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I have a mate who was stupid enough to put his hand up to be part of a 200 KM TTT. Teams of 5 and time stops as the last man crosses the line.

 

Now this slightly fat bloke who is pretty unfit doesn't want to let down the team of very strong cyclists.

 

Since this bloke has never drafted in his life on a tt bike what kind of % of Ftp would said bloke be looking at riding when on the front for a couple minutes at a time?

 

The course is 200 km pretty flat point to point in Thailand.

 

I'll pass this advice to him next time I see him in Walking Street.

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Ratty the guy needs to do some motorpacing work before the event. 4 hours behind the moto at about 48-50kph each time.

It doesn't matter what numbers we think he should be pulling, if the boys are doing 49kph on race day then he needs to do his turn at 49kph too.

They should be riding single file which means that if each guy does a minute each on the front then he has a 4 minute rest before he hits the wind. If he's feeling okay he does his minute. If he's struggling he does 10 seconds and swings off and goes to the back. Even short turns will help the group. Strong riders do longer turns. Weaker riders do shorter turns. Stronger riders do not go faster as they will just blow the others up.

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Ratty the guy needs to do some motorpacing work before the event. 4 hours behind the moto at about 48-50kph each time.

It doesn't matter what numbers we think he should be pulling, if the boys are doing 49kph on race day then he needs to do his turn at 49kph too.

They should be riding single file which means that if each guy does a minute each on the front then he has a 4 minute rest before he hits the wind. If he's feeling okay he does his minute. If he's struggling he does 10 seconds and swings off and goes to the back. Even short turns will help the group. Strong riders do longer turns. Weaker riders do shorter turns. Stronger riders do not go faster as they will just blow the others up.

Thanks for that some good advice there. Not sure about holding 49kph for 200ks though!

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Depending on heat and all of those type of things. if you think you will average 40kms an hour and you were all of similar ability. I would say turns of around 2/3 minutes at FTP with the draft effect the rest of the team would be doing about 80% of FTP.

 

This would result in an overall IF of around .85 which is about as good as you could hope for over 5 hours.

 

From an energy point of view this would burn through around 3500 kcals from glycogen. So if you can take down 300-350 kcals an hour you should have enough energy.

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From an energy point of view this would burn through around 3500 kcals from glycogen. So if you can take down 300-350 kcals an hour you should have enough energy.

Meh. That sort of calucation is only for the carb-addicted athletes/junkies.

 

Especially as this is a TT with no surging the fat adapated athletes will use even less glycogen and Calories in v calories out "formulas" becomes as irrelevant as they should be in a non-athletic life lived without refined carbs.

 

Last Saturday morning, I did a 125km ride in 3.30 moving time/4 hour total ride time; mostly with my nose in the wind, without one single calorie before or during the ride. Finished pretty strong too. Fat adaption will do that.

 

To be fair though if someone is overweight it is a fait accompli that they are carb addicted.

 

The bacon-addicted amongst us are fully ripped bro.

Edited by niseko
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Haha, no, but I did have a flat actually! And my spare tube failed and needed help from a mate. I've got to look where I'm going and not at the stem, I'm hitting way too many little rocks.

 

Got another one Sunday too, by the same mechanism. Even using the Conti 4000s too so no excuse there, like on that fateful day in Busso when I had Bontrager aero wing with no flat protection.

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Thanks for that some good advice there. Not sure about holding 49kph for 200ks though!

have you ever sat behind a bike at that speed?

 

Give it a crack, it will change your views

 

DD you are doing an awesome job, with the guys and motopacing down that way, wish I had access to that up here.....keep it up.

 

fluro

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have you ever sat behind a bike at that speed?

 

Give it a crack, it will change your views

 

DD you are doing an awesome job, with the guys and motopacing down that way, wish I had access to that up here.....keep it up.

 

fluro

Cheers Fluro ...I'm taking Oyto out tomorrow morning. Yeah the boys are keeping me busy, I have 3 NRS guys hitting me up a fair bit. Keeps me out of trouble.

 

The 49kph was just a figure I plucked out of the air, the point being if the speed is 40 everyone does 40. If they are doing 50, well you can't do 48 can you? So dont worry about % of FTP, just HOLD THE WHEEL. If you are struggling, you just do a real short turn at the front - at the same speed everyone else is doing.

No reason why reasonably fit guys cant be doing north of 45kph when 4 of them are sitting in a draft. The front guy is working hard but only for a short time.

Motorpacing is a good simulation as you are behind the moto in a big gear doing somewhere between 44 and 50kph. You get some good draft at times but in cross winds you have to work harder like you would in a TTT.

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Cheers Fluro ...I'm taking Oyto out tomorrow morning. Yeah the boys are keeping me busy, I have 3 NRS guys hitting me up a fair bit. Keeps me out of trouble.

 

The 49kph was just a figure I plucked out of the air, the point being if the speed is 40 everyone does 40. If they are doing 50, well you can't do 48 can you? So dont worry about % of FTP, just HOLD THE WHEEL. If you are struggling, you just do a real short turn at the front - at the same speed everyone else is doing.

No reason why reasonably fit guys cant be doing north of 45kph when 4 of them are sitting in a draft. The front guy is working hard but only for a short time.

Motorpacing is a good simulation as you are behind the moto in a big gear doing somewhere between 44 and 50kph. You get some good draft at times but in cross winds you have to work harder like you would in a TTT.

G'day DD,

Good to see you working with Oyto, ;-). Just ****ing hold the wheel is the key with motopacing, like you said....It all comes down to what they can do at speeds they are not familiar with when they aren't tucked into your wheel. It bloody sucks trying to pull back into a paceline when you have done your turn at 49kph, but, it should, it's how you get guys to lift. Those guys could be triathletes, cyclists, it doesn't really matter, it's about execution, mental strength and discipline, that teaches people to work the right way when the time is right...

 

I got slammed in the do I need to do bricks thread........You do when the time is right....it needs to be individualised, personalised to when the athlete needs to be the doing the workout.

 

Are you sending anyone down to tour of bright?

 

 

Fluro

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have you ever sat behind a bike at that speed?

 

Give it a crack, it will change your views

 

 

 

Thanks mate. Funnily enough I have spent my fair share of time in the saddle over the past 10 years. Including sitting on a wheel and having my nose in the wind at around 50kph on the flat (the latter not for many minutes, but a few when you combine them all.... maybe 60?).

 

I'm not sure if you got my point though. Which was that it's unlikely that a 200km TT in Thailand will be done at 49kph by anyone.

 

DD has added some great insight and value to the thread in an area he no doubt has more expertise than most of us (and certainly me and maybe you?) and has clarified it was just a random number.

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DD has added some great insight and value to the thread in an area he no doubt has more expertise than most of us (and certainly me and maybe you?) and has clarified it was just a random number.

DD has a bucket load of more experience then me and it gets results with his sons. When he posts, I learn, and a lot.

 

fluro

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DD has a bucket load of more experience then me and it gets results with his sons. When he posts, I learn, and a lot.

 

fluro

You're very kind mate. There is a hell of a lot of stuff I know nothing about, don't worry. For instance I know nothing about training with a powermeter. I have downplayed powermeters in many threads but taking Oyto out behind the moto yesterday, I must say that in the hands of someone who knows how to use one, the results are remarkable. He was going better than the NRS guys I have been working with.

I also know nothing about long course triathlon so I can't help you out on the bricks thread where you are copping a pasting. I suspect the answer may be somewhere in the middle ground between the corners all the protagonists have backed themselves into.

Not doing ToB this year, Blair wants to get some more experience on the track side of things so we are doing some track work at the moment. Sam (my nephew) came 5th or 6th In B last year but hasnt been doing much training so probably will pass it up as well.

PSThey dont actually listen to what i say :)

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Cheers Fluro ...I'm taking Oyto out tomorrow morning. Yeah the boys are keeping me busy, I have 3 NRS guys hitting me up a fair bit. Keeps me out of trouble.

 

The 49kph was just a figure I plucked out of the air, the point being if the speed is 40 everyone does 40. If they are doing 50, well you can't do 48 can you? So dont worry about % of FTP, just HOLD THE WHEEL. If you are struggling, you just do a real short turn at the front - at the same speed everyone else is doing.

No reason why reasonably fit guys cant be doing north of 45kph when 4 of them are sitting in a draft. The front guy is working hard but only for a short time.

Motorpacing is a good simulation as you are behind the moto in a big gear doing somewhere between 44 and 50kph. You get some good draft at times but in cross winds you have to work harder like you would in a TTT.

 

Moto work is awesome training for this sort of stuff, and especially for individuals when you don't have much chance to ride race simulations with your team mates.

 

One thing I'd add is that if it's a TEAM TT and the result depends on the time the 5th rider crosses the finish line, then the team has a responsibility to manage its pacing such that it attains the overall highest team speed. No point blowing your 5th rider out of the water by riding XX km/h if the 5th rider won't make it even if they are sitting on and never take a turn.

 

This is where training as a team is so valuable because you not only learn what's physically possible for each team member and can gain some idea of the optimal workload share, but you also recognise the importance of communication - this is the secret sauce to optimising your team's speed. As the team gets better and better at working together, the communication can become more subtle but if you are not talking with each other and being clear about pacing and how each are going, or other skill/execution factors, then cracks will appear. Cracks widen very quickly when someone is under pressure.

 

As a general ROT (there are exceptions of course), you modify the length of rider's turns on the front based on their relative strength/weakness in the team, rather than the speed of a rider's turn on the front. If you are a fitter rider, then take longer turns, not faster ones. If you are a weaker rider, then take shorter turns not slower ones. Accelerations are very costly metabolically so keeping things smooth is really important. This applies to short duration team pursuits as much as it does to team based RAAM events. If an acceleration is required, then the pace change should be subtle and done gradually.

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You're very kind mate. There is a hell of a lot of stuff I know nothing about, don't worry. For instance I know nothing about training with a powermeter. I have downplayed powermeters in many threads but taking Oyto out behind the moto yesterday, I must say that in the hands of someone who knows how to use one, the results are remarkable. He was going better than the NRS guys I have been working with.

I also know nothing about long course triathlon so I can't help you out on the bricks thread where you are copping a pasting. I suspect the answer may be somewhere in the middle ground between the corners all the protagonists have backed themselves into.

Not doing ToB this year, Blair wants to get some more experience on the track side of things so we are doing some track work at the moment. Sam (my nephew) came 5th or 6th In B last year but hasnt been doing much training so probably will pass it up as well.

PSThey dont actually listen to what i say :)

G'day DD,

 

It been great working with Oyto, lots of raw talent there, for an old guy, ;-). He just didn't know what to look for with his numbers and once we broke it down, we could start focusing on what he needs to do for States. I haven't had enough time with him yet, but he is starting to get some good results in training and is really improving his repeatability. The back end of his sessions are producing good numbers now.

 

fluro

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