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Bitcoin.

The new world currency or a techno fad?

Do you understand it?

Have you bought any?

Are you familiar with bitcoin mining and do you do it? Does it pay?

 

Your thoughts please. :)

 

....and who is Satoshi Nakamoto....?

Edited by Pete
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Fad. Some smart guys idea to make money by selling people something which is nothing, and convince them is worth something when in reality is worth noting.

 

I have no real idea what it is, other than it seems nothing.

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Dunno

 

I reckon it won't be far away that money isn't actually physical cash anymore and we just use electronic transactions - even for the smallest stuf like coffee and parking...so maybe bitcoin will just become another currency...

 

Saw a guy in a coffee shop in the UK last year pay for a coffee by waving his hand over the cash machine thingy - he had a wrist band on and said that they were being used in lots of music festivals etc so people didnt have to carry money..... he told me that more and more stores were getting readers (it was a starbucks that I was in...)

 

So if we end up spending money thats just an electronic transaction then why wouldn't bitcoin (or similar) work....

 

 

Having said that, I don't have any, nor know anyone that does...

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I'm just spewing that westpac won't let me pay for stuff with my phone cause its not a Samsung!

 

Won't be long the only way to steal someone's money will be to cut off their hand to access the chip buried inside!

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If you got in early you could have made some money, I think I read a while back that the FBI has the largest Bit-coin "wallet" with a few million USD worth in it. So there are not a lot of large players involved still.

 

Bit-Coin Mining is tough now, gone are the days you could make money using a PC, you need dedicated hardware on a medium to large scale and very cheap/free electricity to be a successful miner these days.

 

I reckon it's the future, maybe not bit-coin but some kind cryptocurrency. One positive I think could be that it may lead to a micro/nano payment system which may be the key to keeping social and commercial digital media alive. If a "like", "share" or "re tweet" cost people a 10th of a cent it would endow value onto contributions and provide more meaning to digital social interactions. Depending on the application of such payments it could lead to cottage type industries where people's skills can be rewarded, charities and other social movements can accumulate funding. New global not-for-profit Internet infrastructure could be funded with a 100th of a cent payment for each email for example... It would stop spammers too. Anyway, getting a bit off track there...

 

It will also decentralise global finance so the wealthy and powerful incumbents have less of an advantage when gaming the systems. If people from all over the world can exchange currency without banks, bureaucrats, Active payments and governments skimming and trading other peoples money during "transfers", that might be positive thing for less wealthy individuals.

 

I also think people should leave Satoshi alone, co's that seems like what he wants.

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I have no clue how Bitcoin actually works but understand it's just a form of virtual currency. It has no physical form. So, not much different to what we have now.

 

I do a week's work. At the end of that week my boss transfers virtual dollars from his account to my account. I can now use those virtual dollars to purchase goods and services from anyone that accepts that for of currency.

 

The only difference between that and Bitcoin is that I can now use those virtual dollars to purchase coloured plastic sheets that can also be used to purchase goods and services from anyone that accepts those plastic sheets as payment.

 

So, theoretically, I could pay someone a million virtual bananas for something and as long as they could find someone else that also accepts virtual bananas as payment then that is also currency.

 

Or am I completely off track?

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With the electronic money from your employer to you there are third parties involved, namely the banks. Also if you wanted to transactions overseas you need to pay exchange rates and transfer fees. With bit-coin there is none of that, no government controls it, no banks extract fees for moving it or holding it, there is no interest either. Another benefit is that it is global, its worth the same in every country at the same time.

 

It is anonymous which some people may appreciate as it is near impossible to make purchases online anonymously without it. Though there are risks that come with all this freedom... Not from the system itself, by it's design bit-coin can't be "hacked" but the private keys that access wallets can be stolen. Or wallet providers can be dodgy/scams...

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They actually fleshed out an American Japanese dude named (among other things) Satoshi Nakamoto who turned out to be just your ordinary multi millionare with no links to bitcoin however it sparked a forum response from the great man himself (the first since the mysterious disappearance) to say that this person was NOT the man.

 

There is no truth in the rumor that Transition's Goughy is, in fact, the father of bitcoin....

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Would this increase the difficulty of security agencies / police etc tracking criminal / terrorist funding etc? Or same as now just different methods?

 

I don't see why it would be any more difficult than tracking cash transaction, but it would be harder than an electronic fund transfer through banks.

 

Security and intelligence agencies would use the system too though, if the CIA want to fund a resistance group in Iran they can send them some untraceable bit-coin and deny then have anything to do with it. If ASIS want to pay a dude at a Jakarta Teleco to tap the Presidents phone bit-coin might be a easy way to pay them off without getting caught...

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Would this increase the difficulty of security agencies / police etc tracking criminal / terrorist funding etc? Or same as now just different methods?

 

Apparently the web page "silk road" - which was a kind of Ali baba for illegal things (mostly drugs) - used bitcoin to maintain the anonymity of the buyers (ghetto dealer punks with half an IT brain) and sellers (importers). It was so successful in doing that the FBI forcibly shut down the site and confiscated the assets - making the US government one of the largest single holders of bitcoin - around US$25 million!! lol

Edited by Pete
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Yeah, and then the site started again as SilkRoad 2.0 and the FBI had an "inside man" from the very beginning, surprise, surprise and they arrested a whole bunch more drug dealers when they shut it down a second time.

 

"These blast points are too accurate for sand people."

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The US SEC and IRS has stated that Bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency. Most govts are also looking at cryptocurrencies the same way and I would agree, they tend to behave and be used like a commodity, not a currency.

 

I would go further and say they are a worthless commodity as they solve exactly no issues in their current form and introduce a whoooooole of of other problems that frankly show exactly why banks are regulated. It is very much models on a pyramid scam and in many MANY cases businesses and exchanges dealing with Bitcoin have prven to be exactly that.

 

The story about how cryptocurrenices are anonymous isnt true at all either - they are very much tracable.

Bitcoin is deflationary in nature and under economic fundamentals, this is not good at all. Basically, Bitcoin is an interesting cryptograpy experiment but utterly worthless and should (hopefully) disappear into /dev/null where they belong. However one or two other cryptocurrencies are looking better - Dogecoin(!) is actually the one that is at least worth a laugh as the users know cryptocurrency is a joke and treat it like so - the side effect is they have created a pretty good community around it and it's a really good thing to study how a cryptocurrency can actually work. They alos have avoided the deflationary issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogecoin

Next issue - they can literally lose 50% value overnight. Stable? Nooooope.

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The US SEC and IRS has stated that Bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency. Most govts are also looking at cryptocurrencies the same way and I would agree, they tend to behave and be used like a commodity, not a currency.

 

I would go further and say they are a worthless commodity as they solve exactly no issues in their current form and introduce a whoooooole of of other problems that frankly show exactly why banks are regulated. It is very much models on a pyramid scam and in many MANY cases businesses and exchanges dealing with Bitcoin have prven to be exactly that.

 

The story about how cryptocurrenices are anonymous isnt true at all either - they are very much tracable.

 

Bitcoin is deflationary in nature and under economic fundamentals, this is not good at all. Basically, Bitcoin is an interesting cryptograpy experiment but utterly worthless and should (hopefully) disappear into /dev/null where they belong. However one or two other cryptocurrencies are looking better - Dogecoin(!) is actually the one that is at least worth a laugh as the users know cryptocurrency is a joke and treat it like so - the side effect is they have created a pretty good community around it and it's a really good thing to study how a cryptocurrency can actually work. They alos have avoided the deflationary issue

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogecoin

 

Next issue - they can literally lose 50% value overnight. Stable? Nooooope.

 

How do they track it, I didn't think you needed to provide ID to open a Bit-coin wallet?

 

I know there are methods to determine where the coins where mined and when they move from wallet to wallet but I don't think they can confirm who owns or has the keys for a wallet any more than they can tell who is connecting to a web site or checking an email account.

 

I think there is a real place for cryptocurrency in the future, it will be different than it is now but it has great potential...

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I am a fan. While this may not be the first virtual currency to take off and it may fail, i think it is certainly the gateway to the future.

 

Think about the benefits of being able to access such a virtual currency, particularly for those in countries with weak banking systems or those who don't have the ability to currently register for a credit card. Becoming the global currency.

 

If companies such as google enter the banking system, there is no reason why they wouldn't go down a similar path, so it may be in the future that we pay for items using 'googlies' or something.

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Can I ask a (very possibly stupid) question?

 

If I have an account with a bit coin exchange does that mean I have a bitcoin "wallet" or is the exchange the one with the wallet and they manage it on my account, or is a wallet something completely different?

 

..and whilst I have your attention....

 

If I have a computer that is on all (or almost all) the time why wouldn't I purchase an ASIC bitcoin minder device and let her rip? I know the returns are low but what is the down side - extra power due to the device (I think it is simply USB powered), admin charges?

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I don't actually have a wallet and have never used bit-coins, I just read stuff on the Internet about it... Though I have never found a good source for easy to understand information on how it all works.

 

Anyway, from my understanding you can create a "wallet" that is hosted online and you manage yourself, but the host doesn't have access to your wallet. An account at an exchange sounds something like paypal where they give you a wallet to use and keep it safe for you, so you don't have to worry about losing your private key and thus all your coins. Probably offer a login with password recovery and SMS verifications and alike to make sure nobody else takes your money. Like a regular bank or paypal you are trusting that they won't lose all your coins due to a security breach or just being dodgy. Both have happened in the past.

 

As CatTerrorist mentioned there have been scams where companies "run off" with the coins in their customers accounts and others that claim to offer "investment services" that pay interest on your coins but actually just steal your money... Just like regular financial scams really.

 

From what I have read the problem with mining is that as more people do it, the less likely you are to mine the coin(it is based on chance that you will mine the coin). So back when it was new you could use the spare processor time on you PC or video card to mine coins and make some money. Now there are so many large scale set-ups using dedicated hardware miners that you are unlikely to even brake even for the electricity used with a single miner running at home.

 

I saw this video a while back to see how it is done on a large scale these days...

 

 

 

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How do they track it, I didn't think you needed to provide ID to open a Bit-coin wallet?

 

I know there are methods to determine where the coins where mined and when they move from wallet to wallet but I don't think they can confirm who owns or has the keys for a wallet any more than they can tell who is connecting to a web site or checking an email account.

 

I think there is a real place for cryptocurrency in the future, it will be different than it is now but it has great potential...

 

I'm not 100% sure, I do know that successful tracking of transactions and linking them back to a wallet has been successful and been part of the absolute proliferation of scams and frankly outright libertarian garbage that surrounds Bitcoin and the like. Dogecoin avoids both scams and libertian garbage, which is more reason why it's likely to point to the real future of cryptocurrency.

 

 

 

If companies such as google enter the banking system, there is no reason why they wouldn't go down a similar path,

 

Why would they? As I said, Cryptocurrency solves no problems of our curreny fiat system and simply compounds the problems. There are perfectly acceptible mechanisms that Google already use and they have their own payment processors (Google Wallet) that is a mile better and has real safeguards.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sadly I think it's probably going to be more than a fad. It plays on greed, something for nothing. You gamble on a return. It's a great money spinner if you have a share in the power grid. You will probably end up cracking someones personal encrypted file, or rendering James Camerons next movie. Either way you can be sure that your processing power is being sold of at wholesale rates, to someone who is on-selling it. Lets cut the BS. If we are going to be able to produce money without working, then why bother with all the BS, lets just hand it out.

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Sadly I think it's probably going to be more than a fad. It plays on greed, something for nothing. You gamble on a return. It's a great money spinner if you have a share in the power grid. You will probably end up cracking someones personal encrypted file, or rendering James Camerons next movie. Either way you can be sure that your processing power is being sold of at wholesale rates, to someone who is on-selling it. Lets cut the BS. If we are going to be able to produce money without working, then why bother with all the BS, lets just hand it out.

 

I'm obviously very interested in this concept and not really across it but...

Doesn't a government simply print money - the cost price of a $100 note for example does not earn it a place in my wallet so what does? It is noted that some currencies are far more valuable than others - because of the supply and demand trade and a touch of might is right? Why wouldn't bitcoin ascend to such legitimacy based on the market and a global giant (eg google) taking it under its wing?

Edited by Pete
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I don't know where to start. This encroaches into so many areas that I am passionate about, and not for their continuance.


I'm probably not fully across it either, but I trust my interpretation of the key aspects, which may change if I receive new information.

1/ You process chunks of data.

2/ The return is random.

I don't subscribe to that model as being as being anything more than gambling, or the subcontracting of processing power.

1/ If it's gambling, then it's not a responsible basis to found any form of currency on.

2/ If it's subcontracting, then I would imagine a large majority are irresponsibly breaking their tax laws.


Your $100 is worth the value you place on it. Some people literally burn them for effect. Some people literally kill for less.


The share market is considered legitimate, so I see no reason why bitcoin couldn't ascend. I morn the legitimacy of both. I sincerely hope that Google would not back such a venture.


I feel the need to mention those new auction sites, where you pay to bid. Yes one person might get a cheap deal, but consider that if you win the bid to buy an iPad for $10.00, that the auction house has already made $1000 from the bids (when I looked into it you paid $1 to increase the bid by 1 cent). In my opinion people aren't making wise decisions in supporting these things.

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I don't think the return on bitcoin mining is random - I understand the return is equal based on effort but is diminishing proportionally to the number of bitcoins mined.

 

There are currently 14,200,200 bitcoins in circulation that, at the current market price, gives about AUD 4.3 billion in circulation.

 

So we are approx 2/3 of the way to the maximum amount of 21 million bitcoins - expected to be reached c. 2140, and when this is done record keeping will then be rewarded by transaction fees solely. (I am not sure what this actually means or how it will be done..?!)

 

...and since I bought my first bitcoins (on the day of the initial post) the price has remained fairly stable at about $306.10 but did go just under $311 on May 11th. Not that I am watching or anything.... :)

Edited by Pete
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What about Peercoin or Litecoin Pete? Purchasing some of them? You may not want all your holidays to be in Bit :shocking:

 

(Oh and you would have made 15% this week)

Edited by Steno
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Are you just performing the calculations for no reason, or is some work being done? Why would you need to process a block of data against multiple different values? It's called brute force decryption.

Obviously, there are only so many possible combinations, and odds are clearly in your favor that you will eventually find the key without running every iteration, but it's random as to how many of the iterations you have to run.

Source https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#solo-mining

The mining hardware iterates through every possible value for the block header nonce and generates the corresponding hash. If none of the hashes are below the threshold, the mining hardware gets an updated block header with a new merkle root from the mining software;

 

Seriously people, when's this madness going to end? Eg, Investing in weapons companies doesn't make you a killer, but at some point don't you need to ask if what you're doing has a positive result on anything other than the decimals on a piece of paper?

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Are you just performing the calculations for no reason, or is some work being done? Why would you need to process a block of data against multiple different values? It's called brute force decryption.

 

Obviously, there are only so many possible combinations, and odds are clearly in your favor that you will eventually find the key without running every iteration, but it's random as to how many of the iterations you have to run.

 

Source https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#solo-mining

 

Seriously people, when's this madness going to end? Eg, Investing in weapons companies doesn't make you a killer, but at some point don't you need to ask if what you're doing has a positive result on anything other than the decimals on a piece of paper?

 

 

Mining is the process of spending computing power to process transactions, secure the network, and keep everyone in the system synchronized together. It can be perceived like the Bitcoin data center except that it has been designed to be fully decentralized with miners operating in all countries and no individual having control over the network. This process is referred to as "mining" as an analogy to gold mining because it is also a temporary mechanism used to issue new bitcoins. Unlike gold mining, however, Bitcoin mining provides a reward in exchange for useful services required to operate a secure payment network. Mining will still be required after the last bitcoin is issued.

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What about Peercoin or Litecoin Pete? Purchasing some of them? You may not want all your holidays to be in Bit :shocking:

 

(Oh and you would have made 15% this week)

 

15%..?! Far canal! I'd bet get some of those! :)

Edited by Pete
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Mining is the process of spending computing power to process transactions,

- All pc computing is spending computing power to process transactions!

Mining is the process of spending computing power to secure the network,

- Wow, using my computer secures the internet. How so?

Mining is the process of spending computing power to keep everyone in the system synchronized together.

- Um, you mean I can't connect to other people on the internet without some form of computer. Why can't I just speak to it?

It can be perceived like the Bitcoin data center

- So it's like the data center....

except that it has been designed to be fully decentralized with miners operating in all countries and no individual having control over the network.

- So it's like the data center, but it uses distributed computing, rather than centralized.


= In summary. Using your pc so they don't have to use their own.




This process is referred to as "mining" as an analogy to gold mining because it is also a temporary mechanism used to issue new bitcoins.

- Yes. Mining is typically a temporary mechanism to obtain a finite resource.

Unlike gold mining, however, Bitcoin mining provides a reward....

- Mining offers rewards.

in exchange for useful services required to operate a secure payment network.

- Ok. So they are saying that miners are part of a secure payment network.

Mining will still be required after the last bitcoin is issued.

- Obviously, they will still have stuff to do.


= In summary. Despite bitcoins be an intangible resource they are finite???????

They want you to mine for no return once they decide not to imagine any more new bitcoins.



I still maintain the Emperors got no clothes on.

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  • 4 weeks later...

My humble stocks of bitcoin and litecoin are up over 15% since this thread begun. If I sell up now I can use my profits to buy a Big Mac and maybe a coffee from the Mac Cafe... :)

 

oops - make that 9%. I have to downgrade to a cheeseburger happy meal :(

Edited by Pete
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up to 25% now - I am upgrading to a grill'd burger and maybe even a ginger beer and fries. Why is it rising? Are the Greeks investing in Cyber currency ahead of the new Hellenic, post-Euro currency..?! :)

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How do you convert your bit coins to real money? Do they charge brokerage on the exchange? Who sets the exchange rates?

I use btcmarkets.net that are an Aussie exchange that supposedly does things in accordance with our laws, taxes, GST etc

You open an account and put some money in to trade. No minimum marketable parcels, I think you can buy with very small amounts (eg $50 pr less) whereas on the ASX I think you have to trade over $500.

They keep the holding for you but if you want you can create your own wallet and transfer from your btc account to your wallet. I have not done this yet as I need to learn a bit more about what wallets are and how you safeguard them etc. I might even do a bit of mining once this is sorted - whilst the days of individuals making money out of it are long gone I want to learn about it.

Off the top of my head I'm not sure what the brokerage mechanism is but it is pretty small - for a $50 transaction it is about $0.50 and for a $100 transaction it was around $0.90.

Get on board - have some fun - you'll learn about cyber currency and markets and you might even make some money while you are at it.

Edited by Pete
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

15%..?! Far canal! I'd bet get some of those! :)

 

I bought at 2:50...

Now trading at $5.21 sell and buy at $5.51 - I wish I had've dropped a bit more than my meager $50 on it LOL

 

I also bought bitcoin (or at least a part of one :)) at $306.16 now trading around $332. I think I will retire on this and become a a virtual currency trader... :)

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uptake of Bitcoin has quadrupled in Greece recently apparently.

 

I'm not surprised - I am in Greece at the moment and all the banks have police out the front and the lines at the ATMs are pretty long. People are worried that their Euro deposits will end up in drachma or some such so there is a big run on the banks. Arguably a case in favour of an international cyber currency?

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I bought at 2:50...

Now trading at $5.21 sell and buy at $5.51 - I wish I had've dropped a bit more than my meager $50 on it LOL

 

I also bought bitcoin (or at least a part of one :)) at $306.16 now trading around $332. I think I will retire on this and become a a virtual currency trader... :)

 

litecoin now at $6.50/$6.79 Yowsers!!

bitcoin now at $369/$365!

I wish I had've put some real coin on this. Anyone know gamblers' anonymous helpline? I think I'm gonna need it... :)

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  • 2 years later...
On 7/6/2015 at 4:08 PM, Pete said:

 

litecoin now at $6.50/$6.79 Yowsers!!

bitcoin now at $369/$365!

I wish I had've put some real coin on this. Anyone know gamblers' anonymous helpline? I think I'm gonna need it... :)

Bitcoin now trading at $4,420 AUD. If you had've bought back then and held them (I didn't :( ) you would have made a 1,000 % return on your investment!!! (But I did purchase a small amount a month ago at 3,500 :) )

I wonder if the "bitcoin accepted only"  in the ransomware virus transactions have made all the difference! :) 

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I bought 1 x Ethereum coin just to see what the go is. Might get a few more.

It might be a bit like the old gold rush days where the folk that got richest were those that sold the picks and shovels.

You'd be making a mint selling processors, computers, power, bandwidth, etc to the coin miners at the moment.

 

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1 hour ago, Riddos said:

I bought 1 x Ethereum coin just to see what the go is. Might get a few more.

It might be a bit like the old gold rush days where the folk that got richest were those that sold the picks and shovels.

You'd be making a mint selling processors, computers, power, bandwidth, etc to the coin miners at the moment.

 

I bought a couple of hundred dollars worth of Etherium a while back at $370 but it dropped like a stone and stayed there for a while - only now has put be back in the black at $410 - would have been better putting it into bitcoin.  Etherium hasn't got the volatility of bitcoin but there are some good reasons why demand for it may ultimately surpass it.

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I spend a lot of time talking about this for work, in fact I've just been confirmed to speak at a Blockchain conference in Sydney in a couple of months...

To answer the original question, BitCoin mining doesn't pay these days unless you have a massive data centre and specialist hardware that is because "solving" each cryptographic problem becomes harder as more of them are solved.

As to whether it's here to stay... well, it's been around for 9 years already and doesn't look like it's going anywhere, there are an increasing number of crypto currencies available too so I reckon they won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

To answer the "selling people something which is nothing" point... that's all currencies. Currency only has value because people say it does. Take gold for instance. Gold has some value as a conducting metal but it is priced and traded for a much higher value than that. The reason it can have value is because there is a finite amount of it and it requires an expenditure of effort in order to procure it in the first place. That is exactly what BitCoin is... there is a finite amount of it and it costs electricity in order to procure it in the first place.

Why do we need / want cryptocurrencies? Firstly it is a currency that is completely outside the control of a central bank. Governments deliberately inflate their currencies (or allow their currencies to inflate) at around 2% a year. That's because by doing so they reduce the value of their debt by that amount each year (basically free money). That doesn't happen with Bitcoin (it fluctuates against other currencies but does not inflate in the same way). The second reason is anonymity. It's a way to pay electronically without anybody knowing who you are. A brief look on the dark net shows how popular it is to buy anything from guns to girls. I'm not saying that's a good thing but it is a thing!

To me the more exciting thing is Blockchain and Distributed Ledgers more generally (these are the underlying technologies that Bitcoin and other crypto currencies rely on). In themselves they're not that exciting, essentially it allows two parties to both have a version of a database and be absolutely certain that it is the same database and always has been the same database. Sounds dull but it is already changing the way that large financial institutions "clear" between each other and has a lot of applications in logistics and ID of people and objects (like diamonds).

Sorry for the mammoth essay!

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On 18/06/2015 at 9:57 AM, Mike Honcho said:

How do you convert your bit coins to real money? Do they charge brokerage on the exchange? Who sets the exchange rates?

Yes they do charge brokerage and the answer to the last question is nobody and everybody... in the same way that currencies are set it's done by a market bid and acceptance model.

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