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Tumble turns - breathing adaptation


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Tumble turns come in handy even though you don't use them in a triathlon. In a squad, having a decent turn means you can swim with people the same speed instead of having to swim down a lane. And in

Dear AP,   I too have many interests outside of triathlon, I'm sure many more than you could imagine. I have achieved highly in the things I'm serious about, triathlon isn't one of them.   For som

 

Was actually Perth World Champs in 91 1500m Jorg Hoffman would go in slightly behind Perkins and and would come out in front, John Carrue ( spelling ) actually mentioned this in the post race interview as did Mark Tonelli

 

 

Indeed, and Hoffman didn't shave down that day (inexplicably) and had a rather hirsute chest and back which would have contributed to his lack of aquadynamics off the wall.

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Thanks TrevS - You put it well.

 

Coach@ - No attitude, other than to try to hone generalised statements by a respected coach and supported fully by another. As coaches you two are probably immersed in getiing the best out of your squads - and no doubt you do that well. However, out there in the wider world are athletes of all persuasions who regard your word as gospel. Consequently, you need to be a bit more specific when you are giving advice on a contentious subject.

 

After the first 10 years in the sport you may never improve and you may have to be content with minimising the slowing process.

 

 

Sorry. I get you now. Didn't know improvement was so contentious. It is generally straight forward.

 

Your training age and kinesthetic intelligence are probably the two biggest factors.

 

My kinesthetic intelligence today is off the charts in comparison with my 23 year old self. However, the body, at 46, is only capable of limited workloads, and a reduced ability. This means performances will inevitably wane slowly. In saying that paying attention to new technologies, aero on the bike, racing nous, swimming stroke etc can all be worked on and used to gain little pieces of advantage.

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Coach@ - No attitude, other than to try to hone generalised statements by a respected coach and supported fully by another

 

It's amazing what improvement is available to athletes at all levels - in my own personal case I lowered my own 100m swim time from 1min 22sec to 1min 17sec between the ages of 58-61yrs - I did it by working closely with a coach and refining technique - I'd been a triathlete for 20yrs

 

Among the things we included as we fixed my swimming - was bi-lateral breathing - backstroke - hypoxic breathing - stroke counting - tumble turning and streamlining off the wall - lots of timed efforts - I was only swimming 3-4 times each week - for a max of 1hr per session

 

At the end of that three years I won my cat in Busso on my swim time - the guy who came in 2nd had a faster bike and run time - I took 11min off him in the swim :smile1:

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Coach@ - I wish I had some of the funny-sounding intelligence you have. I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement. You have to keep looking at small ways to improve just to stop from going backwards.

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Coach@ - I wish I had some of the funny-sounding intelligence you have. I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement. You have to keep looking at small ways to improve just to stop from going backwards.

 

 

Haha! Jon I studied a developmental theorist called Howard Gardner when doing my doctorate. He proposed a theory of "multiple intelligences" and debunked the widely accepted notion that you were either dumb or smart. Gardner says that each person is a combination of the seven - and very competent at one or two.

 

Sports people are normally very strong in bodily-kinesthetic intelligence. Have a read if you are interested.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ily-kinesthetic

 

Apart from the fact that I have 5 kids and a job - I get up every morning and train because my number one hobby is how I can continue to swim, bike, and run to the best of my ability. I love that daily challenge. When I race it normally takes me two to three days afterwards to stop analysing and processing every second of it. Then I try to do better next time. It is a passion.

 

The other thing is there is no such thing as the perfect race so lots of things can be done better as the years go by.

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Move/angle towards the centre of the lane as u approach the wall and exit on the other side.

Dont hit the wall in the left and then attempt to angle back over to the other side.

 

 

people that dont get the mathmatics behind this shit me...

 

and all people that dont tumble turn are in slower lanes so dont shit me so much...

 

ps im not a great swimmer at all but a back of the pack fast lane swimmer so suck it... possibly only upgraded to fast lane due to my tumble turning techniques in a 25m pool..

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It's more than the TT.

 

This morning as my sore knee and I were water running after swim squad, up comes a woman in the adjacent lane and executes a perfect TT.

 

Now, if she could work out that your hands enter the water outside the shoulder line on the same side, not outside the opposite shoulder, she might get somewhere. Even better if she worked out that fingers first is better than palms first with the fingers pointing upwards like a stop sign.

 

 

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Now, if she could work out that your hands enter the water outside the shoulder line on the same side, not outside the opposite shoulder, she might get somewhere. Even better if she worked out that fingers first is better than palms first with the fingers pointing upwards like a stop sign.

 

Completely irrelevant to the subject but it reminds me of a guy that swims regularly at our pool. He slaps the water every stroke - from the entry gate of the pool, you can hear if he's there - it's quite remarkable, I've never seen/heard anyone else who makes so much noise whilst swimming. He's quite slow as well - can't remember if he tumble turns :)

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I don't get the whole debate/resistance to doing them. If a gumby brick like me can get them right (most of the time) then anyone can in less than a few sessions too.

 

Every once in a while I have a crack at them, until I get water up my nose or bash a body part on concrete, then I quit. I just don't care enough. I have really crap spatial tracking, though generally I am well co-ordinated. I'm sure being coached would make a difference.

 

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Assuming your .5 of a second per lap is accurate (and I have no doubt that your estimate is scientifically tested :rolleyes: (by the Ponds Institute)), then I think I'll stick to tumble turning for the 20 seconds I can save in my squads next 1km TT - a whole length in front of where I'd be if I touch turned.

 

 

What do you win for the extra length?

 

If your tts are to track improvement and all things between each are equal (I.e. always touching or tumbling) what's the difference?

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What do you win for the extra length?

 

If your tts are to track improvement and all things between each are equal (I.e. always touching or tumbling) what's the difference?

 

 

Conor you're a bit out of touch. What happens now is to assist with course planning and water safety, all the athletes swim out to the first buoy, and then two big walls shoot up from the sea bed 50m apart, and everyone ping-pongs back and forth between them for 3.5km and then swim 150m back to shore for the transition. Works pretty well apart from being a bit squishy.

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I studied a developmental theorist called Howard Gardner when doing my doctorate. He proposed a theory of "multiple intelligences" and debunked the widely accepted notion that you were either dumb or smart. Gardner says that each person is a combination of the seven - and very competent at one or two.

 

Sports people are normally very strong in bodily-kinesthetic intelligence. Have a read if you are interested.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ily-kinesthetic

 

 

 

Thanks - the multiple intelligence theory is very interesting and credilble.

 

My personal theory is that regular exercise (with the associated extra blood flow throughout the body) assists in keeping the brain in top shape. That, in itself, may help you in your career as you age and are in competition for career advancement.

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I have finally come around to the tumble turn after stubbornly refusing for 7 years of on and off squad. Still struggling a little bit with max effort sets dealing with the resulting oxygen debt in and out of turns. Using them consistently for 95% of turns now. When I do occasionally resort back to an open turn in flat out 200 or 400's it is really evident that I am losing the gap on the swimmer behind by swimming the extra metre closer to the wall. I also seem to have to push back through my own wash which I don't do when I get under it via a flip turn. I am by no means a master yet, but with all the critics of it, I say give it a go and see for yourself. I am seeing a tangible benefit for sure. For the people going on about no benefit in open water, I am essentially practicing a gob full of water every 50m and the associated missed breathing cycle. I am a convert. Also reduces the amount of people I headbutt on the way out too which doesn't matter to me much (as a half baked Pacific Islander) but is appreciated by others.

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niseko arent you the guy that cruises a :52 easy by exhalling and inhaling above the waterline...?

 

sounds likea clever way to combine swimming and plane spotting i guess...

 

Yeah I exhale and inhale above the water line. I know it is shocking!!

 

Don't think it changes the time my head is out of the water, and I certainly can't see any airplanes, but keeping the air in my lungs for longer helps my buoyancy....I understand many won't agree with that, and that debate has been done and doubt anyone is going to change their minds.

 

 

If you want to improve you have to train

 

In order to train effectively you have to join a squad

 

 

Not sure why the first statement was called out when it's a truism, but the second statement is falsehood laid out like a truism.

 

Typical of single sports theories being transferred directly to triathlon, happens to all 3 disciplines all the time. Am sure if you want to medal in the 100m freestyle in the olympics you are better off in a squad, but not necessarily for tris.

 

My own experience is having not swam more than a few hundred metres in row before I was 35, I took up tris, went into a swim squad, (typical pool swimmer coached squad), 3-3.5kms in 90 minutes with loads of drills, emphasis on gliding, kicking and yes I got scoffed at by the coach for not tumble turning. Got very marginally better swimming 3-4x per week for 3 years, was in the 4th fastest lane. Was swimming about 1.02-5 IM time then.

 

Moved to the boondocks where there were no squads, got a good online coach and swam by myself or just with my wife for one year, no drills, no gliding, no different strokes, same volume. Just a mix of short hard efforts early in the season and longer endurance sets closer to big races. Then went back to my old swim club and was in the 2nd fastest lane (going on the 1.30) straight away. Coach couldn't work it out - as I was swimming the opposite of what he'd been telling me to do for 3 years. Still do all training by myself, and no, not cruising to 52min unfortunately, but on a par day swim 55. Not bad for my swim background and (never tumble turning) I reckon. Am guilty about not being too keen to tackle new skills unnecessarily I guess - I snowboard 40 days a year for the past 6 years and still can't ride switch.

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how about tumble turnng with a band around your ankles

 

 

Have only had sets with 4 x 50 band since seeing the light so we'll see. Pull buoy is no probs. I have to use a special Coconut Cankle band made from a penny farthing tube so it may be interesting.

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how about tumble turnng with a band around your ankles

 

I used to do it with the pull buoy, trying to make sure it didn't end up down at my ankles at the push off. At a tri squad I used to go to there was one ubber guy who would TT when doing kick sets with kickboard, and with or without flippers! And he still turned twice as fast as me with all that crap.

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Niseko... Take your point. Good story. Just a disclaimer that I don't have a squad and have zero ulterior motive.

 

 

Cheers for that.

 

That did not enter my mind. I was more charging you with being a pool-swimming-thinker than a cash grabber!

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Didn't hear about it. You'll have to fill me in.

Drownded, obviously.

 

A schoolie died in a pool in Fiji and it's believed they were playing a breath hold game. Sadly people don't seem to understand the dangers of extended breath holding, hyperventilation and sudden blackout.

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A schoolie died in a pool in Fiji and it's believed they were playing a breath hold game. Sadly people don't seem to understand the dangers of extended breath holding, hyperventilation and sudden blackout.

 

Oh, very sad.

A few years ago, I recall a kid coming in who had a fit during squad. No-one knew what happened. They were just trying to sim as far as they could on a ingle breath.

Classic shallow water blackout with a hypoxia seizure and the coach had not a clue

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Yeah I exhale and inhale above the water line. I know it is shocking!!

 

Don't think it changes the time my head is out of the water, and I certainly can't see any airplanes, but keeping the air in my lungs for longer helps my buoyancy....I understand many won't agree with that, and that debate has been done and doubt anyone is going to change their minds.

 

 

 

Not sure why the first statement was called out when it's a truism, but the second statement is falsehood laid out like a truism.

 

Typical of single sports theories being transferred directly to triathlon, happens to all 3 disciplines all the time. Am sure if you want to medal in the 100m freestyle in the olympics you are better off in a squad, but not necessarily for tris.

 

My own experience is having not swam more than a few hundred metres in row before I was 35, I took up tris, went into a swim squad, (typical pool swimmer coached squad), 3-3.5kms in 90 minutes with loads of drills, emphasis on gliding, kicking and yes I got scoffed at by the coach for not tumble turning. Got very marginally better swimming 3-4x per week for 3 years, was in the 4th fastest lane. Was swimming about 1.02-5 IM time then.

 

Moved to the boondocks where there were no squads, got a good online coach and swam by myself or just with my wife for one year, no drills, no gliding, no different strokes, same volume. Just a mix of short hard efforts early in the season and longer endurance sets closer to big races. Then went back to my old swim club and was in the 2nd fastest lane (going on the 1.30) straight away. Coach couldn't work it out - as I was swimming the opposite of what he'd been telling me to do for 3 years. Still do all training by myself, and no, not cruising to 52min unfortunately, but on a par day swim 55. Not bad for my swim background and (never tumble turning) I reckon. Am guilty about not being too keen to tackle new skills unnecessarily I guess - I snowboard 40 days a year for the past 6 years and still can't ride switch.

 

 

sounds like your very taliented with a very average swim squad coach...

one of the greatest things i hvae done is slowly move around to different squads... everybody see's different things

 

fyi if you tumbled turned you would most likley be a fast lane swimmer particually for long sets... simple maths

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Can no-one see the irony that a faster lap tme from pushing off a wall with you legs has nowt to do with Tri ?

 

 

sorry i stopped listening to you some time ago... so did everyone else it would seem...

 

as i did accidently read your post here is the summary...

 

- tumble turns are faster.. by a significant way... if your doing a 200-1000m effort it can add up to 25-50-100m's by swimming the same speed!..

- by turning faster it allows you to swim with better swimmers in a squad.. turning faster allows you to stay on peoples feet.. and also you will swim faster cycles... so dont think the time is going to just be wasted down the end of the pool...

- even if you dont swim in a squad having the ability and control of your breath for 5 sec's + and execute a tumble turn is not only a confidence thing in the pool but does equate to swimming more confidently in open water races when due to congestion or what ever reason some times breathing needs to be delayed...

 

back to the old age home

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Can no-one see the irony that a faster lap tme from pushing off a wall with you legs has nowt to do with Tri ?

 

Ken,

 

You're are basing your opinions on something you can't even do. People would view your opinions differently, if you were able to do tumble turns and you decided it wasn't for you and you went back to touch turns.

 

Maybe, just pay a little more attention to those that can do both, instead of just stubbornly rejecting what people are offering.

 

 

 

fluro

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I'm not stubbornly rejecting anything. I'm just not getting pool swimming mixed up with open water swimming.

I thought that discussions were OK. I accept that this is the intrwebz. I'm also spending too much time here at present, cos I can't train.

Edited by Ken Ho
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You're are basing your opinions on something you can't even do. People would view your opinions differently, if you were able to do tumble turns and you decided it wasn't for you and you went back to touch turns.

 

Maybe, just pay a little more attention to those that can do both, instead of just stubbornly rejecting what people are offering

 

:smile1:

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Keeping things civil, I'll try a different explanation as to my thought processes.

People are discussing swimming and tumble turning as if they are the same thing, which they are not.

Consider this analogy with tennis.

I could practice a forehand stroke until it was perfect. Will that have any benefit to my backhand or serve ? Not really. That skill needs to be practiced separately. If I put all the stokes together, then I become a good tennis player. Similarly, swimming and tumble-turning are different skills required to be a good lap swimmer. In pool based competition, that is clearly an advantage.

Th example above of Perkins beating the other guy to the wall, and the other guy beating him off it emphasizes this. Perkins is the faster swimmer in the scenario, as he keeps catching up, but not necessarily the faster lap swimmer.

Perhaps I'm too "Sheldon-like" in the way I think, but conflating (is that really a word ? I see it used on the webz all the time, but I'm not sure it's a real word) swimming with tumble turning is an error of logic.

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Even if tumble turns are marginal in terms of direct benefit to OWS, if you swim a lot in the pool just seems a natural skill to want to acquire, and in a holistic sense the different aspects mutually reinforce - the streamline thing in particular.

 

Tennis analogy might be like trying to play without an overhead volley. Sure you can, and Bjorn Borg did.

 

Anyhow, still seems pretty open as to whether in general tumbling becomes harder as get older, and of course some veterans can do them, keep doing them and even start doing them so whats up with the rest. Nope, not just attitude. Not when Mr Total Immersion says he's finding them harder with age.

 

Reckon different to running or riding as get older just slow down gradually, with tumbling there is a more discrete change. Saw something a little similar in squash where some older guys who had played national level would adapt their game to avoid peak intensities as they simply couldn't sustain, but still had endurance to handle tempo long game, so would throttle if they could.

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ffs 8 pages fella- you'd think you were talking about playing a concert piano

 

its just a fn sommersault- practice for 5 minutes when its quiet at the pool and you'll have it- it wont be awesome but it will do the job

 

for someone of your background surely you believe the principle of continuous education

 

come on Ken stop annoying the shit out of everyone and just do it fella :-)

 

i've seen totally unco-ordinated people with no swim background learn it in about 2-3 cracks :-)

 

you must be curious because if you really didnt have an interest you wouldnt crap on for 8 pages about something thats no harder than opening a tin of beans:-)

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Keeping things civil, I'll try a different explanation as to my thought processes.

People are discussing swimming and tumble turning as if they are the same thing, which they are not.

Consider this analogy with tennis.

I could practice a forehand stroke until it was perfect. Will that have any benefit to my backhand or serve ? Not really. That skill needs to be practiced separately. If I put all the stokes together, then I become a good tennis player. Similarly, swimming and tumble-turning are different skills required to be a good lap swimmer. In pool based competition, that is clearly an advantage.

Th example above of Perkins beating the other guy to the wall, and the other guy beating him off it emphasizes this. Perkins is the faster swimmer in the scenario, as he keeps catching up, but not necessarily the faster lap swimmer.

Perhaps I'm too "Sheldon-like" in the way I think, but conflating (is that really a word ? I see it used on the webz all the time, but I'm not sure it's a real word) swimming with tumble turning is an error of logic.

 

Hey Ken

I have to disagree with you. Tumble turning enables you to swim more continuously than touching before pushing off, which is a more pronounced punctuation between laps than tumble turns. Done well, tumble turns become part of the rhythm of lap swimming.

 

I think a lot of people find tumble turns a bit intimidating because tucking and flipping over seems so unlike freestyle. If done properly though the "tumble" is quick and you actually spend more time streamlined than you would with a touch and push off. My general observation of others who struggle with TTs is that they slow down coming into the wall, they don't flip over quickly enough and their streamline off the wall is a bit half-arsed. This makes the whole TT event longer and often leaves them gasping for a breath well before they've swum under the flags.

 

I don't have the years of experience that others do on this thread. This is my third year of racing Ironman and I've just moved into 50-54. However I'm a low 50's swimmer and have swum under 50 once in IM. By all means don't do them if you don't want to but I think that your tennis analogy, if applied to swimming would suggest that we should never bother doing drills because they just aren't freestyle.

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