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Ironman - 10 hours


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1. Youve already spent your bullets and mental energy qualifying

2. You have to train through winter

3. The course every part of it is hard- the swim takes more out of people as its a lot rougher and no wetsuit, bike has insane winds and run has heat like youve never experienced

4 The level of comp there is insane and it prompts you to go too hard

5 Its hard

6 Its hot beyond belief. Nutrition/hydration mistakes are WAY more costly

7 The course is extremely hard - did I say that before?

8 The wind completely undoes a lot of people - they just give up or get scared

9 Its hard

 

 

That's a pretty good summary of the Hawaii Ironman - I think that's why I like it - it tests you :scared:

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@coach my advice would be you have the ability to complete Port ironman in a respectable time (for old, broken down, 'kept' husband and father who use to race ok). But racing Port IM is another thing

Hope you're sitting back with a beer enjoying this Mick. Personally though, I prefer 2 girls fighting over me.

red rag >>>>>>>> bull

i give plenty away. no secrets here

 

dunno what time i'm capablle of. will sort that out with about 6 weeks to go once some specific training is done. yes i've raced an ironman before at the pointy end. means nothing 20 years later.

 

legs are fine at the moment. in fact i'm racking up very consistent running weeks and moving along the ground as well as any time in the past 6 years. the reason i stopped ironman is because i got run over by a car the year after my first ironman and fractured c6 and c7, clavicle, wrist, and skull. neck pain has persisted ever since. i was a codeine addict for 18 months after until an intervention by my family. it was then i started swimming more which i found relieved the pain, and got me off the painkillers. so, will see how the neck holds up on long rides over 5 hours

 

jimmyc has given me plenty to think about in terms of preparation and it will be about getting fit to do the last 10 weeks of prep. minimalist running and optimum swim/bike fitness. I'll hit up up Matt Koorey regularly and probably pick AP's brains along the way. There is plenty to learn.

 

Biggest problem in terms of going well is changing my energy system. i do glycogen very well. haven't run longer than 10 k in many years. i did a 4 hour ride with mick fox, jabba, and crowie a couple of years ago and felt strong all the way but don't ride more than 50 minutes normally. so the fat burning thing will be the challenge and reintroducing the body to enduring. swim training won't change one iota

 

not sure about a race plan. have no ****ing idea really. i am instinctual as a racer so will see what happens.

swim: 50.30

bike: 4.53

run: 3.26

Add a few minutes for both transitions.. Voila there's your time Coach... 9.14

I think you are capable of running quicker but your body might not allow you to do the necessary miles to do so.

The carrot of Kona will be dangling in front of you the day after with a time like that..

Disclaimer: i don't know you personally but purely going on seeing you race and reading transitions.

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swim: 50.30

bike: 4.53

run: 3.26

Add a few minutes for both transitions.. Voila there's your time Coach... 9.14

I think you are capable of running quicker but your body might not allow you to do the necessary miles to do so.

The carrot of Kona will be dangling in front of you the day after with a time like that..

Disclaimer: i don't know you personally but purely going on seeing you race and reading transitions.

No offence to coach@, but as an old fart (like the rest of us) I say 5:00 for the bike and 3:30+ for the run, coming in around 9:30. And that's if he has no issues in the lead-up and goes there to "race", which I couldn't imagine him not doing. My thoughts are that will still give him the carrot the next day, but less incentive to take it up.

 

disclaimer - I'd love to see you prove me wrong & go 9:14, or better.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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No offence to coach@, but as an old fart (like the rest of us) I say 5:00 for the bike and 3:30+ for the run, coming in around 9:30. And that's if he has no issues in the lead-up and goes there to "race", which I couldn't imagine him not doing. My thoughts are that will still give him the carrot the next day, but less incentive to take it up.

 

disclaimer - I'd love to see you prove me wrong & go 9:14, or better.

He regularly runs 18 low in a sprint race on not much run training. 3.30 is only 5 minute km's, his super bike fitness will allow him to run sub 3.30 in my opinion. His bike is phenomenal, sub 5 hours for sure with 10 weeks of specific training. He will only need to add a few 4-5 hour rides to what he is already doing in that 10 week block.

Really enjoying being an armchair expert about someone i've never met!

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Mate completely different systems that need to be trained. What he is capable of will not be seen in less than 12 months but when and if he decides to do another Ironman.

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I think he's going to struggle to get to the start line - the man is a gifted athlete - no doubt

 

Comebacks are very hard in Ironman - especially 20yrs later - I've seen a lot of guys who have done well (low 9.XX) go away and take on more responsibilities, then come back ten years later and really struggle to stay uninjured - I think it's because in their mind they're still gifted athletes

 

They don't learn the "go a little easier" - "make body maintenance your priority" - "take supplements, you need them more as you get older" - type lessons at the same rate the guys who have continued to compete in these events as they have aged

 

It's very hard for a naturally gifted athlete to train for long periods of time at an easy pace - and then stick at this as they become fit :shy:

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as I've told Mick before he is hardwired for glycogen use. Even body composition wise he isn't set up for fat burning. It will take time to switch it over (many good middle distance types cant ever make the switch)

 

despite this I would think he could race more conservatively and still post a dam good time <9.20 ie ride ridiculous easy and not with the first age groupers/back of the pros. With his swim ability he could still comfortably get off the bike well under 6hrs which then leaves him with a run well within his capabilities

 

if he tries to race his mates Chappo etc and mimic their training it will be a trip out onto the edge of the razor blade..........I think AP is right about that one.......and the pressure too from all the watchers on /putting it all in for one go etc

 

it might work but chances are there will be a horrible explosion or injury.........its hard to accept that even though he's a yoyo trainer Chapman has a different body type and has put more " going long" campaigns together than Mick. Mick was always leaning towards the swim/bike in the longer distances- harder for these slightly bigger guys to deal with the longer run if those tendons havent got the 10yrs+ of steady conditioning- easier for people like Champman who are naturally slighter (when off the beers)

 

its a risk reward scenario- how certain does he want to be in getting something "decent" on the board the first time round

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as I've told Mick before he is hardwired for glycogen use. Even body composition wise he isn't set up for fat burning. It will take time to switch it over (many good middle distance types cant ever make the switch)

 

I don't think it's that hard to make the switch. Just stop eating refined carbs almost cold turkey for a while and do long rides with no calories for the first 60 minutes and push it out to 90mins +.

 

Bob Seebohar reckons almost everyone can make the change in two weeks. Might be interesting to hook Coach@ up to a metabolic cart to really see where he is pulling his fuel from.

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From his site

 

 

Bob Seebohar, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS is an outside the box sport dietitian who challenges conventional wisdom and always questions the "why" behind traditional sports nutrition strategies. Throughout his career, he has been honored to work with extremely talented athletes ranging from youth to Olympians. He developed the concepts Nutrition Periodization and Metabolic Efficiency, both of which are employed by athletes to help them perform at optimal levels.

 

Bob is also a USA Triathlon Certified Level III and Youth/Junior Coach and inspires adults and youth to achieve their personal bests in life and sport. He is the proud founder of Kids that TRI, which is a 501c3 non-profit organization that inspires youth to be more physically active through triathlon. He also coaches side by side with Susan Williams, 2004 Olympic Triathlon Bronze Medalist, at Elite Multisport Coaching in Littleton, Colorado.

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Niseko with the greatest of respect the stats on many very well credentialled athletes trying it supports it being very hard.

 

In short Bob may know a lot but he does not know shit about this topic in PRACTICE

 

even hooking someone to a cart tells you an incomplete picture of how well a guy will process fuel 5hrs + into an IM

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will be an interesting experiment either way.

 

i suspect i can do the fat burning thing pretty well. was always one of the strongest in long rides and runs when i did them with the heavy hitters. two of my sisters are marathon swimmers and susie has set and broken epic swimming marathon records over many many hours. what i'm saying is the physiology is probably there genetically which is why i have been lean my whole life. i burn fat. it's not like i don't eat it. probably need to eat more of it though

 

the key will be building distance and learning about fuelling. so, long rides/runs/bricks when i can leading into the final weeks which will be essentially race practice.

 

the inhibitor mainly will be 'life' :)

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Bob Seebohar, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS

 

What do all those letters stand for :scared: I can't work any of them out - it wouldn't be multiple sclerosis - race director - citizens supporting special diets - Colonel Sanders cooking specialist :shy:

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will be an interesting experiment either way.

 

i suspect i can do the fat burning thing pretty well. was always one of the strongest in long rides and runs when i did them with the heavy hitters. two of my sisters are marathon swimmers and susie has set and broken epic swimming marathon records over many many hours. what i'm saying is the physiology is probably there genetically which is why i have been lean my whole life. i burn fat. it's not like i don't eat it. probably need to eat more of it though

 

the key will be building distance and learning about fuelling. so, long rides/runs/bricks when i can leading into the final weeks which will be essentially race practice.

 

the inhibitor mainly will be 'life' :)

yeah good points - as you say one doesnt know until you try it all out. and yes "life" is the biggest challenge :-)

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as I've told Mick before he is hardwired for glycogen use. Even body composition wise he isn't set up for fat burning. It will take time to switch it over (many good middle distance types cant ever make the switch)

 

despite this I would think he could race more conservatively and still post a dam good time <9.20 ie ride ridiculous easy and not with the first age groupers/back of the pros. With his swim ability he could still comfortably get off the bike well under 6hrs which then leaves him with a run well within his capabilities

 

if he tries to race his mates Chappo etc and mimic their training it will be a trip out onto the edge of the razor blade..........I think AP is right about that one.......and the pressure too from all the watchers on /putting it all in for one go etc

 

it might work but chances are there will be a horrible explosion or injury.........its hard to accept that even though he's a yoyo trainer Chapman has a different body type and has put more " going long" campaigns together than Mick. Mick was always leaning towards the swim/bike in the longer distances- harder for these slightly bigger guys to deal with the longer run if those tendons havent got the 10yrs+ of steady conditioning- easier for people like Champman who are naturally slighter (when off the beers)

 

its a risk reward scenario- how certain does he want to be in getting something "decent" on the board the first time round

Nope.....Seriously Jimmy WTF....

 

Niseko will support me here. When I was living living in Tokyo and hooking up occasionally, with Niseko we had a guy by the name of Olaf, who was 400m runner. In 2010 (approx) he decided to do triathlon's for the first time. 3 years later he is winning his age group in IM's in the 40-44 age group. Won Melbourne last year.

 

He is off to Hawaii this year and I have my money on him winning his age group there too....Just a few weeks ago he did a 180km race sim ride in 4:40 with a HR of 123bpm.

 

People like Olaf and Coach are unique, they have the ability to do well, why....because no matter what they do, they will always do well. They are hard wired that way, which starts at a very young age.

 

What AP is saying, is just confusing and defies logic....capping your HR at XXX, seriously, basic knowledge of physiology straight at the window.

 

These guys won't get injured.....years of experience have kept them at the top of the game in their chosen field for reason.

 

If coach was to look into what it was that Olaf has done to get to where he will be in Hawaii, you'll soon realise, much of what is being suggested in this thread is irrelevant.....His results don't lie.

 

fluro

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will be an interesting experiment either way.

 

i suspect i can do the fat burning thing pretty well. was always one of the strongest in long rides and runs when i did them with the heavy hitters. two of my sisters are marathon swimmers and susie has set and broken epic swimming marathon records over many many hours. what i'm saying is the physiology is probably there genetically which is why i have been lean my whole life. i burn fat. it's not like i don't eat it. probably need to eat more of it though

 

the key will be building distance and learning about fuelling. so, long rides/runs/bricks when i can leading into the final weeks which will be essentially race practice.

 

the inhibitor mainly will be 'life' :)

G'day Coach,

 

if you have spent years developing your ability to race sprints, then what you are doing is developing your ability to utilise glycogen as a primary fuel source. Therefore the minute you jump on bike and put on pair of runners, your body shunts blood straight to the working muscles, really efficiently. So where does that blood come from?.......Your digestive system, why, because, at rest 24% of your blood volume is at your digestive system. So if it doesn't need to fuel the muscle, with glycogen, then the blood will leave the digestive system and fuel the muscle, and efficiently.

 

The biggest limiter with doing an IM will be you running out of fuel, NOT fitness, your body has been trained to maximise blood at the working muscle, therefore to draw that blood away from the working muscle, will slow you down. This will be something you'll struggle with once you realise you have to take in XXX calories on your rides and and runs.....People often say they feel really "flat" on their long runs and rides, I get this one all the time.

 

In summary, Coach, your biggest limiter in an IM is that your won't run out of fitness on the day, you'll run out of your ability to keep fuelling your fitness. Olaf worked that one out really early on and is why he is able to do so well, in such a short period of time (2-3years)....The guy is in his 40's too.

 

fluro

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If coach was to look into what it was that Olaf has done to get to where he will be in Hawaii, you'll soon realise, much of what is being suggested in this thread is irrelevant.....His results don't lie.

 

fluro

Well 'cept that one in Taiwan 70.3 2011 when the poor fella got a bit dizzy at the 18 mark on the run and took a left down the finishing shute instead of doing the 1.5km out and back on the run.

 

That one is still in the reord books and is not exactly the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

I would not be putting my cash on him in the 40-44.

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Well 'cept that one in Taiwan 70.3 2011 when the poor fella got a bit dizzy at the 18 mark on the run and took a left down the finishing shute instead of doing the 1.5km out and back on the run.

 

That one is still in the reord books and is not exactly the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

I would not be putting my cash on him in the 40-44.

Really?

 

The guy has had a great lead up into hawaii, yes, 40-44 is competitive, but would love to see him go the sub 9 there

 

fluro

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There are always exceptions but if you want to start listing examples of elite guys who failed at exactly this ill outnumber you 5:1 with real examples

You always will Jimmy....which is precisely why we need to look at people like Coach, Olaf, etc...and think out of the box, to cater for those sorts of athletes.

 

Differentiation

 

fluro

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For a start Fluoro there is a full length swim in Hawaii and non wetsuit not the half distance thing that played to his strengths in Melbourne

Yeah and Olaf was pissed about that....It denied him achieving a legit sub 9....You're barking up the wrong tree

 

fluro

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Getting a bit of course here but Jimmy's right Fluro. Olaf is a poor swimmer. Melb being shortened with lots of course cutting definitely

played to his strengths.

But , do you think Olaf cared about that?

 

Like I said, and like Olaf said, it cost him a legit sub 9 at Melbourne

 

fluro

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Yes we will see different perspectives and statistical outliers are what keeps life interesting :-)

Not really Jimmy, the guys at that end of the field have more commonalities then we can even comprehend.

 

That is what separates us from them.

 

Howvever, if you tap into it as a coach, what you learn is priceless, you need to dig deep though.....

 

fluro

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Calves of cheese would be his weakness. Metabolically, physiologically, aerobically, glycologically, paleologically, and frikkin psychologically the bloke is ready. Whether the gastroc and soleus can hold together is the burning question as the Doctor runs long.

 

Oh and he won't waste energy waving at people.

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Calves of cheese would be his weakness. Metabolically, physiologically, aerobically, glycologically, paleologically, and frikkin psychologically the bloke is ready. Whether the gastroc and soleus can hold together is the burning question as the Doctor runs long.

 

Oh and he won't waste energy waving at people.

lol

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Calves of cheese would be his weakness. Metabolically, physiologically, aerobically, glycologically, paleologically, and frikkin psychologically the bloke is ready. Whether the gastroc and soleus can hold together is the burning question as the Doctor runs long.

 

Oh and he won't waste energy waving at people.

LOL

metabolically he will struggle....it takes time to convert

Physiologically he will be fine

Glycologically, will depend on his diet

paleologically, yeah I support Niseko here

pyschologically.....I reckon he might struggle, pacing a 8-10hr event is tough to get right

 

fluro

Edited by fluro2au
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I think coach@ is also under 92.5k.

 

Fluro, Neisko, .... Coach@ is quick for old bloke, fascinated to get your views re him cruising and energy use. Ie, instead of him going at 100% of his ironman pace, he goes at 90% of it, minimising the risk or bonking and lessening the stress on his calves.

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seriously the bloke hasn't had a week off since the 1970's. The only thing that will stop him going sub 10 is his musculoskeletal system. He will chug coke, eat whatever shit he likes, froth at the mouth, acknowledge no-one and TOSS the PIS back to Vaucluse.

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That's without question- it was about what will happen if he gets lured into trying to go 100% of his potential

 

I think even 920 will be well below his cruising pace but he'll have to practice self restraint

 

Getting to the start line will be the hardest part

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That's without question- it was about what will happen if he gets lured into trying to go 100% of his potential

I think even 920 will be well below his cruising pace but he'll have to practice self restraint

Getting to the start line will be the hardest part

Mick ain't dumb enough to get lured into anything.... Biggest issue is getting there as you say, and I'd like to think if the goal is a spot, he'd throw that dice slightly under done as he's a better athlete than most.

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in terms of injury. im pretty good at backing off when there is a strain coming on. can't stop the pings in the calves that happen from time to time but i've found an optimal routine and have been healthy for a while now.

 

i've done 103 races in the past 6 years mostly sprint, club and OD. i know how to race and prepare. the ironman will be about energy conservation and steady state.

 

the swim will probably be ok and should come out with the first few. the bike is my strength so staying even through the first hilly section and settling into a rythmn will be key. don't really know what time i'm capable of but that will become more evident as the training progresses.

 

in saying all that - in the race i'd be looking at doing most of the work in the swim and bike and conserving energy there, as well as picking the right race partners.

we have a number of heavy hitters who do some great 100-140k tts in the final weeks with race nutrition and 12 metre rule. They will be key to learning about pacing and energy levels. i'll leave the longer running to the very end of the prep and just tick over the weekly mileage and stay healthy.

 

probably aim to hit the run in as fresh as condition as possible and then just moving along the ground as well as i can for as long as i can. most of my training is at 5 minute ks with threshold runs at 3.30-3.45. 5 minute ks would be the target at the start and see how we go.

 

not sure about all this enery physiology stuff but i guess adaption works on all levels and systems in the human body

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In between a lot of crap there is some really good stuff in here.... just sayin' ...

Having not done an IM for 23 years, but having just done a half and down for another soon... there is plenty to think about

(hopefully I won't think about it too much and go back to living a life with no Ironman in it.. we will see.... never say never I suppose... )

 

Good luck to you Coach@, hope the body holds and life offers the time needed. The big question is though, what colour tat you going to get :) (lol ... just adding to the crap bits in the thread!)

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But I'm terrible at tennis! The guys on the tennis forum told me to come here. Now what?

But you still hang around that particular guy and he is making you soft! (his name might be Scott ..once upon a time that counted but not no more :).

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