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Time to qualify for an Ironman?


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What they are talking about isnt "qualifying" as it used to be but more "validating".

 

Qualifying used to be competing for the spots based on times and roll downs similar to Kona qualifying.

 

I dont have a problem with validating, but if they are serious about it being for "helath and wellbeing" of competitors etc, then they should accept a race of similar length/ duration not just IM branded races, otherwise its just a cash grab.

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I am for validation.

agree with what Roxii says.

 

But - even if we assume the WTC want to monopolise the cash - if they had validation, then they probably make even more money as now every IM candidate will have done at least one WTC 70.3 beforehand too. Sure, the mad rush on IM spots may slow down a bit (maybe) , but the extra 70.3 entries would cover shat I woudl think,

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don't agree validation is a money grab - it sets an event up to be run well

 

Sixfoot is great as it sells out real quick as people view it as a great run event but no different to other events really - just has a good name and self marketing now and has strict validations

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Let people enter and fail if they have to - they're adults and should be able to make the decision themselves. Myself and 4 mates went from only having done a single OD to doing Challenge Cairns, and all finished and had a great day out.

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Sixfoot is great as it sells out real quick as people view it as a great run event but no different to other events really - just has a good name and self marketing now and has strict validations

 

 

But if Sixfoot, puts on a "ThreeFootTrack" half distance race and said you HAD to do this race to qualify it would be a money grab. This is how WTC have run both qualifying and validating in the past.

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What they are talking about isnt "qualifying" as it used to be but more "validating".

 

Qualifying used to be competing for the spots based on times and roll downs similar to Kona qualifying.

 

I dont have a problem with validating, but if they are serious about it being for "helath and wellbeing" of competitors etc, then they should accept a race of similar length/ duration not just IM branded races, otherwise its just a cash grab.

 

 

Agree wholeheartedly Roxi ,people need to have an idea of what they are up for not blindly going into it without some experience .....even if it's only half the distance

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don't agree validation is a money grab - it sets an event up to be run well

 

Sixfoot is great as it sells out real quick as people view it as a great run event but no different to other events really - just has a good name and self marketing now and has strict validations

 

 

Not sure how validation sets the event up to be run any better or worse.

 

Six Foot? Apples and oranges, seriously.

 

IM validation through a Half IM (still can't bring myself to use that wanky 70.3 title), is very different to 6 Foot accepting what is essentially "proof of fitness/experience" from numerous races, none of which have any financial affiliation with 6 Foot.

 

I first ran Six Foot over 20 years ago and other than a few small ads in running mags in the late '80s and early '90s, and more recently emails regarding the entry process, I do not recall it ever being marketed.

 

As for the 6 Foot qualifiers being strict, there's well over 50 races in Aust alone, from about 30km and up, at which you qualify. At the tougher end of the scale, all it takes is 4 hour marathon. That's hardly strict qualification.

Edited by Paul Every
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what i am suggesting is wtc validate using something like a marathon in last 5 years, a half ironman, whatever.....

 

But they can choose to run their business the way they like

 

WTC do money grab through the kona lottery - everyone wants to go - but cannot as they need to validate and qualify - the way it should be but then give away spots as they know they will make a killing as people want to go but not to do the hard work - it should be one way or the other

 

people want to do IM but not the hard work - again - they can do what they want but would make more sense to know the people entering are at least capable of finsihing and are aware of the training load - I think sixfoot do it the right way and they sell out in seconds

 

All I am suggesting is a line in the sand so everyone knows what is needed - maybe a bad idea maybe a good one

 

I am glad I did halves and long course before IM so I knew what to expect

 

just my thoughts - not sure people worry too much about it and not my issue but would make sense I woudl have thought - or not.....

Edited by bunny
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How are they gonna sell out a race a year in advance if you have to validate that season?

 

 

 

Good point - but it may affect a small percentage - if you have never done a marathon in last 5 years, half IM, multi sport event etc so then you sign on and if you do not complete then you lose the spot - you could over subscribe and make more money then!!!!!

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Bunny, you do realise that 6 Foot isn't a sell-out race and everyone who submitted an entry in December, has been offered a starting place? Pretty much the same with previous years. That's not really "selling out in seconds".

 

As for Kona, you do know the history behind the lottery predates WTC's ownership? You may hold the opinion that qualifying should be the only way to get to Kona, but those who originally conducted the event mandated that a proportion of entries would always be accessable to the "non-elite".

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Good point - but it may affect a small percentage - if you have never done a marathon in last 5 years, half IM, multi sport event etc so then you sign on and if you do not complete then you lose the spot - you could over subscribe and make more money then!!!!!

 

 

Or the real conspiracy theory:

 

By making you enter 2 events with questionable refund policies, they double the chance that you will suffer an injury in training and thereby forfeit not one but 2 entries with still the one $150 refund

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Good point - but it may affect a small percentage - if you have never done a marathon in last 5 years, half IM, multi sport event etc so then you sign on and if you do not complete then you lose the spot - you could over subscribe and make more money then!!!!!

 

 

I put a post on the fotb site. In short, I did IM Melbourne last year having not done any halves (same as Paul Every, don't like the 70.3 term) or IM's in 4 years, so I would have been screwed but still did OK.

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Bunny, you do realise that 6 Foot isn't a sell-out race and everyone who submitted an entry in December, has been offered a starting place? Pretty much the same with previous years. That's not really "selling out in seconds".

 

 

It isn't a sell out? Sweet I'm going to jump on a plane and fly down and rock up sunday morning and sign up then.

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I think what is needed is a tiered process for IM to please everybody.

 

Fast guys want to race fast guys, MOP's and BOP's want to race their mates and enjoy the day.

 

Busso IM and Cairns IM - open to anybody

Port (AUS title) and Melbourne (Asia Pacific title) should require a qualification process

 

Same around the world with IM's in Europe with Frankfurt as the European Champs being only for qualified athletes.

 

I don't think this is elitist.......it would promote faster racing.

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It's on Saturday Brett.

 

 

My bad, ive never done it but have a few mates that always do. There are always a few that miss out so i cant understand the comment it doesnt sell out?

Edited by RunBrettRun
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My bad, ive never done it but have a few mates that always do. There are always a few that miss out so i cant understand the comment it doesnt sell out?

 

 

The fact is If you really want to race and missed out on first time entries there is a waitlist available and pretty much everyone that puts their name down does get a spot due to the number of people that end up pulling out for different reasons.

 

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I think what is needed is a tiered process for IM to please everybody.

 

Fast guys want to race fast guys, MOP's and BOP's want to race their mates and enjoy the day.

 

Busso IM and Cairns IM - open to anybody

Port (AUS title) and Melbourne (Asia Pacific title) should require a qualification process

 

Same around the world with IM's in Europe with Frankfurt as the European Champs being only for qualified athletes.

 

I don't think this is elitist.......it would promote faster racing.

 

 

I would have to say that in the days of "validation" races, Forster was the only IM race on the calendar. There was a case for validation then, but that case no longer exists, with 4 major IM's on the calendar.

 

But since you mention Port and Melbourne, I think it might be a reasonable requirement to have finished a HIM in the previous 12 months, but with no stipulation as to which race and no specific time cut off. It's bizarre though, overseas entrants are welcomed to both races with no validation required.

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I think what is needed is a tiered process for IM to please everybody.

 

Fast guys want to race fast guys, MOP's and BOP's want to race their mates and enjoy the day.

 

Busso IM and Cairns IM - open to anybody

Port (AUS title) and Melbourne (Asia Pacific title) should require a qualification process

 

Same around the world with IM's in Europe with Frankfurt as the European Champs being only for qualified athletes.

 

I don't think this is elitist.......it would promote faster racing.

 

The fast guys race the fast guys at every race they are the people at the front . Unless you are an AG going 9 hours or less how will the proposed model make the fields much stronger other than there might be one or two more guys to race against.

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I would have to say that in the days of "validation" races, Forster was the only IM race on the calendar. There was a case for validation then, but that case no longer exists, with 4 major IM's on the calendar.

 

But since you mention Port and Melbourne, I think it might be a reasonable requirement to have finished a HIM in the previous 12 months, but with no stipulation as to which race and no specific time cut off. It's bizarre though, overseas entrants are welcomed to both races with no validation required.

 

 

Totally agree with you as the sport stands right now, but I believe we should look to the future and promote hard racing. Not only would it attract the hard nuts coming in from other sports (swimmers, marathoners etc.) but it adds a new tier of competition to what I think is a unsustainable and very tired old format.

 

For the guys currently going 10:15 - 12:00 which is the vast majority it provides a carrot there to get under 10:00 hypothetically to snag one of the 20 spots to go to the next level up. In this way, you go to Melbourne lets say, and you know you have to really train your arse off as 60% of your AG are going to be really moving.

 

It provides a couple of races for the 13+ hours people that want to get out there, have fun, tick the box and race with their mates and it provides a new level of competition and a whole new race dynamic within AG racing.

 

I just think the way IM is now with WTC is dying, as it is not creating or reinventing itself. IT is just putting on more races at a higher price point to no real benefit except their pocket.

 

A tiered system (ideally where pro's also get a larger share of $$$) would create or promote a higher standard of racing not currently seen.

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I just think the way IM is now with WTC is dying, as it is not creating or reinventing itself. IT is just putting on more races at a higher price point to no real benefit except their pocket.

 

 

And what do you think is more important to WTC? Why do people always confuse a for profit company with a custodian of the sport.

 

FFS, the guys that want to go fast can still go fast. There's plenty (more and more so) of spots for everyone. If you need qualification into a "higher level" to motivate you to train to go faster then there's something wrong with you. How about just wanting to go faster, to beat the next guy? If you don't have the internal motivation for that then I doubt a qualification will drive you any harder.

 

Anyone who calls for qualification when there are so many races available is only seeking to validate themselves by separating from the bucket listers. If you want to feel superior then just go and do something important. That doesn't include a sub-whatever ironman.

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Reading some of the comments on FOTB re. having to be fast on the keyboard to get into an Ironman. Port took a few days to sell out, so if anyone really wanted to do an Ironman, there was no reason to miss out.

 

As for a validation system, I'd be f@cked. I haven't raced since 2006 (1/2 IM) and my last Ironman was 10yrs ago :shocking:

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Port Macquarie and Melbourne are both billed as championship races. At least one of them should be qualifiers only.

 

make it a true local championship race where the players go to play, leave the other 3 races in the country as general admission.

 

Melbourne is the asia-pac champs, whatever the hell that is ?? prob lean more towards port macq being the qualifiers only certified dick swinging race. Honkers, swamp donkeys, pretenders and bucketlisters need not apply.....

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Most AGers choose to do the races because of timing, location, allure of destination, suitability of the course.....I wonder how many would rank "Race against the best in my AG as a regional champs" as a major reason? That's what Hawaii is for.

 

The regional champs have more slots that's enough to bring more fast guys

 

It's fine as it is, nothing needs changing.

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Getting away from the original topic, but along the "Championship" lines:

 

Swap the timing of Port and Melbourne

Lets say you're top 10 in your category in any regional HIM or IM.

Plus top 20 at the National Champs event (Port/Taupo/??) you get a slot in the Regional Champs - Melbourne.

 

Added to this you have the extra slots available for Hawaii.

More slots, plus more roll downs, thanks to guys already taking slots at the earlier races means more pointy end punters get to the World Champs.

 

NB - No idea if this would even be possible numbers\approvals\whatever, just spit balling.

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I think what is needed is a tiered process for IM to please everybody.

 

Fast guys want to race fast guys, MOP's and BOP's want to race their mates and enjoy the day.

 

Busso IM and Cairns IM - open to anybody

Port (AUS title) and Melbourne (Asia Pacific title) should require a qualification process

 

Same around the world with IM's in Europe with Frankfurt as the European Champs being only for qualified athletes.

 

I don't think this is elitist.......it would promote faster racing.

 

While I agree with the intent of this, I also think it would be unfair to take two races out of the equation for those who couldn't qualify. For me I dont want to have to go to WA or Cairns to race, so unless I qualified (tough in the 30-34 group) it means an IM would be out of the question.

 

 

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My thoughts are that there should be a validation process - I think it should be a 70.3*. In addition there should be a limited numbers qualifying process for anyone wanting recognition for titles or Kona qualification.

 

An example of what I am talking about is, take 30-34 males at a 70.3. The first 10 are offered "qualifying" spots to one of the IM races and also get priority entry. Then at the IM they choose to race they are eligible for Kona qualification or placing in the respective title i.e Asia Pacific Champion.

Everyone else can still enter the IM races (on a first come first served) basis but have no right to progress any further. That way the fast guys don't miss entries to IM and get to race head to head for the Kona spots and for everyone else it is business as usual.

 

*i think a 70.3 is fair because it's WTC's series after all. Consider this - To the best of my knowledge if you want to be selected to race for Aus in a world championship then you have to jump through the TriAus and ITU hoops, so why not jump through WTC's.

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My thoughts are that there should be a validation process - I think it should be a 70.3*. In addition there should be a limited numbers qualifying process for anyone wanting recognition for titles or Kona qualification.

 

An example of what I am talking about is, take 30-34 males at a 70.3. The first 10 are offered "qualifying" spots to one of the IM races and also get priority entry. Then at the IM they choose to race they are eligible for Kona qualification or placing in the respective title i.e Asia Pacific Champion.

Everyone else can still enter the IM races (on a first come first served) basis but have no right to progress any further. That way the fast guys don't miss entries to IM and get to race head to head for the Kona spots and for everyone else it is business as usual.

 

*i think a 70.3 is fair because it's WTC's series after all. Consider this - To the best of my knowledge if you want to be selected to race for Aus in a world championship then you have to jump through the TriAus and ITU hoops, so why not jump through WTC's.

ThIs is a well thought out idea

I think this could work but I couldn't see WTC( usm) going to all the extra work involved while everything seems to be working fine

Eg. Everything is selling out world wide so why would they change

Cheers

Ip

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ThIs is a well thought out idea

I think this could work but I couldn't see WTC( usm) going to all the extra work involved while everything seems to be working fine

Eg. Everything is selling out world wide so why would they change

Cheers

Ip

 

There is more than just selling out that is a problem with that idea.

 

People would complain the WTC were forcing people to do more of their races (which would be true).

Also there is an assumption people are missing out on IMs due to poor computer skills. If someone is online ready to go when entries open I've never heard of someone missing out.

 

The races are sold a year before so you want 'fast guys' to be forced to do a half IM >12months before to prove they are fast enough to get a Kona slot? Just sounds weird.

 

People are looking for problems that aren't there.

Edited by niseko
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ThIs is a well thought out idea

I think this could work but I couldn't see WTC( usm) going to all the extra work involved while everything seems to be working fine

Eg. Everything is selling out world wide so why would they change

Cheers

Ip

 

would it mean anymore to you to place top 30 at something called Asia Pac champs than at Port? If you want to race the fats guys there are plenty at every race. There are 5 WTC IM races in Aus and NZ, plenty opportunities to go head to head with super fast people.

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There is more than just selling out that is a problem with that idea.

 

People would complain the WTC were forcing people to do more of their races (which would be true).

Also there is an assumption people are missing out on IMs due to poor computer skills. If someone is online ready to go when entries open I've never heard of someone missing out.

 

The races are sold a year before so you want 'fast guys' to be forced to do a half IM >12months before to prove they are fast enough to get a Kona slot? Just sounds weird.

 

People are looking for problems that aren't there.

 

Just to clarify - my post was a hypothetical Idea based on the topic, but will address the points you made just for fun.

 

Yes people would complain, but they complain about WTC no matter what. They have a product that people want and will pay for it. As it has been pointed out many times on here there are plenty of other options these days, so if you don't like the way WTC does business - don't do their races, simple.

 

To clarify the idea of quailifying spots would mean having reserved/priority positions for athletes that qualify means that they wouldn't have to enter a year before the IM. I.e Race and Qualify 70.3 in late 2013 (Port, Mool, Canberra etc) and there is a spot waiting for you at your IM of choice in early 2014.

You choose to enter via general entry a year out and give up your right to Kona etc, or roll the qualifying dice later in the year. Would make the racing cut throat as its qualify or miss out.

 

Not a perfect system, I agree, but I am not doing a business plan, I am just a bloke talking :shit: on a forum.

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Yes, I like the idea of allowing someone to "qualify" in a prior 70.3 & get a late entry to Port or Melbourne, but I really don't get the idea of Kona slots only for those who qualify through doing a fast race prior to the IM. If some-one is fast, and knows it, why can't they enter a year before the event and then focus on it. If you're saying that the Kona slots are all being taken by the bucket-listers, then that's a sad inditement on the serious insects.

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Yes, I like the idea of allowing someone to "qualify" in a prior 70.3 & get a late entry to Port or Melbourne, but I really don't get the idea of Kona slots only for those who qualify through doing a fast race prior to the IM. If some-one is fast, and knows it, why can't they enter a year before the event and then focus on it. If you're saying that the Kona slots are all being taken by the bucket-listers, then that's a sad inditement on the serious insects.

 

The idea is basically to have two races running concurrently. A mass participation event for those who are not likely to qualify or are not interested in going to Kona, and then the "qualified" race with sheep stations on offer for the serious insects.

As in my first post, I think if you want to represent at a World Championship you should have to jump through more than one hoop (granted it is already a bloody hard hoop to jump through - slowest 30-34 qualifier from Port 12 was 9.17ish :shock: )

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