14 Hr IM Cutoff almost confirmed for US events

[Peter 4,248]

WTC have been suggesting that they are about to introduce a shorter cutoff in the US mainland events.

 

Other countries have shorter cutoffs and WTC are suggesting so do they in the US.

 

Japan has a 15 hour cutoff (I know it's not 17)

France is 15 too I think.

Forster was 15.30.

 

Personally I think it's okay at 17 hours.

[A Zed 14]

why change it?

[Brick 11]

why change it?

 

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I agree.

[Mr Flower 378]

At Forster, I always stayed back and cheered home the last competitor. It was a tradition. It was great to do and adds to the atmosphere. The race would finish at about 9:30 pm.

 

This year at Port, I did not do it. The race was due to finish at 11 (or later) and there was no way I could stay upright or awake for that long. Not sure what the others felt.

 

I think 15 hours is plenty of time to finish an Ironman.

[Ronnie 131]

I'm always going to be a slow poke and I think 15 hours is enough.

[Kamal2 228]

Hmmm...if I did another IM, I might struggle with the 14...but essentially agree with Mr. Flower's comments above, 15 is ok.

[-- AJ -- 553]

At the risk of repeating myself...

[Tilly 1]

Not too fussed what it is, but surely standardising it across all Ironman events would make sense?

[Guzz 8]

As a BOPer, sure I'm biased, what is to gain by changing it from 17 to 15 (or less)?

 

It probably goes without saying but the people that have voted to reduce it are most likely able to finish well under either cutoff (17 or 15).

 

So what do you care if others are out there longer, perhaps heaps longer?

 

How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and someone wanted to reduce it to below your typical finish time, say introduce a 12 hours cutoff?

 

Leave it as it is....

[Guzz 8]

Not too fussed what it is, but surely standardising it across all Ironman events would make sense?

 

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17 hours was intoduced as the standard at Hawaii after the event had been run for a couple of years. Subsequent events elsewhere like NZ also adopted this making it the standard. 7am start - Midnight cutoff.

 

Other events such as Forster had a different (non standard?) cutoff (and start time for that matter) due to their own circumstances.

 

Agreed a standardised time across all events would be ideal - shouldn't the non-standard events be aligned with the 17 hour standard to achieve this though, not the other way around?

[A Zed 14]

So what do you care if others are out there longer, perhaps heaps longer?

 

 

Does any more need to be said, or is it going to come back to the slow people just shouldnt be out there again.

[Geoff Dickson 2]

This will affect the older triathlete (i.e. 60+) more than anyone else....

[Guzz 8]

I'm always going to be a slow poke and I think 15 hours is enough.

 

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Hey Ronnie - noticed you mentioned Tracey Richardson in your signature.

 

FYI...Tracey did a 15:46 in NZ '04 and 15:17 in Hawaii '05.

[Slowman 352]

I say make it 11hrs! Forget the roots of IM and go gung ho, go hard or go home!

 

And then 10 years later make the cut off 10hrs and years after that when I'm telling my grandchildren that I'd done a few IMs they will either think I must have been OK or they will ask me what is an IM and why don't they have them anymore.

 

I believe the reason there is massive support (well apparently) for IM in the US is because of the finish time. People will risk the money it costs if they believe they will finish. Lower the finish time and the risk goes up and there will be less takers - maybe that is the desired effect but it would seem more sensible to just keep expanding the "market" by putting on more races up to a point.

[blocker 0]

This will affect the older triathlete (i.e. 60+) more than anyone else....

 

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and women.

[Mr Flower 378]

Sometimes we have to think of others. What about all the volunteers out on the run course and the race officials. Is it worth for them to be out past 10:00pm in the cold night for maybe 10-20 people.

 

I am not knocking the back of packers, I am just saying that 15 or 15:30 should be enough for the vast majority of BOPers to finish and it gives them a goal to push towards. Of course, I do feel sorry for the 60+ men and women as then I do believe that 15 may be a bit tough.

[Guzz 8]

Based on Port Mac 06, the following statistics are for 15+ hr finishers:

 

Female

--------

18-24: 1

25-29: 1

30-34: 6

35-39: 5

40-44: 3

45-49: 1

50-54: 5

55-59: 1

60-64: 1

 

Male

-----

30-34: 3

35-39: 8

40-44: 8

45-49: 9

50-54: 2

55-59: 6

60-64: 1

65-69: 1

70-74: 1

 

Total of 63.

 

The reality is that whilst women and 60+ men would be impacted, the largest number of competitors impacted would best be classed as middle age men. But lets not let the facts get in the way.....

Edited October 31, 2006 by cpg

[rosie 0]

Based on Port Mac 06, the following statistics are for 15+ hr finishers:

 

Female

--------

18-24: 1

25-29: 1

30-34: 6

35-39: 5

40-44: 3

45-49: 1

50-54: 5

55-59: 1

60-64: 1

 

Male

-----

30-34: 3

35-39: 8

40-44: 8

45-49: 9

50-54: 2

55-59: 6

60-64: 1

65-69: 1

70-74: 1

 

Total of 63.

 

The reality is that whilst women and 60+ men would be impacted, the largest number of competitors impacted would best be classed as middle age men.  But lets not let the facts get in the way.....

 

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....and lets not forget that at Forster in 2004 the women had the fastest average run time. 'nuff said.

[garf 24]

cpq,

What proportion of entries in each age division were out there past 15hrs?

Some of those age categories have only a handful of entries, so there is the possibility that 20-50% of some categories would not make the cutoff?

 

The limit will always be somewhat arbitrary.

[CEM 251]

I recall a recent thread / article / something about the number of people in USA (where article originated) who enter an IM with little chance of finishing it... leading to high rates of DNFs.

 

I think the point of the article was that these people don't appreciate the challenge of IM and are/were taking away spots from others capable of finishing.

[Guzz 8]

cpq,

What proportion of entries in each age division were out there past 15hrs?

Some of those age categories have only a handful of entries, so there is the possibility that 20-50% of some categories would not make the cutoff?

 

The limit will always be somewhat arbitrary.

 

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Good question...my excel skills aren't that flash, but I'll try and work it out.

[Slowman 352]

I recall a recent thread / article / something about the number of people in USA (where article originated) who enter an IM with little chance of finishing it... leading to high rates of DNFs.

 

Interesting if it is true. I've never checked but I didn't think the DNF rate was any worse than ours, but it should be easy enough to check. If I get the time I will.

 

From a pure business point of view, these DNFers are "easy money", they pay, they quit and everyone goes home early, it's those stubborn characters that won't give up keeping everyone up .

[Guzz 8]

Based on Port Mac 06, the following statistics are for 15+ hr finishers:

 

Female

--------

18-24: 1 of 8 - 12.5%

25-29: 1 of 40 - 2.5%

30-34: 6 of 59 - 10.16%

35-39: 5 of 47 - 10.64%

40-44: 3 of 38 - 7.89%

45-49: 1 of 17 - 5.88%

50-54: 5 of 19 - 26.13%

55-59: 1 of 5 - 20%

60-64: 1 of 1 - 100%

 

Total Women - 24 of 234 - 10.26%

 

Male

-----

18-24: 0 of 37 - 0%

25-29: 0 of 140 - 0%

30-34: 3 of 235 - 1.28%

35-39: 8 of 263 - 3.04%

40-44: 8 of 205 - 3.90%

45-49: 9 of 178 - 5.06%

50-54: 2 of 73 - 2.74%

55-59: 6 of 36 - 16.67%

60-64: 1 of 7 -14.28%

65-69: 1 of 3 - 33.33%

70-74: 1 of 1 - 100%

 

Total Men - 39 of 1178 - 3.31%

 

Total of 63 of 1412 - 4.46%

 

Some interesting observations:

* Women are more likely than men to finish in over 15 hours (higher % in every AG)

* The oldest AG for each gender was 100% 15+

* A very low percentage of the total field finishes in 15+

 

FYI

* Stats are Age Groupers only and exclude PRO and CEO categories. DNFs are also not included.

* These stats are the Port Mac IM 06 - be intersting to see if there is a trend with other 17 hour events.

[Ruley 819]

for all those middle aged guys out there who are whinging, spend less time on here working those fingers and spend some more time doing some brisk walk training so that after a 1:30 swim, 7 hour bike, ~26-27km/h) you have 5.5 hours to complete 42.2km if its at 14hours and 6.5 hours if its 15 hours. sure your day can go pear shaped and u may not run all the way or even much of the way, but sometimes you wonder whether some people start out not even planning or training to run any of the way. 5.5 hours means you only have to cover 7.7km/h, an average walk is 5km/h, 6 minute km's jogging are 10km/h. 6.5 hours for the marathon is 6.5km/h, the pace of a brisk walk. If the idea of swimming, riding, and RUNNING is too scarey for you, why are you doing this sport? if your not prepared enough do a shorter race.

its not so much of an issue in australia because of the qualifying series but a bit bigger one in the US where events sell out in 24 hours with a large proportion of people doing the one race to tick it off their list with no intention of really preparing or doing anything more than drifting, coasting and strolling.

 

edited for typo

Edited October 31, 2006 by Ruley

[-- AJ -- 553]

Gee excuse me for being slow

[Peter 4,248]

Gee excuse me for being slow

 

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Have you done an IM yet AJ?

[-- AJ -- 553]

Have you done an IM yet AJ?

 

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Gees Blew if you're going to take K2s place you better get a copy of his CIA dossiers.

 

As most people will tell you I did IMNZ in 2001. 1:12/6:55/5:30 for a touch under 14 hours. If they'd offered me a 5:30 marathon when I got off the bike, I'd have taken it with both arms. I was planning 5 hours but expecting 6+. I am a crap runner.

 

In fact I'm such a crap runner that I'm seriously considering learning how to powerwalk because I reckon I'd probably be better off power walking because it would be faster.

[u_quality 0]

WTC have been suggesting that they are about to introduce a shorter cutoff in the US mainland events.

 

Other countries have shorter cutoffs and WTC are suggesting so do they in the US.

 

Japan has a 15 hour cutoff (I know it's not 17)

France is 15 too I think.

Forster was 15.30.

 

Personally I think it's okay at 17 hours.

 

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Where has this been suggested? 15 seems reasonable... and I'm a 10-11 guy...

[Guzz 8]

What next? Yellow and Red cards for people who dare to walk during the marathon? If you are caught walking more than once, you are auotmatically disqualified?

 

I wonder how all you 'elite' people would react if they suddenly wanted to introduce a cut off that was less than your normal time? I suspect you wouldn't take too kindly! And why should they stop at 14 - surely if you take more than 10 you mustn't be living IM 24 x 7 and have no right to be there!

 

At the end of the day, performance is relative anyway - there will always be someone much quicker than you and much slower than you. Whats to say that your performance is the 'correct' one anyway?

 

Each to his own I reckon. Hats off to the super fit/talented athletes that sacrifice a lot to be able to race the event in sensational times. Kudos too for the BOPers who have the heart and determination to stay out there 7 or 8 hours longer than the absolute guns (and are lucky to complete the bike before the pros complete the race). They are just as entitled to making their dreams a reality as everyone else.

 

ABove all else, respect the dreams and ambitions of others - not everyone does this for the same reason and is looking to get the same out of it! We are not all trying to win our Age Group at Hawaii

 

One final thought, John Collins once said - "Swim 3.8km, Ride 180, Run 42 and brag for the rest of your life!" No mention of time limits, being better than everyone else etc.

[Ruley 819]

What next?  Yellow and Red cards for people who dare to walk during the marathon?  If you are caught walking more than once, you are auotmatically disqualified?

 

I wonder how all you 'elite' people would react if they suddenly wanted to introduce a cut off that was less than your normal time?  I suspect you wouldn't take too kindly!  And why should they stop at 14 - surely if you take more than 10 you mustn't be living IM 24 x 7 and have no right to be there!

 

At the end of the day, performance is relative anyway - there will always be someone much quicker than you and much slower than you.  Whats to say that your performance is the 'correct' one anyway?

 

Each to his own I reckon.  Hats off to the super fit/talented athletes that sacrifice a lot to be able to race the event in sensational times.  Kudos too for the BOPers who have the heart and determination to stay out there 7 or 8 hours longer than the absolute guns (and are lucky to complete the bike before the pros complete the race).  They are just as entitled to making their dreams a reality as everyone else.

 

ABove all else, respect the dreams and ambitions of others - not everyone does this for the same reason and is looking to get the same out of it!  We are not all trying to win our Age Group at Hawaii

 

One final thought, John Collins once said - "Swim 3.8km, Ride 180, Run 42 and brag for the rest of your life!"  No mention of time limits, being better than everyone else etc.

 

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check that last bit before the 42

[DingoDave 130]

wonder how many people had to Walk at Busso IM last year...

[Peter 4,248]

One final thought, John Collins once said - "Swim 3.8km, Ride 180, Run 42 and brag for the rest of your life!" No mention of time limits, being better than everyone else etc.

 

Try telling that to the person that did 17:12 this year at Kona who didn't get credited with a finish, get the medal or the shirt.

[Guest Hitman]

Height restrictions are more of a concern than times.

[Guzz 8]

One final thought, John Collins once said - "Swim 3.8km, Ride 180, Run 42 and brag for the rest of your life!" No mention of time limits, being better than everyone else etc.

 

Try telling that to the person that did 17:12 this year at Kona who didn't get credited with a finish, get the medal or the shirt.

 

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Agreed. A mate missed out on Forster in '04 by only a minute or so. No official recognition, no medal, no shirt, removed from the official results by the next morning - just like he never did the race!

 

He was able to make amends as it was in Roth this year, funnily enough with a 15hour cutoff if I remember correctly.

[Dalai 449]

for all those middle aged guys out there who are whinging, spend less time on here working those fingers and spend some more time doing some brisk walk training

 

Disappointing elitist comment Anthony!

 

Who do I respect more?

 

The middle aged person who probably has many responsibilities such as job/s (or business), young family, mortgage with the time restraints due to the above.

They may have been inactive for a while. Perhaps that crazy friend who races IM just wouldn't stop raving about it or they had their first health scare or or they may remember back to watching some footage of a crazy event they saw on a Wide World of Sports on a Saturday afternoon and with the above triggers thinks they might be just crazy enough to give this Ironman caper a go!!

 

So they don't have a lot of time to train, but toe the start line with the other expectant IM virgins having done as much preparation as they are able to manage - attempting what could be one of their biggest life events and have the drive to continue on, finishing it long after dark and most competitors are already asleep or still out celebrating.

 

Or the young guy with few responsibilities. Still at Uni so has free time galore plus 3 months holidays over summer and the breaks during the year. Probably still lives at home and have much still done for them. They have been active all through their school years so it's part of what they do - they don't have to make the big life changing decision to get out the door to train after all these years.

 

The young guy who has done okay in some shorter races including 1/2 IM. He is cocky about his abilities and doesn't show full IM the respect it deserves. So in his first IM enters as a pro and races for a result rather than going just to learn about himself and the distance and blows up big time! Ends up the last finishing Male Pro and a fair way down in the results after a 4:28 marathon split.

 

Then when IM timelimits are discussed rudely without knowing peoples situations tells them to stop being lazy and just train!

 

I look forward if Transitions is still going in 20 or 30 years, when some of those responsibilities may be facing you Anthony and perhaps kept you away from the sport a while. Or injuries may be limiting your training. And then wondering why you are not as fast as you once were or that you wished the cut off wasn't so extreme now as getting across the line in the time allowed isn't so easy as it was when you were young!

 

I agree that Hawaii shouldn't have the lottery - perhaps only a few invites for special cases as it is the World Championships for the distance afterall. But to deny the middle aged, the less fit and less fast a chance of taking part in one of the best distance races Triathlon has to offer by competing at other IM events - even if it does take them 17 hours!

 

I have competed for my country in another sport but still rate my first IM finish at Foster as one of my big life events and it still to this day brings back the amazing emotions and feelings on crossing that finish line an Ironman!

[Hymie 187]

Bravo Dali, Bravo, sorry Anthony I'm with Dali on this one.

 

As Yo x 2 would say 'Word'

[A Zed 14]

Bravo Dali, Bravo, sorry Anthony I'm with Dali on this one.

 

As Yo x 2 would say 'Word'

 

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"Word" it is

[Guest Freak]

I can't believe I am doing this but Dalai that is a crock of shite. Yeah Anthony is cocky and has time to train point valid. But I am exactly as you describe (well I'm not middle aged yet ) I have a morgatge, married with a young family, Very busy full time job yet I still have the dedication and time to train. These people just make excuses, and yes I understand that not everybody has natural athletic ability but it isn't really that hard to get off your arse and do some training....

 

(Side note I have not completed IM, but I am at the point and of my A/G...)

[milliner 3]

Chnaging the time limit couldtake away some of the beauty and appeal of the IM . I think it could be apoor business move on behalf of WTC.

 

It seems the only ones advocating a reduction are the guys that comfortable go under , sure we can make the sport elitist but what would that do for the sport ? Personally I think it would kill it

[Brick 11]

I can't believe I am doing this but Dalai that is a crock of shite.  Yeah Anthony is cocky and has time to train point valid.  But I am exactly as you describe (well I'm not middle aged yet )  I have a morgatge, married with a young family, Very busy full time job yet I still have the dedication and time to train.  These people just make excuses, and yes I understand that not everybody has natural athletic ability but it isn't really that hard to get off your arse and do some training....

 

(Side note I have not completed IM, but I am at the point and of my A/G...)

 

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Freak,

I do not know you but anyway, if you have not finished an Ironman then what you are talking is

a crock of shite

 

The question is still why cut the time to 15-14 hours for an Ironman, in my opinion no good reason.

 

Brick

[Nige 0]

Change things if they bring positive benefits, or ensure that fairness is created or enhanced, or it makes good business sense without compromising your customer experience. To me this does none of those things.

[Peter 4,248]

I can't believe I am doing this but Dalai that is a crock of shite.  Yeah Anthony is cocky and has time to train point valid.  But I am exactly as you describe (well I'm not middle aged yet )  I have a morgatge, married with a young family, Very busy full time job yet I still have the dedication and time to train.  These people just make excuses, and yes I understand that not everybody has natural athletic ability but it isn't really that hard to get off your arse and do some training....

 

(Side note I have not completed IM, but I am at the point and of my A/G...)

 

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Sadly I was going to agree with ya Freak but then I got to the bottom where you self confess that you are at the pointy end at HIM but never done a full.

 

I agree with brick. You are full of it. You can't make a comment like that if you haven't done it.

 

For example Kamahl not K2 the original (Now Banned from here) is a gun at the HIM but when he tried the full he wansn't. He was still good but not the best. Just cause you are grreat at the HIM distance doesn't mean you will be at the full.

 

Then to switch back and agree with you I do agree that people out there do make excuses. I may be one of them.

[CEM 251]

I'm with Dalai on this also. Humility is a great attribute to have.

 

I think society needs challenges people can see as their Everest...really, really big but somehow, with some persistence, dedication and determination something they can complete (not compete).

 

We on Trannies are nothing like a typical cross-section of the community. The fact we talk about IM finishes and times so readily builds a feeling that it's really not such a big thing after all.

 

But go to the supermarket, cafe, or wherever you hang out with some "cross-section" people and if they haven't dismissed you as obsessed, loopy and crazy by the time you tell them what an IM is, then look at their eyes roll when they start to see the distances in the context of what they're familiar with. An IM is a completely unnatural thing to do.

 

Then you will realise that an IM is an amazing human accomplishment, and something that we should be forever grateful that our bodies can complete it.

 

So I think anyone who takes on challenge of preparing for an IM deserves the right to be able to do it - and complete it - as reward for their courage.

 

Cut-off times perhaps serve more of practical purpose, and also put some bounds on what defines the IM. Start at 7am. Finish before midnight. That's what an IM is. Without some bounds it would be like climbing 3/4 up Mt Everest...yeah, you've climbed Mt Everest but you didn't get to the top.

 

Finally, if you'd seen 76yo Sister Madonna Buder finish Hawaii 10 days ago with 53sec to spare before midnight you wouldn't even think of shortening the cut-off.

Edited October 31, 2006 by CEM

[humdrum 247]

Veeery well put CEM

 

I want to do IM one day, and I know I'll be slow. I'm just not that athletic a person, but IM is my Everest now

 

And as I have told in another thread, it wasn't the fast people that inspired me most when watching IM Germany all those years back.

Give the 'normal' people a chance to achieve their dreams !!!

[Peter 4,248]

I want to do IM one day, and I know I'll be slow.

 

There is nothing wrong with being slow. The finish shute would be very packed if everyone did 10:24.

[Guzz 8]

I'm with Dalai on this also. Humility is a great attribute to have.

 

I think society needs challenges people can see as their Everest...really, really big but somehow, with some persistence, dedication and determination something they can complete (not compete).

 

 

Very well said. Totally agree.

 

And I agree with Blew too! Absolutely nothing wrong with being slow! Given the very high cost of these races, you actually get more bang for your $$$ by being out there longer! Could it be that all the bunnies are jealous??

 

 

 

Edit to fix typo.

Edited October 31, 2006 by cpg

[Nige 0]

I want to do IM one day, and I know I'll be slow.

 

There is nothing wrong with being slow. The finish shute would be very packed if everyone did 10:24.

 

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Softcock

[DtM 0]

All this

 

"if you aren't dedicated enough to train 25 hours a week"

 

" if you can't run the whole marathon" .......

 

then you are not worthy to do an Ironman (which of course is the high point in humanitarian achievement) .....

 

is Elitist Crap nothing more or less.

 

Ironman is a personal achievement 8 hours or 17 hours or 24 hours. Do not expect others to be impressed enjoy it for you.

 

Most of the world has no concept of what Ironman is and the fact you have to explain what it is in order for them to then be impressed really sums up the situation.

[Dalai 449]

But I am exactly as you describe (well I'm not middle aged yet )  I have a morgatge, married with a young family, Very busy full time job yet I still have the dedication and time to train.  These people just make excuses, and yes I understand that not everybody has natural athletic ability but it isn't really that hard to get off your arse and do some training....

 

 

Freak - it's all about perspective and priorities. For some people the goal is just to finish!! Not everyone has the natural ability nor the drive or willing to make the sacrifices that finishing an IM fast takes!

 

I am middle aged and the same criteria (except the young family - that's another sad and long story). I do make the sacrifices and spend less time with friends and family than I really should, to still be competitive against all age groups when injuries allow (including Ruley) because being competitive is a priority for me.

 

By the way finishing short course events fast and IM fast are two totally different things. Come back and talk the talk when you've walked the walk! (well run the marathon, remember no walking allowed!)

[yoyo 1,326]

Sort of on topic here but sort of not..... here's some fruit for you BOP doodes who walk a bit/alot....

 

YoYo only walks a coupla the aid stations in an IM Mara, usually in the latter half.

And when i say "walk the aid station", i mean i slow to a fast walk for about 10 steps maybe....

 

Anyway.... I see the punters slogging it out at the back of the field when i go around for the last 21k.... they/you're doin it tuff, but i gotta lotta respect for you, coz you're keepin it real, your not pretending to be anything that you're not.

 

The funniest thing all you guys don't get to see, that the Y-O does, is all the hot shot Uber-Bikers and Johnny Dangerous types.....totally blownup and walking by 25k... alot of them look like they're shuffling along looking for some spare change they dropped...dribbling on themselves....

 

Like i said to one of the fellas this morning... Be it poker or IM...A pair of 5's doesn't get you much....