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O'Grady Retires


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Maybe it makes me a cheat or a bad person but it was just accepted back then, it is what you did. Unless you were there it is hard to understand.

I dont think anyone on here doesn't understand that, we all know that the ones that didn't 'get with the program' are the riders who were sent home, who supposedly weren't good enough, who didn't want it bad enough, who's names we will never know. But surely that doesn't mean we have to keep perpetuating that culture by not trying to eradicate the drug problem, I dont think the athletes are necessarily the most culpbable parties in this, but when someone gets caught, you cant just stand by and let it slide, by saying that everyone is on it.The more athletes that get caught, the less accepting the culture will be of PED taking, hopefully this will flow on to the Team Managers so that eventually the sport will be free from systematic cheating (I undertand you will always have cheating on some level). Personally I don't think is happening as it is to easy for the athletes to be hung out to dry, saving the spotlight from being shone onto those who run the sport.

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No, just rambling nonsense.   I don't think anyone has claimed that O'Grady or Zabel aren't 'hard men', or that there aren't cheats in other sports and other professions.   The only reason Stuey,

You know, its interesting, I see similarities in the professional peloton to the organisation I joined in the mid 80s.   As history has shown the organisation was entrenched with corruption at every

we all have choices trek. of course he had a choice. just like the bloke who chooses to walk out on his family because he's bored, or it gets a bit hard - granted some choices are very difficult but t

I dont think anyone on here doesn't understand that, we all know that the ones that didn't 'get with the program' are the riders who were sent home, who supposedly weren't good enough, who didn't want it bad enough, who's names we will never know. But surely that doesn't mean we have to keep perpetuating that culture by not trying to eradicate the drug problem, I dont think the athletes are necessarily the most culpbable parties in this, but when someone gets caught, you cant just stand by and let it slide, by saying that everyone is on it.The more athletes that get caught, the less accepting the culture will be of PED taking, hopefully this will flow on to the Team Managers so that eventually the sport will be free from systematic cheating (I undertand you will always have cheating on some level). Personally I don't think is happening as it is to easy for the athletes to be hung out to dry, saving the spotlight from being shone onto those who run the sport.

 

No one is saying don't clean up the sport, most are just saying in a time when doping was endemic you can't judge using today's standards. It's like judging 17th century folk by today's standards because they owned slaves. You really have to attempt to use the standards of the day.

 

The fact that Stuey doped for 2 weeks in 1998 is not great, and my own cynicism finds it hard to believe the period wasn't a whole lot longer, but I can't judge him too harshly knowing how things were. That doesn't mean I don't want the best testing and measures used today to detect and sanction those that do decide to dope.

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Researchers say foolproof drug-testing in sport would be prohibitively costly.

They estimate it would cost Australia $25,000 or more annually for each athlete.

A University of Adelaide study looked at global data on positive doping results across 93 sports.

It found the chance of an athlete being caught after a single test was as low as 3 per cent.

Anatomy professor Maciej Henneberg said there were many reasons the current testing regime was unreliable.

"The window of detection, when the substance is active in the body, is short, it's sometimes 12 hours, sometimes 48 hours," he said.

"Tests are run several times a year, therefore the probability of a test, even a completely random test will happen when the person is within the window, is low."

He said it was surprising current detection rates were not higher.

 

"Given the image and the promotion that anti-doping agencies have in the international community it does come as somewhat of a surprise that more athletes aren't being detected," he said.

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No one is saying don't clean up the sport, most are just saying in a time when doping was endemic you can't judge using today's standards. It's like judging 17th century folk by today's standards because they owned slaves. You really have to attempt to use the standards of the day.

 

Well maybe not the same, as it was crystal clear that doping was illegal whereas slaving wasnt illegal in parts of the 17th/18th century.

I'm feeling less and less sympathy for the confessing dopers. Did they really think that they could cheat and escape without any consequences . Maybe they could justifiy it to themselves by the erroneous assumption that everyone was cheating (and they werent) , but they were getting paid big time by sponsors (and in effect the general public).

Stuie has ended up richer than 99% (? guess) of all Australians by electing to cheat along with many of the rest of the peloton.Should the people who directly paid his wage feel cheated? And should the public who indirectly paid his wages feel cheated?

The analogy is that we should applaud people who avoid tax and end up rich when they get caught (because allegedly everybody cheats on their tax).

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To all those casting O'Grady as a helpless victim of the culture.

 

Is it fair that he doped, (probably more than he has admitted) never served a ban, partly because he lied, while also publically condemned others for doping & continuing to deny his own doping? Most intelligent observers here recognise O'Grady's admission was self serving & forced upon him. None of us buy his two week autonomous doping story either.

 

In that respect people have a right to look at O'Grady and say he's dodged a bullet, bought an extended career & all that goes with it by continuing to lie when asked if he doped.

 

Its not about hating Stuart O'Grady (I'm still a massive fan) or wanting to see him pay a greater penalty than others. If he is back at Green Edge in 6 months it will be a travesty. He needs to sit it out for a few years even if the ban is self imposed.

Edited by hanging lake
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Just had a look at the full test results and found something interesting.

 

Stage 14 - July 26th - 1889UI/L of EPO, 61.3% EPO Isoforms

Stage 17 - July 29th - 390UI/L of EPO, 22.9% EPO Isoforms

Stage 20 - August 1st - 723UI/L of EPO, 33.8% EPO Isoforms

 

The rest day for the 1998 tour was on July 23rd, so assuming that there was no injection between the stage 14 test and the stage 17 test, there would have been an injection around the rest day on either the 23rd or 24th of July (either the day of or the day after the Festina team was arrested).

 

The numbers also show that he had a further injection EPO at some stage between stage 17 and stage 20 (probably on the evening of stage 17).

 

 

Looks like both of O'Gradys claims of only did it 2 weeks before the tour and that the arrests scared him off are both patently untrue.

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Just had a look at the full test results and found something interesting.

 

Stage 14 - July 26th - 1889UI/L of EPO, 61.3% EPO Isoforms

Stage 17 - July 29th - 390UI/L of EPO, 22.9% EPO Isoforms

Stage 20 - August 1st - 723UI/L of EPO, 33.8% EPO Isoforms

 

The rest day for the 1998 tour was on July 23rd, so assuming that there was no injection between the stage 14 test and the stage 17 test, there would have been an injection around the rest day on either the 23rd or 24th of July (either the day of or the day after the Festina team was arrested).

 

The numbers also show that he had a further injection EPO at some stage between stage 17 and stage 20 (probably on the evening of stage 17).

 

 

Looks like both of O'Gradys claims of only did it 2 weeks before the tour and that the arrests scared him off are both patently untrue.

 

Or, if the removal rate is around 25-30% a day (I have heard it stays in the system 3-4 days), then more could have been taken around the evening of the 24th, the evening of the 26th after the stage win and then the evening of the 2nd test on the 29th July.

 

Hard to keep something like that (stored in a chiller or ice thermos) out of the knowledge of the team for 3 weeks as he can't have driven back to Switzerland to top-up between stages.

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Was it O'grady that had the heart problems ?

the thread that keeps on giving, I pi$$ed myself laughing at that, that'll be another two pages

 

It really is just one big joke, do people really give a toss anymore tha a cyclist goes for drugs.... Whoopie friggin do

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You know, its interesting, I see similarities in the professional peloton to the organisation I joined in the mid 80s.

 

As history has shown the organisation was entrenched with corruption at every level. It wasn't even thought about. I recall as a young bloke being ostracised because I wasn't a drinker and a pisshead and thought of as strange or a plant from IA because I wanted to go and ride my bike and I shaved my legs.

 

Some of the examples I saw horrified me, and when I spoke out about it I nearly lost my job. Happily the main protagonist behind that was eventually revealed as a perjurer and corrupt, karma is a bitch. There were very few people in those days that weren't in on the giggle if you were a Detective it was a staple even the 'good guys' were in on it, as you knew it was so widespread right to the top you didn't dare rock the boat. Some of the worst crooks and drunks I ever saw were my work 'colleagues'. Often (usually) combining both while at work.

 

I see a lot of those old Detectives from years gone by retire with huge waterfront homes and millions of dollars, and guess they must have been lucky punters. Wasn't that long ago they were making 27 grand a year. That was one of the reasons I never wanted to be a Detective, and I guess one of the reasons years later I was one of the few non Detective Inspectors who was a Commander of a major crime group in the city focusing on drugs and organised crime figures. The major players some of whom have even have TV series made about them knew they had nothing on me although I worked for many years in the Cross during the Royal Commission.

 

Some people for various reasons couldn't cut the mustard and didn't make it, I got through it and can happily say I have no skeletons in my closet, which now approaching retirement even though 27 odd years has taken its toll in other ways I have a clear conscience.

 

Ive seen what it takes for systematic, widespread corporate and cultural change and have the depth and breadth of experience in my job to have seen that, right from being a probationary Constable to working for almost 2 years in the Commissioners Office heading up a very successful corporate change program. It takes a generation. There will of course always be pockets of bad eggs but the days of institutionalised corruption are now gone. Its a very different organisation to the one I joined.

 

To draw a parallel to my sporting pursuits, I saw many around me taking whatever they could get their hands on, and following my own personal compass declined, seeing them come back from injury or surgery so much quicker and be better than they were before. I often wonder if I had succumbed and I was sorely tempted whether I would have still had two functioning hips and a lot more first places to look back on. Seeing the long term affects (none) on those I know who did I would have to say probably.

 

Like the catholic church, for a long time it was okay to sexually abuse children and an accepted part of the culture in some parts of it, in direct and heinous betrayal of the vows they deemed to uphold. Regrettably Ive also had experiences with this. Perhaps change is in the wind here, but the culture of omerta seems to even more deeply entrenched. As is the hypocrisy.

 

Ive seen what it takes for cultural, systematic and generational change in a large organisation or group.

 

That's also got to happen with sport.

Edited by TUv5.0
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Ive seen what it takes for cultural, systematic and generational change in a large organisation or group.

So in your experience, what does it take?

 

Do you draw a line in the sand and anything happening before that gets off scott free?

 

Do you do an amnesty?

 

Do you encourage change and aggressively prosecute evidence of previous wrongdoing when it crops up?

 

Do you allow those with dodgy past to help with building the future?

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A royal commission with coercive powers, assets seizure, disposal powers and pecuniary orders (take their houses and their money off them and make them pay back what they have earned) and a few blokes getting sent to jail. Along with investigators who know what they are doing. There will be a bit of collateral damage of course, a few suicides here and there so I guess you have to weigh that up.

 

Never happen. Even here in Australia would destroy too many big industries.

 

They cant even do it in horseracing.

 

So it gets back to your own personal integrity I guess.

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TU you are spot on and its consistent with my experience around corporate, religous non profit and government workers as well as political people

 

 

There are less and less people these days who value what they see in the mirror and place all the emphasis on making $ no matter what people think of them

 

We live in a world where public perception is over emphasised and valuing personal integrity isnt something thats "handed down" like it used to be

 

Go back a hundred years and it was considered poor social form to talk about or flash about money- these days it seems to be that first and character second

 

I am very glad there are people in the public service with integrity like yours- you might not be as rich as many but when you are 90 you'll be proud of what you see in the mirror..........thats the theory Im working on when I see guys in my industry with no real skills and selling out others make a fortune

 

SOG has to live with himself and his money when he is 90- his choice whether he likes what he sees or not

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I wont be around when Im 90..... Im hoping to exit long before that with dignity.

 

Another thing the religious bigots want to stick their noses in. Im not going to make a nursing home rich. Im not scared of death, whereas conversely it could be argued those who are prolong a subsistence on earth shitting their pants before going to some version of 'paradise' or 'heaven' are scared of death, or their egos want them to think their life has some eternal being...

 

Ill be happy to check out and let the kiddo spend the inheritance. Given my recent issues and the death of a friend who he knew, Ive had that talk with him.

 

As the big man KP said and Ive experienced...:"Ive been to the other side and theres nuthin there".

Edited by TUv5.0
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A royal commission with coercive powers, assets seizure, disposal powers and pecuniary orders (take their houses and their money off them and make them pay back what they have earned) and a few blokes getting sent to jail. Along with investigators who know what they are doing. There will be a bit of collateral damage of course, a few suicides here and there so I guess you have to weigh that up.

 

Never happen. Even here in Australia would destroy too many big industries.

 

They cant even do it in horseracing.

 

So it gets back to your own personal integrity I guess.

In terms of professional cycling Matt White argued yesterday that this is where the UCI could have led the way, providing the framework, a pathway that would encourage past dopers like O'Grady out into the open. Is Matt White right, partly right........What specifically should the UCI have done? Or is it the case that a greater authority needs to oversee a "commission of inquiry" that not only looks into professional teams but also the UCI.

Edited by hanging lake
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... the culture of omerta seems to even more deeply entrenched.

Marty Vinnicombe just unleashing on facebook,saying " some of our cyclists are pathetic liars and gutless a**holes who would prefer the lie to continue...." (asterisks mine)

Edited by Derny Driver
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Marty Vinnicombe just unleashing on facebook,saying " some of our cyclists are pathetic liars and gutless a**holes who would prefer the lie to continue...." (asterisks mine)

 

We are still yet to hear the outcomes of his statements and others from the ASADA investigations.

 

Bit like taking the prawn heads out of the freezer. They'll start to stink eventually.

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thats why so many people love their animals- the non human species on this planet generally act with a lot more loyalty and integrity :-)

and she is an excellent runner, Yesterday the plan was to do a moderate paced 12 K, got out there at 4:30 pace, dog not happy speeds things up a notch and we end up coming home in a touch over 50 minutes give or take a few seconds.

 

Clearly comes from the school of harden up as I looked a bit mournful at times but she said no way we are slowing down

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thats why so many people love their animals- the non human species on this planet generally act with a lot more loyalty and integrity :-)

Mate there are some very, very decent human beings out there who carve a swathe of love and service out there. They don't need to quantify their character traits verbally or publicly- yet their reach and influence is profound. Thank god I have a few people like that in my life.

 

Yes, the drugs scandal is very disappointing and it is easy to demonise. Very poor choices always have complexities - not to justify his decision to take peds - I just hope the sport can clean itself up, and blokes like Stuie can get a fair go at forgiveness, reconciliation and redemption.

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