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O'Grady Retires


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So we make it medically supervised and centralise it, monitor athletes. East Germany made a go of that decades ago. Chinese swimmers anyone?

 

Brings us right back to Festina, etc too.

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No, just rambling nonsense.   I don't think anyone has claimed that O'Grady or Zabel aren't 'hard men', or that there aren't cheats in other sports and other professions.   The only reason Stuey,

You know, its interesting, I see similarities in the professional peloton to the organisation I joined in the mid 80s.   As history has shown the organisation was entrenched with corruption at every

we all have choices trek. of course he had a choice. just like the bloke who chooses to walk out on his family because he's bored, or it gets a bit hard - granted some choices are very difficult but t

 

So we make it medically supervised and centralise it, monitor athletes. East Germany made a go of that decades ago. Chinese swimmers anyone?

That's an interesting viewpoint.

 

Those communist states viewed themselves as academically, culturally and genetically superior and sporting success was a crucial piece of that.

 

National success was the only imperative. The individual athlete was not factored into the equation, thus the sporting schools etc and genetic testing from an early age. Hey don't fit into the profile or wanna tow the line? Back to life in Siberia or a quick bit of Stalin and shuffle off... I think he only murdered twenty million or so .... so you are using a great example.

 

You cant not fail to know all this mate so the argument you make is poorly supported.

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That's the way, throw your toys out of the cot. Oh your irreverence... haha

 

Tick, tick, tick....

 

The mills of the gods grind slowly but relentlessly.

 

The chickens are eventually coming home to roost...

Not sure i am showing any lack of respct here big fella?

 

I should clarfity Cyclying is an amazing sport and provides millions with vast amounts of joy and health, incluing myself. The sport of Proffesional Cycling is one big scam......and this bloke has contributed........and nothing happens to him.

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Everyone is entitled to a viewpoint. I just don't think the proliferation of positive tests in one sport should be viewed as an absolute.

 

We could justifiably ask why there have been virtually no positive tests in other sports, not only looking at what we are told, but what we are not.

 

Most people on this board are triathlon competitors or participants. Hypothetically what would happen if the sport suddenly had a proliferation of positives at the professional level? Or a few of the sports icons went positive? Nina Craft did in Hawaii, but it didn't stop people from watching it or doing it. Lot of criticism of cycling here as most people aren't cyclists. Ive got a foot in both camps and formed views based on my experiences. That's all. Some people want to bury their heads in the sand.

 

Life will go on and people will do what they want, and think what they want.

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That's an interesting viewpoint.

 

Those communist states viewed themselves as academically, culturally and genetically superior and sporting success was a crucial piece of that.

 

National success was the only imperative. The individual athlete was not factored into the equation, thus the sporting schools etc and genetic testing from an early age. Hey don't fit into the profile or wanna tow the line? Back to life in Siberia or a quick bit of Stalin and shuffle off... I think he only murdered twenty million or so .... so you are using a great example.

 

You cant not fail to know all this mate so the argument you make is poorly supported.

 

I'm using an example of medically supervised, systematic doping. The communist stuff had nothing to do with my point. When it is served up to us it smells, looks and tastes like a shit sandwich. Australia is just as guilty of Nationalistic fervour in pursuit of sporting excellence to appease the national psyche. AIS was born of that after disastrous Olympics in Montreal.

 

I'm not happy when we wipe our hands and let the Doctors take care of our cheating programs. Becomes a Pharmacological arms race and the winner becomes the lab coat who is prepared to take the biggest risks with their athletes

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I'm using an example of medically supervised, systematic doping. The communist stuff had nothing to do with my point. When it is served up to us it smells, looks and tastes like a shit sandwich. Australia is just as guilty of Nationalistic fervour in pursuit of sporting excellence to appease the national psyche. AIS was born of that after disastrous Olympics in Montreal.

 

I'm not happy when we wipe our hands and let the Doctors take care of our cheating programs. Becomes a Pharmacological arms race and the winner becomes the lab coat who is prepared to take the biggest risks with their athletes

I hate to point this out mate... but doctors are in charge of the best cheating programs.

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I hate to point this out mate... but doctors are in charge of the best cheating programs.

Indeed or like Conconi do cheating and testing concurrently!

 

He took the EPO to supposedly find a test for WADA and then doped riders with it, including Stephen Roche!

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Another chump dope cheat who lied when asked about doping, avoided sanction & only fessed up when caught out.

 

Consequences = Big fat ???? marks over everything Stuart O'Grady ever achieved in cycling. Respect lost. Trust lost.

 

Was it really worth it?

 

The stupidity of cheating.

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I suppose I have a pragmatic and realistic view regarding doping in sports. Ive said before that what other sport trots out things to damage its brand 15 years on? People might argue it was a French Judicial enquiry to root out the heresy but cynic I am Im curious about the timing that it is happening at all, and curiously it is at a time the UCI congress is coming up and a new President may or may not get elected, this allows them to point the finger at the past and avoid nasty questions about the future.

 

In terms of athletes and those who participate in sport in general I find them quality human beings. There are exceptions to that rule, as opposed to other parts of society, people who actually have to move their arse and do something for themselves are better people. Some of those nice people cheat. Some of the arseholes, hardnuts and those you may not particularly like don't. Some are narcissists or sociopaths that would run over their own mothers for a few bucks. We are a complex bunch of personalities.

 

Contrast that with my experience with other parts of humanity which regrettably Ive had a lot to do with. People tell me my perspective is narrow but its a lot broader than you would think. I see people from all walks of life at their absolute worst and so you see how they really are. Not just the entrenched criminal element. If you only see people they way they want you to see them then you don't have that perspective. For most people this limits them to their wives/husbands, children and close friends.

 

Most human beings are flawed. Athletes less than most. If you put people on a pedestal and idolise them and then find out they are human then its your fault, maybe you should go and pat those little fairies down in the garden.

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was it Vogels that said - you cant make a donkey into a superstar?

 

will he still keep his millions and live in Monaco? maybe he will not get the gig as the new Green Edge bus driver but will still be eating pastries and drinking coffee after he has dropped the kids off to school.

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Boardman - missing

McEwen - clean on Stage 1

Backstedt - missing

Jens - missing

 

Stuey:

Stage 14 (won): 2 out of three testing methods show EPO, 3rd shows clear

Stage 17: clean

Stage 20: clean

 

However, he wasn't tested on any of Stage 4,5,6 when he had the yellow jersey.

 

As to his claim that that was the only time "because the year before he was getting dropped 5km into a mountain stage", that's complete bollox. Look at the '99 Tour stage results and he's right up there with Zabel (the dude who claimed he only tried it in '96, busted also yesterday) vying for the stage wins. Also second in green jersey in '98, '99, '01 & '05, and 3rd in '02.

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Timeline wise - how does his story stack up with the tests?

How long does EPO stay in the body?

He has an adverse finding stage 14, but returns 2 negatives stage 18 & 21?

Then again, Ullrich goes positive stage 14 and adverse 2 days later, so I doped up before the tour seems hollow at best.

 

Voigt missing sample.

Hamilton on the TT stage not tested/retested?

 

McEwen, Svorada, Den Bakker, Hincapie the only ones who only appear to have only negative results

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Timeline wise - how does his story stack up with the tests?

How long does EPO stay in the body?

He has an adverse finding stage 14, but returns 2 negatives stage 18 & 21?

Then again, Ullrich goes positive stage 14 and adverse 2 days later, so I doped up before the tour seems hollow at best.

 

Voigt missing sample.

Hamilton on the TT stage not tested/retested?

 

McEwen, Svorada, Den Bakker, Hincapie the only ones who only appear to have only negative results

At the level needed to test positive under these test criteria (85%) around 3-4 days I read.

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Another chump dope cheat who lied when asked about doping, avoided sanction & only fessed up when caught out.

 

Consequences = Big fat ???? marks over everything Stuart O'Grady ever achieved in cycling. Respect lost. Trust lost.

 

Was it really worth it?

 

The stupidity of cheating.

Messed up thing is if these guys never cheated, none of us would even know their names.

 

Only Stu will know if he would have been happier working as a bike mechanic for the last 20 years, or had 17 Tour De Frances, 5 Olympics a gold medal, but have to go through this. I reckon he probably still thinks it was worth it.

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At the level needed to test positive under these test criteria (85%) around 3-4 days I read.

Poor Stuey.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/cycling/stuart-ogrady-admits-to-tour-de-france-doping-20130725-2qk04.html

 

I used extremely cautious amounts because I'd heard a lot of horror stories and did the absolute minimum of what I hoped would get me through.
..
When the Festina Affair happened, I smashed it, got rid of it and that was the last I ever touched it.
And despite all that he got pinged 9 days after Festina.
Unlucky. :shit:
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Even in guilt there can be differences in the way people handle themselves.

You were a Lance hater from very early on. Red mist tinted glasses make all the difference, I suppose... But but but ... Lance was a bully ... Yep, perhaps he was, but there is no doubt he was singled out and targeted by the haters - since at least the time of the Iraqi war (curious but true) who simultaneously were giving all the other dopers a free pass and / or piss weak sanctions ... Like other dangerous animals, attacked when under attack ... but ofd course, looking through red mist tinted glasses, he deserved his life ban and everybody else deserved the wet lettuce flogging that has been handed out thus far ... Don't you love 'it was only once, and I was sooo embarrassed' line. Where have I heard that before ... oh, that's right - Stuie is channelling Saint David Millar ...

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But he was targeted by the haters who simultaneously were giving all the other dopers a free pass and / or piss weak sanctions ...

 

... deserved the wet lettuce flogging that has been handed out thus far ...

Ah, revisionist history. Love it.

 

You're omitting Armstrong daring people to go after him... his version of Bush's "bring it on".

 

You're also omitting the fact he was offered a deal and told them to get ****ed, because he thought he had the upper hand. He didn't, and is now crying 'no-fair' because he missed out on the deal.

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these are not smart guys. you are unlikely to stick in cycling if you have a brain powerful enough to get to the top of a profession. they are scrappers who have become rich by doing whatever it takes. SOG will have good company in Monaco- plenty of other street fighter millionaires who have not worried about bending the rules so they can kick back in the sunshine when they get old. If he wanted moral validation he would have become a priest. If he wanted to be respected for his learned words he would have gone to school.

 

Better he just keep his mouth shut and we admire him what what he is a good bike rider- not a moral leader or some kind of national icon

 

i never have understood the aussie obsession with thinking their sporting champions are those we should model our lives on or be spokespeople on stuff other than sport- most of them have come from pretty ordinary circumstances with a lot of ugly stuff hidden behind the facade of a medal or world title-most of them have no clue about life outside being a sportsman

 

Its a bit unfair on OGrady to expect him to have conducted his career with the purity of the Governor General- cycling is a scrappers sport - not unlike boxing you wont get anywhere without getting your hands dirty- especially as a minority aussie in the 90's peleton- same went for LA

 

I strongly agree with TU on one point - the focus should be on the enablers and the people running the sport. These blokes are very good jockeys but very poor media spokespeople and not unsurprisingly come across as dumb every time they open their mouth. Its sad all these blokes are being hung out to dry while the smart people just hide away

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Ah, revisionist history. Love it.

 

You're omitting Armstrong daring people to go after him... his version of Bush's "bring it on".

 

You're also omitting the fact he was offered a deal and told them to get ****ed, because he thought he had the upper hand. He didn't, and is now crying 'no-fair' because he missed out on the deal.

I find it hilarious Lance pushing for truth and reconciliation under the belief he will have his life ban overturned.

 

Kidding himself.

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Messed up thing is if these guys never cheated, none of us would even know their names.

 

Only Stu will know if he would have been happier working as a bike mechanic for the last 20 years, or had 17 Tour De Frances, 5 Olympics a gold medal, but have to go through this. I reckon he probably still thinks it was worth it.

Maybe.

 

O'Grady argues the doping was a one off over two weeks. Therefore implying that the rest of his career was rode paniagua, which if true puts paid to theory there would have been no Olympic gold medals, 17 TDF's but for drug assistance.

 

Indeed if O'Grady is telling the truth & he only doped once then his career & achievements are a testament to fact that talent can transfer into success at the highest level over a long period (including the 'doping years') without doping.

 

But now we are all wondering if Stuey is telling us the complete truth. And our reluctance to believe him is justified because Stuey has previously been asked about doping & denied it. As recently as 2012 in wake of Matt White confession. O'Grady's lie = contempt for the fans & the sport & now he gets contempt in return. Its so bloody sad.

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i dont think most of these guys give a flying **** about being respected by the fans. the pro cycling insiders value their mates inside the scene, their money and their families...survivial. They do enough to give the impression its for the fans- but no more. its a select gang membership and you are bound by a code- in return that provides you with a lot of mates for life and respect within the pro cycling club. He will likely be living, socialising and working with his gang members for most of his future adult life. He would rather **** over anyone else outside it than give up one of his brothers- thats how it works. If you play by their rules you'll have more mates and money than you could ever need. Anyone else is a "punter" .....thats how they see it.

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Ah, revisionist history. Love it.

You're omitting Armstrong daring people to go after him... his version of Bush's "bring it on".

You're also omitting the fact he was offered a deal and told them to get ****ed, because he thought he had the upper hand. He didn't, and is now crying 'no-fair' because he missed out on the deal.

Apparently Pope Francis is going to award you the title of "Defender of the Faith" for your stirling work on here Don.

 

FYI, I put that post up to time your response Don - my own version of Pavlov's Dog experiment. A five minute response time tells me you are slipping, son...

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I can't be bothered reading this thread, are you guys saying he had to be on drugs?

so you weren't but you are all saying, including him he was now...... Lol

 

No different to a scum bag junkie with a needle sticking out his arm in a public toilet.

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Interesting how some members on this forum jump to Jens defence because of an emotional attachment. Similar type reactions with O'grady.

 

Anywhere there is fame, power and fortune to be had there will be corruption. Just look at the police force or the prison system.

 

Nina Craft was, in my opinion, unlucky to be the only one caught. Wellington's results have to be questioned.

 

And as for O'Gradys mental health, he should have thought of that before he cheated. Simple

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Not sure i am showing any lack of respct here big fella?

 

I should clarfity Cyclying is an amazing sport and provides millions with vast amounts of joy and health, incluing myself. The sport of Proffesional Cycling is one big scam......and this bloke has contributed........and nothing happens to him.

Was that intentional or just a brilliant typo? :)

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Professional cycling and professional wrestling..... Not a lot of difference.

Except in cycling a bunch of hard men doped TO WIN, in wrestling a bunch of soft men doped to look tough whilst winning or losing according to a predetermined script...

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So will the outing of riders now discourage doping into the future?

 

If I am an up and coming pro and believe that success is impossible without doping, will the fear of potentially being caught post retirement convince me not to dope?

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So will the outing of riders now discourage doping into the future?

 

If I am an up and coming pro and believe that success is impossible without doping, will the fear of potentially being caught post retirement convince me not to dope?

When you see Froomie doing an ugly version of the Lance Dance, the answer is probably not...

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So will the outing of riders now discourage doping into the future?

 

If I am an up and coming pro and believe that success is impossible without doping, will the fear of potentially being caught post retirement convince me not to dope?

 

There was an article linked to here I think previously that said it was not teh threat of getting caught that made riders dope but the "herd" mentality and "suspicion" that kept people doping, in the belief not that they needed it per se, but that the competition was also doing it so they had to to keep up.

 

When the overwhelming belief amongst the riders is that the rest are clean then the tide will turn. Id say we are somewhere in the middle right now.

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  • "The perpetually scandal-plagued tour has exasperated many in the sport, including Australian star Stuart O’Grady, who has called for a lifetime ban for dope cheats.“When are people going to realize that this is what puts our sport in jeopardy?” he told the Australian Age. “How many warning shots are going to be shot over the bow for them to realize? As far as I’m concerned they should be hit with a lifetime ban. They can go and pick cherries or do some other job, I don’t care. Just don’t come into cycling if you’re going to cheat" - http://www.globalethics.org/newsline/2008/07/21/doping/

 

  • Lied to the Adelaide Advertiser (until today) -

     

    "There's so much damning evidence against him that it's obviously looking like this happened and I'm as shocked as anybody."I've been around through the good, bad and ugly. From 1998 in the Tour when the Festina affair blew up and what's happened recently. I'm in as much shock as anybody."Speaking to The Advertiser from his Luxembourg home this week, Australian cycling's elder statesman said he had never even considered doping in his career. "It's never been a thought, never been an option," he said. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/stuart-ogrady-shocked-by-lance-armstrong-scandal/story-fnanprbk-1226497289074

 

 

 

Edited by hanging lake
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FYI, I put that post up to time your response Don - my own version of Pavlov's Dog experiment. A five minute response time tells me you are slipping, son...

Sure you did :rolleyes:

 

You've been trotting that line out for a while now. Maybe you're hoping if you repeat it enough people will believe it?

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Apparently Pope Francis is going to award you the title of "Defender of the Faith" for your stirling work on here Don.

BTW, I've had myself de-baptised. Pope Francis won't be giving me anything :lol:

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McEwen, Svorada, Den Bakker, Hincapie the only ones who only appear to have only negative results

 

Interesting that Hincapie had a negative result, given that he admitted his use of EPO prior to 2006.

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So even those in the more revered section of the peleton have sinned? Tell me it isn't so! ( :

 

SO what part of going over the past will really help the future. Give them time out of the sport even after they retire?

 

And under law, given none of these findings relate to a criminal act can we even say do the crime and pay the time and we'll forgive you?

 

What cycling does stand to lose right now is its very IP; the years of knowledge, of strategy, team managership etc. (and yes within that how to beat the system - but that is slowly dying out) - and if enough old drugged up riders are caught and banned will there be anyone left to man the support cars etc in the Grand Tours (as these positions are open only to those who have ridden!)

 

I know I'm fighting a moral fight inside as the heart says ban them all; the head says save those who will preach the path of rightessnous, ride clean, fight fair and use what we did wrong to get it right for the future.

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Maybe.

 

O'Grady argues the doping was a one off over two weeks. Therefore implying that the rest of his career was rode paniagua, which if true puts paid to theory there would have been no Olympic gold medals, 17 TDF's but for drug assistance.

 

Indeed if O'Grady is telling the truth & he only doped once then his career & achievements are a testament to fact that talent can transfer into success at the highest level over a long period (including the 'doping years') without doping.

 

But now we are all wondering if Stuey is telling us the complete truth. And our reluctance to believe him is justified because Stuey has previously been asked about doping & denied it. As recently as 2012 in wake of Matt White confession. O'Grady's lie = contempt for the fans & the sport & now he gets contempt in return. Its so bloody sad.

 

Who is wondering if he is telling the truth?

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When you see Froomie doing an ugly version of the Lance Dance, the answer is probably not...

Don't be silly guys never dope in the 'current era'.

 

The only ever did it in the past.

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And under law, given none of these findings relate to a criminal act can we even say do the crime and pay the time and we'll forgive you?

 

What cycling does stand to lose right now is its very IP; the years of knowledge, of strategy, team managership etc. (and yes within that how to beat the system - but that is slowly dying out) - and if enough old drugged up riders are caught and banned will there be anyone left to man the support cars etc in the Grand Tours (as these positions are open only to those who have ridden!)

None of these findings are actionable in terms of the official authorities banning anyone. It will however test the resolve of teams like OGE who have very recently developed a hard line stance. If they do allow ex-dopers onto their staff, we'll know that nothing has really changed, despite their tough words.

 

Personally, I believe strongly that there is a continual arms race between testers and team doctors. Testers play whack-a-mole against the strategies that they know about. This doesn't occur only in cycling, but in most non-skill-based sports including athletics and swimming, where there's great bang for your buck from doping.

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