of  about 10 mates in highschool. 4 of them dropped out in year 10 and took up trades and I can can you they are far far ahead financially than the other 6 that stuck it out through uni..? 

Remove the opportunity either in this country or another, replace it with high youth unemployment, throw in some alcohol and drug abuse in your community and maybe the outcome would have been markedly different? We are so fortunate here and there are so many safety nets in place. 

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11 minutes ago, truck said:

Remove the opportunity either in this country or another, replace it with high youth unemployment, throw in some alcohol and drug abuse in your community and maybe the outcome would have been markedly different? We are so fortunate here and there are so many safety nets in place. 

And what better way to improve that opportunity than to stimulate the economy. 

Make people adopt a victim mentally and dependent on welfare and  nothing will ever change. 

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1 minute ago, truck said:

That’s all great when you’re one of the privileged ones. Maybe you’d have a different view if you walked in someone else’s shoes?

Oh goody 

We haven't had any 'you don't care about other people as much as I do' bullshit for a while 

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Watching a replay of Jennie Brockie's last episode of "Insight" on SBS atm.

About families here in Australia that cannot afford to feed themselves and their families on a daily basis.

Looking at them, they look like everyday " middle class M&D + kids" . You'd never pick it.

3.6 million people in Oz that are "food insecure every day".

THAT'S HARDLY THE "LUCKY COUNTRY".

 

 

 

 

That is not a victim mentality. That is just sh#+.

 

 

Edited by Dave T
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Dixfield Notch cast the first votes at 12am on Election Day.

5/0 Biden.👍

 

 

 

 

( Mind you, the township a couple of k's away went 16/5 Trump, so maybe it's a bit early to call just yet 😆)

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1 hour ago, more said:

What's privallage? I had a tight group of  about 10 mates in highschool. 4 of them dropped out in year 10 and took up trades and I can can you they are far far ahead financially than the other 6 that stuck it out through uni..? 

All 10 were privileged! 4 dropped out and got a trade, 6 went to uni. Privilege!!!  

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10 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

All 10 were privileged! 4 dropped out and got a trade, 6 went to uni. Privilege!!!  

Every one of the 10 who left school early landed an apprenticeship, and everyone that didn’t went on to Uni 🤔

I don’t know them so I don’t know if they’re  privileged or not, but that’s certainly more apprentices and uni students than my entire year at school.

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On 01/11/2020 at 9:54 PM, IronJimbo said:

Electors vote for a presidential ticket as well as house and senate reps for their state

Each state has a specific number of electors in the electoral college, which has 538 members in total.  E.g. California has 55, Rhode Island has 4

The presidential ticket which receives the most votes in each state gets the electoral college votes for that state.  The winner of the presidential election is the ticket which receives the most electoral college votes from the states they have won.

270 to win

OK, explain this to me again. If the Electoral college is made up a certain number of electors, which then go on to win the state.  How is that any different to individuals voting for a local member in their area and compiling the overall result?

I'm confused.

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4 hours ago, BogFrog said:

All 10 were privileged! 4 dropped out and got a trade, 6 went to uni. Privilege!!!  

When anyone can attend school it's not privilege, just as there is nothing stopping anyone getting an apprenticeship or studying and attending uni. 

Privallage would be only people with money can attend school, in Australia this is not the case. 

Hundreds of thousands of boat people have arrived here with not a cent to their name and made themselves a successful life. 

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4 hours ago, Mike Del said:

Every one of the 10 who left school early landed an apprenticeship, and everyone that didn’t went on to Uni 🤔

I don’t know them so I don’t know if they’re  privileged or not, but that’s certainly more apprentices and uni students than my entire year at school.

Wow sounds like you went to a special school.... 

 

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3 hours ago, more said:

When anyone can attend school it's not privilege, just as there is nothing stopping anyone getting an apprenticeship or studying and attending uni. 

Privallage would be only people with money can attend school, in Australia this is not the case. 

Hundreds of thousands of boat people have arrived here with not a cent to their name and made themselves a successful life. 

Each of the 10 people were able to get an apprenticeship.  Each of the 10 went to school.  Now compare that to someone who can't get a trade as there are no apprenticeships available.  Someone who comes from a poor socio-economic background who is expected to leave school asap to get a job to help pay the bills. Now who is priviledged?  Or compare it to someone who can't get a job because of the colour of their skin, or because of their surname?

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6 hours ago, FatPom said:

OK, explain this to me again. If the Electoral college is made up a certain number of electors, which then go on to win the state.  How is that any different to individuals voting for a local member in their area and compiling the overall result?

I'm confused.

The voters in the electoral college are delegates.  They vote to elect the president in December according to how their state voted in the election

E..g. Biden will get a majority of presidential votes in California, so the 55 delegates from California will vote for him

To win the presidency you have to win enough states to get 270 electoral college votes.  Regardless of how many votes you actually get on election day, each state is only worth the number of college votes 

Hillary got huge votes last time in populous states like California and New York which is why she won the popular vote.  But Trump won enough smaller states like Michigan and Wisconsin to get 304 electoral college votes.  Which is why national polls are pretty much meaningless 

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34 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

Each of the 10 people were able to get an apprenticeship.  Each of the 10 went to school.  Now compare that to someone who can't get a trade as there are no apprenticeships available.  Someone who comes from a poor socio-economic background who is expected to leave school asap to get a job to help pay the bills. Now who is priviledged?  Or compare it to someone who can't get a job because of the colour of their skin, or because of their surname?

Which country are you referring to? I worked a full-time job while I went to uni doing night school, and there are plenty (probably majority) of tradies with foreign or non Anglo surnames. 

If you look for an excuse to fail you will always find one.. 

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21 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

The voters in the electoral college are delegates.  They vote to elect the president in December according to how their state voted in the election

E..g. Biden will get a majority of presidential votes in California, so the 55 delegates from California will vote for him

To win the presidency you have to win enough states to get 270 electoral college votes.  Regardless of how many votes you actually get on election day, each state is only worth the number of college votes 

Hillary got huge votes last time in populous states like California and New York which is why she won the popular vote.  But Trump won enough smaller states like Michigan and Wisconsin to get 304 electoral college votes.  Which is why national polls are pretty much meaningless 

OK thanks,,but,,,if the proportion of population in each state determines how many electoral votes each state has, surely the popular vote should determine the outcome shouldn't it?  The only way it couldn't, is if some small states have more electoral votes than their population should warrant.

Either that or I'm really not getting it (highly likely)

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11 minutes ago, FatPom said:

OK thanks,,but,,,if the proportion of population in each state determines how many electoral votes each state has, surely the popular vote should determine the outcome shouldn't it?  The only way it couldn't, is if some small states have more electoral votes than their population should warrant.

Either that or I'm really not getting it (highly likely)

Both things can happen - there is a minimum number of electoral college delegates per state, so the less populous states have greater influence on a per capita basis (a bit like our senate).  In addition, if some states are won narrowly by one candidate but others are one-sided, it makes no difference to the way their delegates' votes are counted.  So even if the number of delegates per state were based purely on population, it is still very possible that the winner won't be the person with the highest popular vote.  

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10 minutes ago, FatPom said:

OK thanks,,but,,,if the proportion of population in each state determines how many electoral votes each state has, surely the popular vote should determine the outcome shouldn't it?  The only way it couldn't, is if some small states have more electoral votes than their population should warrant.

Either that or I'm really not getting it (highly likely)

The electoral college allocation is based on total congressional representation from each state.  E.g. California has 53 house reps and two senators = 55 college votes

Smaller states like Delaware have only one house rep so their college allocation of three is skewed by their two senators. So you could say Delaware's population is over-represented in the electoral college, but that's also the case in the senate itself.  The system was designed that way to prevent big states from riding roughshod over smaller states based on 50.1% of the national vote 

Some might say that's not democratic, but the United States is not a democracy.  Its a republic 

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18 minutes ago, FatPom said:

OK thanks,,but,,,if the proportion of population in each state determines how many electoral votes each state has, surely the popular vote should determine the outcome shouldn't it?  The only way it couldn't, is if some small states have more electoral votes than their population should warrant.

Either that or I'm really not getting it (highly likely)

https://www.fairvote.org/population_vs_electoral_votes

For example,

Wyoming has three electoral votes and only 532,668 citizens (as of 2008 estimates). As a result each of Wyoming's three electoral votes corresponds to 177,556 people. Understood in one way, these people have 3.18 times as much clout in the Electoral College as an average American.

Compare that to California which has 55 electoral college votes for a population of 55+million

 

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

https://www.fairvote.org/population_vs_electoral_votes

For example,

Wyoming has three electoral votes and only 532,668 citizens (as of 2008 estimates). As a result each of Wyoming's three electoral votes corresponds to 177,556 people. Understood in one way, these people have 3.18 times as much clout in the Electoral College as an average American.

Compare that to California which has 55 electoral college votes for a population of 55+million

 

So I'm right then, the smaller states have a disproportionate number of electoral votes. But if they proportioned them out properly, there would be no need for the EC?

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Not necessarily.  That doesn't take into account the second part I mentioned. 

Eg New Jersey and North Carolina each have 15 delegates.  If NJ votes 90% Biden (no idea of the actual figures) then its 15 delegates all vote Biden.  But if NC votes 51/49 Trump, its 15 delegates all vote Trump, they don't split the vote to reflect the popular vote in that state.  So the popular vote across the two states could be 70/30 Biden but it ends up being 50/50.

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21 minutes ago, FatPom said:

So I'm right then, the smaller states have a disproportionate number of electoral votes. But if they proportioned them out properly, there would be no need for the EC?

Correct, 

California's influence would theoretically rise from 10.2% to 11.9%, and Wyoming's influence would fall from 0.56% to 0.17%

But California's population is big enough that its influence could rise even higher than that

%

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10 hours ago, BogFrog said:

All 10 were privileged! 4 dropped out and got a trade, 6 went to uni. Privilege!!!  

Sounds like choice to me rather than privilege. Just because someone went to Uni doesn't means they are privileged! 

Edited by IronmanFoz
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10 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

Sounds like choice to me rather than privilege. Just because someone went to Uni doesn't means they are privileged! 

I think the point she is trying to make is all 10 had an option. In some countries getting a job is like winning the lottery. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

Sounds like choice to me rather than privilege. Just because someone went to Uni doesn't means they are privileged! 

Encouraging people to believe success is a result of 'privilege'' rather than hard work does them absolutely no favor's...a victim mentality is the worst possible thing someone can develop or adopt...

Perhaps this is why asians are so successful, they just get on with the job and don't feel sorry for themselves. Many would have experienced disadvantage, come from absolute dire poverty and incurred racism, yet they are so successful they have a problem with loosing college placements in the US to lower performing students purely based on race.

"By most standards, Austin Jia holds an enviable position. A rising sophomore at Duke, Mr. Jia attends one of the top universities in the country, setting him up for success.

But with his high G.P.A., nearly perfect SAT score and activities — debate team, tennis captain and state orchestra — Mr. Jia believes he should have had a fair shot at Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and the University of Pennsylvania. Those Ivy League colleges rejected him after he applied in the fall of 2015.

It was particularly disturbing, Mr. Jia said, when classmates with lower scores than his — but who were not Asian-American, like him — were admitted to those Ivy League institutions.

“My gut reaction was that I was super disillusioned by how the whole system was set up,” Mr. Jia, 19, said.

Students like Mr. Jia are now the subject of a lawsuit accusing Harvard of discriminating against Asian-Americans in admissions by imposing a penalty for their high achievement and giving preferences to other racial minorities."

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9 minutes ago, more said:

Students like Mr. Jia are now the subject of a lawsuit accusing Harvard of discriminating against Asian-Americans in admissions by imposing a penalty for their high achievement and giving preferences to other racial minorities."

Just to go slightly off topic, How does this differ from a highly qualified male missing on on a position to a less qualified female because of "quotas"?  Or does it?

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1 minute ago, -- AJ -- said:

Just to go slightly off topic, How does this differ from a highly qualified male missing on on a position to a less qualified female because of "quotas"?  Or does it?

Thats a slightly different kettle of fish IMHO but in regards to privilege and opportunity... how would you be, your parents flee Vietnam on a sinking boat, make it to a new country with not a cent to their name, they work 24/7, scrimp and save and instill a hard work ethos in you to study and strive for success and you lose out on a College placement PURELY due to your asian race......

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23 minutes ago, more said:

Thats a slightly different kettle of fish IMHO but in regards to privilege and opportunity... how would you be, your parents flee Vietnam on a sinking boat, make it to a new country with not a cent to their name, they work 24/7, scrimp and save and instill a hard work ethos in you to study and strive for success and you lose out on a College placement PURELY due to your asian race......

The same way I'd feel if my parents came out here from UK as 10 pound poms, with little more than the clothes they had on their back, scrimped and saved to get me to school and then uni and then after 30 years of gaining qualifications and relevant work experience to miss out on a position because somebody decided that there needed to be more women in management positions.  

It wasn't me but I know the bloke this happened to.

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