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Going sub 10 in IM


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As the people who got to Kona at Im Oz in my AG all go faster than 10 hours (35-39) more like sub 9:45 I am looking for points of view on what does it take to become one of these people.

 

Clarify this by saying that I do my training so the get out there and train stuff does not apply. The sub 10 if it is broken down into component parts is not that amazing, but doing it together well seems impossiblle.

 

1 hour swim

5 hour 20 bike

3 hour 30 run

 

This gets you home in around 9:50, but despite all the training I'm not even close, but lots of people do it all over the world, what are they doing that I'm not

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Just throwing this out there...More like 9hrs for your AG...

 

50min swim

5hr ride

3:10 run

 

That would have gotten you roughly 2nd or 3rd this yr at IM oz.

 

Roll down spot who is going to Kona did a 9:30

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Fifer my first questions would revolve around what you have done already, ie. where are you at right now ?

 

In what discipline/s are you closest/equal to those splits ? Where are you losing the most time ?

 

In the vast majority of age groupers in IM, it is the run that causes the most problems, and exponential loss of time compared to the swim & bike.

 

Without knowing anything about your current level of ability in any of the legs, i would say 'work on your run'.

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I'd start by becoming a stronger cyclist. Build your endurance and work on your TT ability with lots of miles in the 6 months leading into the event.

 

Also build your run endurance in a similar way to a buld up to a marathon. The only difference to marathon training is that you don't necesarily need to do much speedwork.

 

Swimming regularly also helps. My belief is that having a strong bike leg is the key to getting under 10 hours. Running a sub 3:30 marathon isn't too hard either once you have built a good endurance base on the bike and run.

 

Good luck with your goal :lol:

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If you find your weaknesses, be patient in addressing these while maintaining your strengths, keep focussed, look after yourself (rest, nutrition, etc), repeat for at least three years, then you as an early 30's should be able to slip under 10.

 

I'm a big fan of Joe Friel's books. The TTB was my... bible.

 

If not you should maybe have a good frank talk with your parents about the genes they gave you...

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I'd start by becoming a stronger cyclist. Build your endurance and work on your TT ability with lots of miles in the 6 months leading into the event.

 

Also build your run endurance in a similar way to a buld up to a marathon. The only difference to marathon training is that you don't necesarily need to do much speedwork.

 

Swimming regularly also helps. My belief is that having a strong bike leg is the key to getting under 10 hours. Running a sub 3:30 marathon isn't too hard either once you have built a good endurance base on the bike and run.

 

Good luck with your goal :lol:

So you're suggesting he work on his swim/ride/run? Controversial for a triathlete! ;-)

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Fifer my first questions would revolve around what you have done already, ie. where are you at right now ?

 

In what discipline/s are you closest/equal to those splits ? Where are you losing the most time ?

 

In the vast majority of age groupers in IM, it is the run that causes the most problems, and exponential loss of time compared to the swim & bike.

 

Without knowing anything about your current level of ability in any of the legs, i would say 'work on your run'.

1 hour swim current 65 mins

5 hour 20 bike 5:45 to 6 hours on a cream puff day

3 hour 30 run 4 hours 20

 

so in terms of losing the most that's 50 minutes in running, 25 mins to 40 mins on the bike depending on how soft I am.

 

The obvious answer is bike and run more, this is where I am wondering what more I can do other than work part time, or train smarter, 4 rides and 4 runs per week. As I am so far off the target time, worrying about it is probably not the most sensible thing, but you do need long term goals

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1 hour swim

5 hour 20 bike

3 hour 30 run

 

Those are pretty much my wive's splits. Some people can just go that fast, and some can't. She did GC marathon 7 months after our third child and ran 3:20, which was only about 5 mins quicker than her IM run time. She hadn't done anything from Oct 2008 until about Feb 2010. Some people just have the ability to go moderately fast for a long time.

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1 hour swim current 65 mins

5 hour 20 bike 5:45 to 6 hours on a cream puff day

3 hour 30 run 4 hours 20

 

so in terms of losing the most that's 50 minutes in running, 25 mins to 40 mins on the bike depending on how soft I am.

 

The obvious answer is bike and run more, this is where I am wondering what more I can do other than work part time, or train smarter, 4 rides and 4 runs per week. As I am so far off the target time, worrying about it is probably not the most sensible thing, but you do need long term goals

 

Well i guess everyone has different ability but with my 2 cents...

 

I only do 3 run sessions a week. A hilly 15km run, interval work at the track which works out to 10-15km (depends on the work distances) and a 40min hill/interval session. Ran 3hrs at the great ocean road marathon (hilly course too). Can run under 4 min km for about 10km and still building my base, only started to run last november. So weather its because it comes naturally or its how i use the session I dont know. Try changing it up?

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Well i guess everyone has different ability but with my 2 cents...

 

I only do 3 run sessions a week. A hilly 15km run, interval work at the track which works out to 10-15km (depends on the work distances) and a 40min hill/interval session. Ran 3hrs at the great ocean road marathon (hilly course too). Can run under 4 min km for about 10km and still building my base, only started to run last november. So weather its because it comes naturally or its how i use the session I dont know. Try changing it up?

you are definitely giving it some intensity, do you find recovery from the track a problem. I start doing track work 8 weeks into a programme and I'm not sure that I would be able to do it for 4-5 months continuously

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Weight? Lighter usually - not always - means faster. Look to reduce your weight if you've got some to lose.

 

Lengthy background in triathlon or another sport? A consistent long term sporting history usually - not always - means an advantage over those with only a few years training. Continue to work hard, consistently and with patience.

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Weight? Lighter usually - not always - means faster. Look to reduce your weight if you've got some to lose.

 

Lengthy background in triathlon or another sport? A consistent long term sporting history usually - not always - means an advantage over those with only a few years training. Continue to work hard, consistently and with patience.

Impatience is an issue, prior to 2007 I had pretty much worked hard, done some postgrad stuff, did nthe friady smash beers into my head and played my one game of indoor soccer. If I'm being fair to myself this is year 3 in the sport, figuring that pre 2000 stuff does not count with the 7 years of work and beers.

 

Weight, 6 feet 4 80 kg generally race at 79 or 78, some to lose

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Yes i would love to but how do you get there in the first place

 

Do your easy stuff easy and your hard stuff hard. From my experience, tooling around at 32-34km/hr is a waste of time. Most of my riding was at 27-30km/hr at heart rates below 70%. At the end of the long rides however, the last 45-60 minues would often be above 'race' pace (ie above 36km/hr =5 hour split). Wind trainer sessions at hard effort were done hard, proper hard, like eye blurring and dribblingly hard. Chuck on this the ability to not slow down on a moderate pace run so run fatigued, straight off the bike. My open Marathon and IM marathon pbs are 8 minutes apart. Train for an Ironman Marathon as opposed to a Marathon. Plenty of sub 3 hour open Marathon studs trotting around slower than 4 hours in IM.

 

On top of this, a good solid year of consistent hours helps. I averaged 17 hours for the year with something like 8km swim, 280 bike and 50 odd run over the year.

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Don't waste your time reading forums and taking advice from people whom still aren't recovering from last year's kona sunburn. Unfortunately the f#ckwits on here have driven anybody that could make a worthwhile contribution away from the site.

 

Find somebody in Canberra that has qualified in your AG, shout them a coffee and sit down and get into their heads. That's where your answer is. Not in losing weight, riding 5 flat easy or blaming your parents.

 

Good luck Fifer, dream, believe, succeed.

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I love reading this stuff, it inspires me to want to get out there and do some training. Kona is a very distant dream for most, including me, I just aim to do what is possible within my ability set and training time available.

 

 

my 2c worth.

Sub 10 is a great time to aim for, its what Im going for at IMWA. I dont nor expect to get a kona spot with that time. I think id need a sub 9:15 to qualify there this year. It aint going to happen. Small steps are the way.

 

What is your IM pb now?

 

You cant expect to be knocking an hour from your time in 12 months, unless your last IM was your first.

 

disclaimer: Im a hack, im realistic and wish you all the best on getting to Kona.

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Going under 10 is not that hard, you have to get fit through consistent and solid training, no dogging sessions, good diet and recovery and not getting hung up on what others are doing. Hitting times in training is no guarantee..... just focus on getting as fit and strong as you can get and then dig on race day, leave nothing on the course.......the mental side of the day and not stopping when you want to is what gets you under 10:00. Not some magic program, worming tablets or 200k E1 bike ride.

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I love reading this stuff, it inspires me to want to get out there and do some training. Kona is a very distant dream for most, including me, I just aim to do what is possible within my ability set and training time available.

 

 

my 2c worth.

Sub 10 is a great time to aim for, its what Im going for at IMWA. I dont nor expect to get a kona spot with that time. I think id need a sub 9:15 to qualify there this year. It aint going to happen. Small steps are the way.

 

What is your IM pb now?

 

You cant expect to be knocking an hour from your time in 12 months, unless your last IM was your first.

 

disclaimer: Im a hack, im realistic and wish you all the best on getting to Kona.

11:36 at IM AZ 2008 first one of 12 months training, port was 11:40 and this had me a higher overall finish and AG finish than I did at AZ. Still way of the pace, If I went sub 10 I would be very happy but I appear to be lacking in something

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1 hour swim current 65 mins

5 hour 20 bike 5:45 to 6 hours on a cream puff day

3 hour 30 run 4 hours 20

 

11:36 at IM AZ 2008 first one of 12 months training, port was 11:40 and this had me a higher overall finish and AG finish than I did at AZ. Still way of the pace, If I went sub 10 I would be very happy but I appear to be lacking in something

 

First thing you're lacking is the confidence that it's even possible :lol:

 

Second thing lacking is a plan, which you're prepared to stick to as long as it takes :D

 

Don't waste your time reading forums and taking advice from people whom still aren't recovering from last year's kona sunburn. Unfortunately the f#ckwits on here have driven anybody that could make a worthwhile contribution away from the site.

 

Face it mate, if you could get the clues here on this forum, where many of those giving you advice, can't do it themselves, everybody would be doing it ;)

 

If you started shitting liquid for a few days, you'd go and pay for some good advice :lol:

 

If your car would not change into top gear and continued to rev around in second gear, you'd go and pay for some expert advice, wouldn't you? :blink:

 

If you turned on the water tap over the sink and got an electric shock, would you go and look up an internet forum? Or would you happily pay someone who is trained to fix those things :D

 

Some questions to ask yourself

 

* Do I really want to go to Kona, or is it just something to start a thread on?

 

* Do I really deserve to break 10hrs?

 

* Am I prepared to do what has to be done?

 

Alex did everything he had to do and reduced his time from 13.51 to 9.46 in a year, Goony did everything he had to do and is now training for his second Kona experience ;)

 

Neither of these guys found the secret on an internet site :D

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I wonder what percentage of guys who make it to Kona have a coach? Im thinking something in a vacinity of 95%, not including those lottery spot hacks.

 

What percentage would have got there without the coach? Maybe 15%, lets face it these guys are naturally talented, but need some guidance.

 

What worming tablets did they take? Combantrim

 

If you can afford it and will use the advice they are giving you, then do it, you will have a higher chance of getting there.

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I think you could learn a bit from a forum, plenty of dudes and dudettes here have made it there with different strategies.

 

Generally, if you want to do Kona, the first thing to work out is how you can maximise you chance of getting there i.e. choose a qualifier that suits your abilities.

 

Losing a bit of mass is usally a benefit unless you are already skinny.

 

Getting bike fit and well positioned on a bike to ride 180kms is a good start. From personal experience, and Ironman run split has very little to do with running ability, it has to do with finishing the bike in good shape and being in a position to run to your ability.

 

Work out the speed you need to be travelling at to achieve your magic splits and start spending as much time progressively training more and more at these speeds - don't worry too much about the distance initially, worry about the specific speed.

 

What all this means in a practical sense for those who want stuff spoon fed to them is:

 

1) work out the strategy to get a spot and establish what the likely required performance will be [example: what race, what time]

2) work out the physical speeds and skills required for each leg [example: average bike speed, climbing skills for hilly race, etc]

3) start introducing ever increasing intervals in your training at the required pace with a target of eventually achieving 65-90% of the required race day distance at the required pace [example: start riding 5 min intervals at 36kh average with longer rests].

 

If you need a coach or a bike fitting or dietician and have the money to pay for it then by all means do it but niether are things you can't work out for yourself, they might just take a lot more hit and miss doing it without experienced people to assist.

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4:20 for the run is where you are really losing it. Something is going terribly wrong if you are cranking out 3hr marathon at the GOR and then pull a 4:20. Clearly when yo uget to the run you have nothing left to give at all. So I think it is the bike that is really letting you down. You obviously can run, so that isn't the problem -do you do many brick sessions that simulate the bike to run transition? I ran jsut sub 4hr and my IM, and I considered that a terrible run (though I am happy wnough with it, I mean I was stuffed when I started the run :lol:)

 

Anyway, you and I both have a fair way to go to get to Kona :-) a coach may help if you are motivated enough. Are you willing to train hard through winter and put in 20hr+ training many weeks leading up to IM?

 

Getting to Kona is hard and there are alot of people willing to put alot of time into getting there. You have to be faster than them, so you need to have some talent (which it sounds like you do) and the determination to put in many hours, to train when others don't, to loose some social life etc.

 

Only you can decide if you want it bad enough, or if you can do the training while still keeping what is important in life important.

Edited by dazaau
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can you increase your training volume by 50 - 100% more. peepee is on the money,

 

and ratdog, you would be surprised the amount of people that getthere without a coach. the coaches wont tell you that. to be honest the coaches really only get the people in non competetive age groups to the big dance ie females. knowing quite a few of people in 18 - 40 male age groups i cant think of one that is coached, and all the people have an inate knowledge of what their bodies can do and are self motivated to do whats required.

 

as for specifics if you cant run sub 3:20 off bike, forget it. simply there are more than enough in the race that can and they will take the spots.

 

and you need to develop a massive engine. the only way to do this ride alot. anyone can ride 20hrs a week, but its near impossible to run 20hrs a week. you get fit by riding alot. this is the key to sub 10 for the average punter

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Can you swim 3.8km under 1hr at a very comfortably pace?

Can your sit on 36-38kph all day and eat well and feel fresh at the end of the ride, which needs to be at least 5hrs long

Can you run at 4:30min/k in zone 1 (good determinant of running economy to run well when tired)

Are you a consistent trainer ALL year round?

 

If your ticking off all of these then you'll have a good chance at getting to Hawaii.

 

 

fluro

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Having gone sub 10 and stumbling upon a ticket to Kona this year I'll share my views.

 

It took me at least 5 years of consistant 15-20+ hr weeks to get close to snagging a Kona ticket so settle in and don't put huge expectations on yourself. Keep doing the work and the results will come.

 

Acknowledge your weakness and work hard on it. Running is mine, I took a year to focus completely on running. Made a big difference to my triathlon times today and didn't suffer at all suprisingly during my run focus. Running is still a weakness but not the nail in the coffin it used to be.

 

I disagree with the transitions baggers. I made some reasonable improvements by listening to people on this forum. The secret is recognising who to listen to. For instance, I connected with what CEM would post and made contact with him, became friends and learnt a heap. I still use a lot of his advice in developing my own training plans today.

 

I'm not coached but have been in the past, only via the internet though which has huge restrictions. Technique for me has only ever been how I see myself in my head. Man I look good in my head, until I run past a shop window. :lol:

 

Read a lot. Plenty of good stuff and plenty of crap out there. Use your intuition and hang onto the stuff that suits what you think will work for you and your situation.

 

Finally, what PeePee said about choosing a qualifyer that suits you. Do this!!!!!

 

Set realistic goals. Achieve them, set more and remember to enjoy yourself along the way. :lol:

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lots of good tips and I'm doing most of those things, have a plan, have a coach (not in oz though more of a planner who advises), am doing more time on the bike and pumping out intervals. Training right now specifically for Shepparton prior to starting the build for Port.

 

Confidence, I don't have that mainly as I am so far from it that I don't have any right to expect it but I am confident that I will improve.

 

Patience and consistency appear to be the keys, along with a healthy does of realism. in terms of the how a lot of people were saying that swimming 5 to ten minutes faster would have a huge flow on to the rest of my race so have been focussing on this in the winter.

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Acknowledge your weakness and work hard on it. Running is mine, I took a year to focus completely on running. Made a big difference to my triathlon times today and didn't suffer at all suprisingly during my run focus.

Could you expand on this please? As in how much swim and bike did you do during that year and how much running obviously. At the end of the year did you go back to a balanced program and how long did it take you to get back to where you were in the swim and bike?

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Could you expand on this please? As in how much swim and bike did you do during that year and how much running obviously. At the end of the year did you go back to a balanced program and how long did it take you to get back to where you were in the swim and bike?

It was more like 8 months. Entered a few running races, half marathons, 15k, 10k, 8k and of course a marathon at the end of the 8 months. Running races were my important races and triathlons were just training runs for me. Still competed in tri's but took the bike leg super easy and concentrated on running well.

 

CEM laid out the running plan for me and I ran more than I have ever done in my life. Running 5 times a week and peaking out at 100km for one week. I never thought my body would handle that but it seemed to. Usual program peaks out at 70km/week in an IM lead up.

 

Riding was twice a week, one 90min ride and one 3hr ride, all at very easy pace. No bike ride was to interfere with my run training but I never felt like I lost much speed on the bike. Funny thing was I set a half IM PB in the peak of this training. This has a big impact on how I plan my training today. Running crosses over to my bike riding in a big way.

 

Swimming was 2km twice a week. If I felt like it.

 

After the marathon I targeted another IM and had a 13 minute improvement over the same course mostly from a better run. It was an experiment which worked well for me. :lol:

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It took me at least 5 years of consistant 15-20+ hr weeks to get close to snagging a Kona ticket so settle in and don't put huge expectations on yourself. Keep doing the work and the results will come.

 

If there is a secret - it's believing that you can do it - sticking at the long term plan without being swayed off the path by others - STAYING HEALTHY AND UN-INJURED (this is an area where having someone looking over your shoulder can be a big advantage)

 

I have done 33 IM races including 12 Hawaii IMs, but I still have a coach/advisor who helps me stay on track, we're still working on weaknesses - Twice a week I share my power figures for the key workouts with him. We monitor HR, cadence, against power output ------- then to gain more from these figures I have had Alex (who is a genius at analysis) look over them, to give another perspective. I also consult regularly with Jimmy C, together we shape what I have to do to get the best out of this frail old body :lol:

 

Two weeks ago I had a heme-view blood analysis, today I had a conventional blood test, I'm eleven weeks out from Hawaii, I have time to adjust diet, supplementation if necessary. :lol:

 

Every week we asses where I am, what I might need to change. All of my athletes send me a weekly report (even the guys and girls I'll see at training - it helps them to be observant) so we can do the same. The program may be a four week plan, but the adjustments can be done every week, according to changing committments, fatigue levels, any early signs of over use.

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Two weeks ago I had a heme-view blood analysis, today I had a conventional blood test,

 

Can you explain more?

 

For example are you looking for something like the Dr go, you are low in Iron so you can start popping Iron tabs and iron rich food? etc...

 

and what is heme-view

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For example are you looking for something like the Dr go, you are low in Iron so you can start popping Iron tabs and iron rich food? etc...

 

and what is heme-view

 

Heme-view is a blood test which a naturopath can give you where they take a blood drop and analyse it under a microscope, they can give you a cd of the analysis. It shows up digestive inefficiencies, blood anomalities (low iron, low on anti-oxidants, immune activity etc)

 

Conventional blood tests - can show all the normal stuff + psa levels - hormone levels - anything which may need attention - I have no adverse symptoms, I'm training and recovering well, it's just a precaution to see that everything is right while I still have time to correct any abnormalities :lol:

 

It's not a good strategy to wait until something is wrong and try to fix it in the last four weeks :lol:

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I went from 12:35 to 10:15 in a year.

 

Swim: 1:11 to 00:59.

I went to squad twice a week for 6 months + lots of the Sydney ocean swims

 

Ride: 7:15 (with a 60min mechanical problem so 6:15) to comfortable 5:09.

I rode 300km per week for 6 months followed by 350-400k/week during the 12 week prep before the race. 200k hilly commuting during the week and 100-200k on the week-end with guys that were heaps faster than I was.

 

Run: 4:15 to 4:00.

did minimal run training as I was injured to a calf.

 

Not sure if this helps, but I found that improving on the bike is the "easy" part. Compared to running, there is next to zero risk of getting injured (except for crashes...). Just ride lots of km every week for a couple of months and ride with faster guys. It hurts but you'll get faster.

 

I will aim for sub10 at busso this year.

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to most its obvious what needs to be done

 

denial,lack of holistic perspective, lack of focus, injury,distraction,lack of fun and boredom get in the way

 

KEEP IT FUN

NO SELF DENIAL and

GOOD PERSPECTIVE OF THE BIG PICTURE

 

 

are the key ingredients

 

most of us are well and truly capable

 

it really is very simple and very obvious

 

most of us need somebody to help with perspective -coached or not

 

dont train with turkeys

 

surround yourself with those who have done it and doing it- not those that "know" or theorise about it

 

take your reality check and perspective from those people and enjoy it

 

ive met too many kona people who treat their whole experience in the sport like a medical process

enjoy it. stay away from Turkeys- they are everywhere in this sport- I have never been involved in a sport with more pretenders and Turkeys in my life . Its also got some of the best people going around. Select carefully

Edited by Jimmy C
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I went from 12:35 to 10:15 in a year.

 

Swim: 1:11 to 00:59.

I went to squad twice a week for 6 months + lots of the Sydney ocean swims

 

Ride: 7:15 (with a 60min mechanical problem so 6:15) to comfortable 5:09.

I rode 300km per week for 6 months followed by 350-400k/week during the 12 week prep before the race. 200k hilly commuting during the week and 100-200k on the week-end with guys that were heaps faster than I was.

 

Run: 4:15 to 4:00.

did minimal run training as I was injured to a calf.

 

Not sure if this helps, but I found that improving on the bike is the "easy" part. Compared to running, there is next to zero risk of getting injured (except for crashes...). Just ride lots of km every week for a couple of months and ride with faster guys. It hurts but you'll get faster.

 

I will aim for sub10 at busso this year.

 

Nice work Will,

 

In summary work works. It's the consistency of training all year round that trumps anything else. You can't get good in 12 weeks, after being a couch potato for 6months, unless your an ex-pro perhaps :lol:

 

When you look at Wellington race results in 2008 and 2009 she did 3 x IM's each year and if you tack on a 12 week IM specific plan in front of those races it means for 36 weeks of the year she is IM training. In that program there is probably nothing completely over the top, just consistent hard work all year round.

 

Like Will points out, he rode 300km per week for 6months, and it's THOSE 300km each week that enable to him to put together an IM plan of 12 weeks that he can handle= 350-400km

 

It's so simple on paper, but rarely executed well in practice.

 

 

fluro

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