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Protein Supplementation


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A friend of mine took up cycling about 2 years ago and has made great progress road racing... A big part of his success probably comes from training, but he also swears by the protein supplements he has been taking for the last 9 months...

 

He takes a protein supplement distributed by GNC - PVL Hydroflow XP3 which is basically a whey protein isolate. He takes a single serve each night and a serve after any big training sessions (>3hrs). Each serve yields 24g of protein.

 

Not sure if it's the protein or just genetics, but his muscular development has been pretty impressive and he has developed into a very strong rider... He noticed a difference in muscular development pre and post using the supplement.

 

Of course, this is a sample size of one.

 

My starting viewpoint is that protein supplementation is unnecessary if you are eating a balanced diet with sufficient calories. However, chatting to my mate got me thinking. I eat a largely vegetarian diet and therefore probably eat a little less protein than the average person. I'm wondering whether I would benefit from mild protein supplementation. He is taking 24g of protein a day extra which is not an absurd amount of supplementation and unlikely to pose a health risk if training sufficiently.

 

So, in a nutshell, opening up to a debate on the pros and cons (is it all just a con?) of protein supplementation?

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I use the ASN protein powder and have found it to be one of the best out there.....the taste takes some getting used too though. 1 scope within 10mins of finishing every session. I'll have another one at night only if I'm loosing too much weight.

 

I think I remember reading a good article on the Hammer website about protein supplementation.

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I actually did a search and found a thread from Apr this year which covered lots of good ground:

Protein Supplementation thread

 

Good reading there as a grounding... Should have searched first!

 

However, interesting that you think he should up his dose. One of my real concerns with protein is that eating too much can cause a whole lot of health issues - probably the most common are loss of bone mass/density (calcium depletion) and related kidney stones...

 

I'll probably give it a go - what sort of time period do you think I need to supplement for to determine whether it works or not? I'm thinking somewhere around six weeks.

 

GJ.

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I'll have another one at night only if I'm loosing too much weight.

 

Not a problem for me... My body is one of those that grabs the calories and holds onto them for dear life...

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Guest Chookster

Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

You can't store protein so what you don't use will be converted and stored as fat. If you don't get enough, at best your recovery is hampered and at worst your body canabilises your muscles for protein.

 

From what i understand, protein is always best from animal sources as it has the right mix of amino acids. Nuts are good, supplements are good, but i'd be trying to get your requirements from your diet before you think about supplements.

 

I think the requirement for endurance athletes is somewhere around 1.5g-2g/kg body weight per day

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Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

 

239822[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix. It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches. I use the Heed product for hydration. I have the Perpetuem (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

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Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

 

239822[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix. It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches. I use the Heed product for hydration. I have the Perpetuem (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

 

239828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

There also used to be this group of 'experts' who firmly believed the world was flat........ :lol:

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So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

 

 

There are many right ways, and many wrong ways, not everyone who disagrees with you is a "fool" :lol::lol:

 

Although there is no shortage of them out there :D

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10 are essential and must be taken in with diet

 

i use Blanace 100% protein. Choc or Vanilla flavour. Very nice as a smoothy!

 

Make sure you get a 100% protein one that has been untra filtered or something like that. I dont quite remember the resons behind it, but it was the best stuff according to the misses. (natruopath-nutritionist)

 

Protein isnt solely used for muscle repair/growth

also used for

Enzymes

Transportation

Antibodies

Clotting factors

Hormones

Muscle fibres

Structural components of cells

 

proteins \re metablised into amino acids- oxidised to make ATP or used to build other proteins.

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So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

 

 

There are many right ways, and many wrong ways, not everyone who disagrees with you is a "fool" :lol::D

 

Although there is no shortage of them out there :D

 

239840[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

That's the conclusion I came to as well. I find a lot of his articles a little 'my way or the highway' :lol:

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I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix.  It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches.  I use the Heed product for hydration.  I have the Perpetuem  (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

 

239828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Great topic! And you're right FP, Recoverite is a 3:1 ratio of complex carbohydrates and whey protein isolate. Each 2-scoop serving also contains 3 grams of glutamine, which has numerous benefits.

 

Dr. Bill Misner, the recently retired head of Hammer Nutrition's R&D, wrote a couple protein-specific articles that some (hopefully most!) of you may find interesting and useful...

 

How much protein is required for endurance exercise?

www.hammernutrition.com/za/ECP?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2892

 

"How do the experts rate anabolic Whey and Soy proteins?"

www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/Jan05.pdf

 

Other information that I had on file from Dr. Misner that I think you'd be interested in...

 

What is the maximum amount of protein that should be consumed in a single meal?

The following distinguished sport scientists graciously provided answers to this question:

 

Professor Mel Williams Ph.D.:

"Normally about 95 percent of the protein delivered to the intestines is absorbed, mostly via specific amino acid pathways and also as dipeptides and tripeptides. In general, animal protein is believed to be better absorbed than plant protein, but nitrogen balance studies show NO differences between the two sources over time. Preparation of food, such as the Maillard reaction, may possibly reduce the digestion of protein, thus reducing its biological value. As noted in Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease (Chapter 43, page 683)** studies have focused mainly on the total amount of protein absorbed rather than on the rate of absorption and how it may be modified."

** Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease @

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi...000004/art00013

Mel Williams, Ph.D.

Professor Emeritus, Exercise Science

Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA 23529.

 

Professor Michael J. Rennie Ph.D.:

"Actually absorption is NEVER limiting for amino acid and protein use since digestion/absorption is normally 80-95% for most proteins except cereals. The optimum range per meal is VERY hard to know. I doubt if anyone has really looked at it except Joe Millward. I attach a draft chapter he has written about protein requirements. His stuff on single meal PPU may help. The key is satisfying energy requirements which will be proportional to physical activity. If a person does that, protein requirements will be satisfied w/ 10-15% of all food is protein."

Professor Dr. Michael J Rennie, Ph.D. F.R.S.E.

Symers Professor of Physiology

University of Dundee

Division of Molecular Physiology

School of Life Sciences

Old Medical School

Dundee DD1 4HN Scotland UK

 

Professor Kevin Tipton Ph.D.:

"Any projection I could give would not be based on direct evidence, but only speculation. There are so many variables that would impact the optimal range for a single ingestion, e.g. age, health, fitness of the ingester, type of protein, what is eaten in the meal with the protein, exercise prior to or following the ingestion and on and on. Generally, 30-50 grams sounds reasonable to me. Sorry, I can't be more helpful, but I don't feel the research would back anything more specific."

Professor Kevin Tipton, Ph.D.

Assistant Professor

Department of Surgery

University of Texas

Medical Branch Metabolism

Shriner's Hospital for Children

 

Professor Luc van Loon Ph.D.:

"At 30-50 grams for a single meal for example is quite large, normally one could image that steak, potatoes and vegetables in an average meal can sum up to about 15-20 grams of protein. A (normal or not-fully-over-the-top) bodybuilder will take up to about 20-30 grams for a protein shake post-exercise, which is tolerated well but still a huge amount compared to the actual needs within such a limited time frame. At a normal protein intake for a highly trained athlete, an amount of 1.5-2.0 g/kg/day should be way more than actual protein need, or about 100-150 gram a day. The latter would (in case of an athlete) be divided over ~6 meals during the day. We have provided subjects with 0.2 g/kg/h for a period of 6 hours with drinks provided every 30 min, which was tolerated quite well. (0.2*6*75=90 gram within 6 hours). There are several reasons to speculate that several small doses throughout the day by way of multiple meals would be preferred. First of all to ensure a supraoptimal load of amino acids as precursors for protein synthesis (so amino acid availability will not be limiting) will occur throughout the day. Second, speculations that temporary increases in essential amino acids concentrations in the circulation may act as an anabolic signal. Third, that combination of protein and carbohydrate increases insulin production, which stimulates amino acid import and also stimulates protein synthesis. An ideal amount is not available; I would suggest 15-20 gram per meal, and several small meals a day. Preferably some needs to be consumed within the first 2 hours post-exercise. As such I would not advice to take one load (see above)."

Professor Luc van Loon

Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM)

Department of Human Biology

Maastricht University

Maastricht, The Netherlands.

 

COMMENT: Protein digestion generally occurs at least 80% of the protein consumed in one meal. This answer is not specifically identified in research. Protein metabolism starts in the stomach and ends in the lower bowel from 24-72 hours after the meal. For a single meal to impact optimal protein uptake, a small 20 to as much as 50 grams protein is acceptable but so is a larger portion (75-150 grams) if circumstances merit over a 24-hour period. There are times when time may prevent eating more than once per day. However, most athletes consume 2-3 meals per day that total 1.4-1.5 g protein per kg bodyweight. Colgan’s Optimum Sports Nutrition recommends consuming protein into smaller portions in order to create optimal protein-to-muscle effects without creating excess ammonia, digestive stress, or overtaxing the liver and kidneys.

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Hammer Steve,

 

The Perpeteum orange vanilla - personally i think it tastes horrible. I have two buckets of the stuff. :lol:

 

can i mix cordial with it to make it drinkable?

 

Or should i mix another drink powder that i like with it?

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Ok, so next question is recommendation for when to take the supplement. My mate takes it at night and after big training sessions...

 

Any views on ideal time of day to take it, other than after a key training session?

 

GJ.

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Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

The protein is a tricky question BUT I did want to make a comment on the issue related to endurance athletes about insufficient fat intake. This may be the case for some endurance athletes (as Tullo has stated); however, in the two studies we have done on the very specialised populations of Ironman triathletes we have not found this at all. In a really good cross section of triathletes both recreation and 'pro' they were absolutely getting enough fat and in particular saturated fats in many cases were well over what is considered a healthy level.

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Guest Chookster
Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

 

239822[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix. It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches. I use the Heed product for hydration. I have the Perpetuem (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

 

239828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Umm, no, not unless he has quoted figures of less than 1.5g/kg per day as being adequate. If you do an analysis of what you eat daily, it can often be a wake up call. Rod Cedaro still thinks fluro green running shorts are fashionable so can you really believe anything he says? :lol:

 

Remember, the same experts led many of us to this obsession with high carb/ low fat diets. The so called 'experts' recommended less than 15% fat, 70% or more carbs. Everyone ate shitloads of pasta, rice, potato wholegrain cereals, bananas etc, yet it's pretty common knowledge now that many of these foods are extremely high on the GI scale, and put your blood sugar levels on a huge rollercoaster ride. A few common problems with low fat, low protein, high carb diets is that you are constantly hungry, and your body never learns to burn fat as fuel. Too much info to go into much depth.

 

The old cliche' "you are what you eat" is to a great extent misleading and should binned along with Rod's Fluro shorts!

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Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

 

239822[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix. It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches. I use the Heed product for hydration. I have the Perpetuem (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

 

239828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Umm, no, not unless he has quoted figures of less than 1.5g/kg per day as being adequate. If you do an analysis of what you eat daily, it can often be a wake up call. Rod Cedaro still thinks fluro green running shorts are fashionable so can you really believe anything he says? :lol:

 

Remember, the same experts led many of us to this obsession with high carb/ low fat diets. The so called 'experts' recommended less than 15% fat, 70% or more carbs. Everyone ate shitloads of pasta, rice, potato wholegrain cereals, bananas etc, yet it's pretty common knowledge now that many of these foods are extremely high on the GI scale, and put your blood sugar levels on a huge rollercoaster ride. A few common problems with low fat, low protein, high carb diets is that you are constantly hungry, and your body never learns to burn fat as fuel. Too much info to go into much depth.

 

The old cliche' "you are what you eat" is to a great extent misleading and should binned along with Rod's Fluro shorts!

 

239899[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Understood. I wasn't agreeing with him at all, it's just that it seems to be written in such an aggresive way, i was surprised. The whole article had this kind of attitude

 

'look, this is correct because I say so' :lol:

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Guest Chookster
Fact: most endurance athletes don't get enough protein - or fat for that matter but that's another story.

 

 

239822[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So you're disagreeing with Rod Cedaro in TMSM then? He says in this months mag that athletes who increase their protein intake to a large degree compared with non-athletes are 'fools'.

 

I don't have an opinion either way but was very impressed with the Hammer presentation and use their stuff (Recoverite) for recovery. I think it's 3-1 mix. It has drastically reduced my post ride headaches. I use the Heed product for hydration. I have the Perpetuem (fuel) but haven't used it yet.

 

239828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Umm, no, not unless he has quoted figures of less than 1.5g/kg per day as being adequate. If you do an analysis of what you eat daily, it can often be a wake up call. Rod Cedaro still thinks fluro green running shorts are fashionable so can you really believe anything he says? :lol:

 

Remember, the same experts led many of us to this obsession with high carb/ low fat diets. The so called 'experts' recommended less than 15% fat, 70% or more carbs. Everyone ate shitloads of pasta, rice, potato wholegrain cereals, bananas etc, yet it's pretty common knowledge now that many of these foods are extremely high on the GI scale, and put your blood sugar levels on a huge rollercoaster ride. A few common problems with low fat, low protein, high carb diets is that you are constantly hungry, and your body never learns to burn fat as fuel. Too much info to go into much depth.

 

The old cliche' "you are what you eat" is to a great extent misleading and should binned along with Rod's Fluro shorts!

 

239899[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Understood. I wasn't agreeing with him at all, it's just that it seems to be written in such an aggresive way, i was surprised. The whole article had this kind of attitude

 

'look, this is correct because I say so' :lol:

 

239909[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

That's Cedaro for you! BTW, I think his Mag is crap! just a lot of pretty advertising pictures and pictures of himself.

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That's Cedaro for you! BTW, I think his Mag is crap! just a lot of pretty advertising pictures and pictures of himself.

 

Again agreed. Not quite sure what made me buy it. Must've been a lck of cycling and guitar mags around :lol:

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So who is right?? AP??

 

 

 

Colgan’s Optimum Sports Nutrition recommends consuming protein into smaller portions in order to create optimal protein-to-muscle effects without creating excess ammonia, digestive stress, or overtaxing the liver and kidneys

 

 

Michael Colgan has forgotton more about nutrition than RC ever knew :lol::lol:

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Hammer Steve,

 

The Perpeteum orange vanilla - personally i think it tastes horrible. I have two buckets of the stuff. :lol:

 

can i mix cordial with it to make it drinkable?

 

Or should i mix another drink powder that i like with it?

 

239881[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Hi Will -

 

Apologies for the tardy reply... I remembered that you had asked this question on a much earlier post but I had forgotten to reply to you.

 

As far as the taste of Perpetuem - or any other drink, bar, or gel for that matter - it's always going to be a subjective, personal preference thing. More precisely, a lot of athletes really like the flavour of Perpetuem, for some it's an acquired taste, while others don't care for it at all and probably never will. And that's totally fine because I'm guessing that no company is ever going to make a flavoured sports drink or gel that everyone is going to like... that's just the way it is so no worries on your not liking the flavour of Perpetuem.

 

Anyway, one of my personal dislikes is having to drink so much fluid volume of flavoured anything. In other words, even though I like the flavour of Perpetuem, I really don't want to drink a full bidon of the stuff hour after hour after hour. I absolutely prefer fulfilling my calorie requirements from as small a fluid volume as possible so I make multi-hour bidons of Perpetuem. For example, if I'm doing a 4-hour training session I'll make an 8-scoop bidon of Perpetuem. That way, because I have 4 hours of fuel in the bidon, I only have to drink 1/4 of that bidon every hour.

 

Also, because this concentrated bidon of fuel doesn't have much actual fluid in it (at least not a significant amount over the course of 4 hours) I don't count it towards my hydration requirements; I'll fulfill that from a separate bidon using plain water. I prefer doing this because I like the taste (or non-taste) of water to cleanse the palate and quench my thirst.

 

Lastly, I think this "multi-hour bidon" method makes things a lot easier logistically because you don't have to stop so often to make more fuel; you can easily make 3-5 hours worth of fuel in one bidon.

 

The other thing the multi-hour bidon of Perpetuem does is enhance the flavour of the product and it does this, of course, because it's been made much more concentrated. Now, that could make things worse for you in regards to the flavour but it might make it more palatable. Give it a try and see if that makes things better taste-wise for you. If nothing else, because you've made a multi-hour bidon of the product you don't have to drink so much volume of flavoured liquid every hour... I personally would find that to be beneficial.

 

As far as adding cordial to the product I would suggest against it. The reason for this is because of the simple sugars that are comprised in a cordial (I looked at the Nutrition Facts for one that I found online and one serving contains 8.2 grams of carbohydrates, all of which are from sugar) and the incompatibility of these one- or two-chain sugars and complex carbohydrates in regards to efficient digestion. When simple sugars are comsumed in too-high concentrations and/or when they are combined with or consumed within close proximity with complex carbohydrates, digestion rates are slowed, due to the increased osmolality of the solution. Thus, the potential for any number of stomach-related maladies increases. Will this happen to you? Perhaps not but chances are that it will and that (stomach problems) is something I'd like you to not have to deal with.

 

I believe a better alternative would be to mix in some orange Hammer Gel or the mandarin orange HEED with Perpetuem. Because you're combining products that are comprised of complex carbohydrates only (no added simple sugars) they are much more compatible in the digestive juices than the combination of a simple sugar carbohydrate source (a cordial) and a complex carbohydrate source (Perpetuem). All our products are completely compatible so if you mix HEED or Hammer Gel with Perpetuem you won't have any digestion delays, which minimizes-to-eliminates the potential for stomach distress. By the way, Hammer Gel does dissolve completely in solution so you shouldn't have any issues there.

 

I hope that helps Will but please feel free to email me directly (sborn@hammernutrition.com) if you need more clarification or have additional questions.

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Hammer Steve,

 

The Perpeteum orange vanilla - personally i think it tastes horrible. I have two buckets of the stuff. :lol:

 

can i mix cordial with it to make it drinkable?

 

Or should i mix another drink powder that i like with it?

 

239881[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Hi Will -

 

Apologies for the tardy reply... I remembered that you had asked this question on a much earlier post but I had forgotten to reply to you.

 

As far as the taste of Perpetuem - or any other drink, bar, or gel for that matter - it's always going to be a subjective, personal preference thing. More precisely, a lot of athletes really like the flavour of Perpetuem, for some it's an acquired taste, while others don't care for it at all and probably never will. And that's totally fine because I'm guessing that no company is ever going to make a flavoured sports drink or gel that everyone is going to like... that's just the way it is so no worries on your not liking the flavour of Perpetuem.

 

Anyway, one of my personal dislikes is having to drink so much fluid volume of flavoured anything. In other words, even though I like the flavour of Perpetuem, I really don't want to drink a full bidon of the stuff hour after hour after hour. I absolutely prefer fulfilling my calorie requirements from as small a fluid volume as possible so I make multi-hour bidons of Perpetuem. For example, if I'm doing a 4-hour training session I'll make an 8-scoop bidon of Perpetuem. That way, because I have 4 hours of fuel in the bidon, I only have to drink 1/4 of that bidon every hour.

 

Also, because this concentrated bidon of fuel doesn't have much actual fluid in it (at least not a significant amount over the course of 4 hours) I don't count it towards my hydration requirements; I'll fulfill that from a separate bidon using plain water. I prefer doing this because I like the taste (or non-taste) of water to cleanse the palate and quench my thirst.

 

Lastly, I think this "multi-hour bidon" method makes things a lot easier logistically because you don't have to stop so often to make more fuel; you can easily make 3-5 hours worth of fuel in one bidon.

 

The other thing the multi-hour bidon of Perpetuem does is enhance the flavour of the product and it does this, of course, because it's been made much more concentrated. Now, that could make things worse for you in regards to the flavour but it might make it more palatable. Give it a try and see if that makes things better taste-wise for you. If nothing else, because you've made a multi-hour bidon of the product you don't have to drink so much volume of flavoured liquid every hour... I personally would find that to be beneficial.

 

As far as adding cordial to the product I would suggest against it. The reason for this is because of the simple sugars that are comprised in a cordial (I looked at the Nutrition Facts for one that I found online and one serving contains 8.2 grams of carbohydrates, all of which are from sugar) and the incompatibility of these one- or two-chain sugars and complex carbohydrates in regards to efficient digestion. When simple sugars are comsumed in too-high concentrations and/or when they are combined with or consumed within close proximity with complex carbohydrates, digestion rates are slowed, due to the increased osmolality of the solution. Thus, the potential for any number of stomach-related maladies increases. Will this happen to you? Perhaps not but chances are that it will and that (stomach problems) is something I'd like you to not have to deal with.

 

I believe a better alternative would be to mix in some orange Hammer Gel or the mandarin orange HEED with Perpetuem. Because you're combining products that are comprised of complex carbohydrates only (no added simple sugars) they are much more compatible in the digestive juices than the combination of a simple sugar carbohydrate source (a cordial) and a complex carbohydrate source (Perpetuem). All our products are completely compatible so if you mix HEED or Hammer Gel with Perpetuem you won't have any digestion delays, which minimizes-to-eliminates the potential for stomach distress. By the way, Hammer Gel does dissolve completely in solution so you shouldn't have any issues there.

 

I hope that helps Will but please feel free to email me directly (sborn@hammernutrition.com) if you need more clarification or have additional questions.

 

240009[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

One of the guys in our club is racing ironman like this, concentrated perpetuem in the front bidon and thats his food for the day (and he marks his bidon so he knows what to consume every hour), heed in the opposite bidon, then two bidons of water behind/ under his saddle.

Edited by gimili9
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