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Kamahl, I did have a Kerry Hopkins custom for many years with similar dimensions to a QR inc. 650c wheels on a 60 cm equivalent frame. It was nicknamed the 'praying mantis' cos I was all arms and legs on it with those small wheels. :lol: Great bike to ride though- for tri's.

 

Avago, what's this agreeing to disagree business? Too mature.I thought this was an internet forum? Aren't we supposed to degenerate into a slanging match and then find the nearest wall and a piece of chalk :D:lol:

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According to Cervelo (albeit, last time I spoke to them) the P3 is designed to used the forward position and the intended sizing is the same as a road bike.

 

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"intended" maybe, but reality it is not! As you see reading my post, there is no way I could ride a 58cm P3. The other thing to remember with the P3 is that the seat angle changes depending on the height of the seat post! Low and it is much slacker than it is when high.

 

ps. I rode with 0cm saddle behind BB, with the seat post head in the rear position. To reverse it would leave me forward of the BB which is not recommended.

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Interestingly I have used a P3 well forward of the BB (after talking to Cervelo) and found it handled really well... in fact, much better than at the zero position... but, of course, that's me and that's one case.

 

I also found that they were correct in recommending the same size as my roadie (they sent me a sizing form, and I sent them a bunch of anatomical measurements) but obviously this only works when you use a well forward position... which is what they based the sizing recommendation on.

 

My preference for the Dual over the P3 & P2 is that it provides the same basic forward position, without the extremely low stack-height (3cm higher) and without the extremely high price.

 

I have no issue with anyone who spends a heap of money on a P3... they are really nice bikes and only wish I had that level of income to have such a choice... but anyone who imagines that the wheel cut-out and aero seat-stays is the make-or-break for their performance, probably needs to have another good look at everything else they could do first, before blowing a few $K on those features.

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My preference for the Dual over the P3 & P2 is that it provides the same basic forward position, without the extremely low stack-height (3cm higher) and without the extremely high price.

 

 

I've been to their website in the interim and looked at the relevant geometries. Turns out that the Dual has the exact same geometry as the P2K, it's just lacking the cutout. So you could save yourself US$400 (AU$10,000 :lol:) right there.

Edited by WebSwim
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I've been to their website in the interim and looked at the relevant geometries. Turns out that the Dual has the exact same geometry as the P2K, it's just lacking the cutout. So you could save yourself US$400 (AU$10,000 :D) right there.

 

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Goes to show how inaccurate their information is then doesn't it! Two bikes with the same tubeset, made to the 'same' geometry, one with the rear wheel at least 2cm further forward in relation to the seat tube (i.e. the rear wheel cutout on the P2K) yet both have exactly the same geometry??? :lol: Not possible is it.

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I own a P3C and as much as i hate to say it.......................its handling is less than inspiring, but it is still as fast as a bat out of hell as long as the course isnt too technical.

 

I have found the rear tends to want to go straight on fast corners and that can get scary as you near the edge of a road whilst pushing hard. Another thing I have noticed is when on any kind of descent with a less than perfect road the rear of the bike tends to step out unexpectedly on small bumps. This has happened on every club TT I have competed in since purchasing it. On the last one I was going 54-55kph when the rear stepped out about 5-10cm on me, scared the s@#t out of me and my HR jumped 10 beats.

 

I am now tinkering with seat position trying to push more weight over the rear of the bike to see if this helps stabilize the bike more on these descents. I am unsure if I will learn to live with these traits as I ride it more or if I have a bad fall I may lose my confidence in the bike but time will tell I guess. Though I must say it took 2mins out of my fastest 18.5km club TT time and I rode a 2.27 at GC HIM so it seems to work for me none the less, just need to be cautious cornering and descending.

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I own a P3C and as much as i hate to say it.......................its handling is less than inspiring, but it is still as fast as a bat out of hell as long as the course isnt too technical.

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Hey Sambo, you have just violated rule 15.7 of the Expensive bike Owners Manual.

 

When you have dumped over $6-7k on a bike you must extoll its virtues come hell or high water.

 

Shame on you!!! :lol:

 

I am guessing you have a few spacers on the fork steerer, mmhh??

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ps. I rode with 0cm saddle behind BB, with the seat post head in the rear position. To reverse it would leave me forward of the BB which is not recommended.

 

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Comparing the distance of your saddle tip forward or aft of the BB is only relevant if we know your seat height.

 

A complete short arse might be 0cm saddle behind BB on a Hogged 72 degree seat post while a tall dude might run a 80 degree super steep set up and still remain behind the BB.

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The funny thing about the P3 is that is has a very low head tube but too many fat, inflexible, triathletes choose to ride a bike they are simply not in the physical shape to take advantage of. It means they end up running a stupid number of spacers and wonder why the handling is shit.

 

After removing all my spacers (4 :lol: ) on my P3 and moving the seat forward (and up) I was expecting the handling to be much worse but so far it seems rock solid. I am not very experienced but reading what OLT wrote makes it sound less surprising, i.e. I am probably in a more optimal position for the P3's geometry.

 

Cheers

Vernon

 

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Exactly Vernon, you got it in one.

 

Sadly most of the well-moneyed P3 owners out there lack the time in the saddle to feel comfortable in that position or have a belly that gets in the way.

 

Bike position is not about flexibilty either, I am as inflexible as anyone I know yet ride very agressively in a tt position.

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Actually no spacers at all. I am a non believer in spacers (except for above the stem to save some steerer tube for when I sell).

 

PS dont tell my wife I just crapped on my bike or I might be looking for a place to stay................ :lol:

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I am getting a little uncomfortable with the coupling of P3s with big spending bike owners..... makes me sound like a wanker :lol: .

 

I bought a 2000 model P3 in 2001 because it was very heavily discounted :lol: .

 

It's done 30,000km and I am sure it will outlast me. I expect to clean it one day too.

 

Just for the record.

 

Cheers

Vernon

 

PS I think I am getting defensive..... back to Slowtwitch :D .

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Thanks Sambo, always wondered why people had spacers above the stem.

 

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Actually, there is a better reason... you can start the training season with the stem at the top, and gradually pull the spacers from the bottom to the top as you adapt to it, and lower the stem.

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I've been to their website in the interim and looked at the relevant geometries. Turns out that the Dual has the exact same geometry as the P2K, it's just lacking the cutout. So you could save yourself US$400 (AU$10,000 :D) right there.

 

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Goes to show how inaccurate their information is then doesn't it! Two bikes with the same tubeset, made to the 'same' geometry, one with the rear wheel at least 2cm further forward in relation to the seat tube (i.e. the rear wheel cutout on the P2K) yet both have exactly the same geometry??? :lol: Not possible is it.

 

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Sure it is, when you limit the geometry comparisons to seat tube angle and head tube angle - which is what most do. You can tuck the rear wheel in tight, or slide it back on some extendable rails, and so long as you don't change the height of the rear axle relative to that of the front, or move/change the position of the BB, the geometry remains the same. This happens because STL is determined by it's angle relative to the horizontal line of the road (or line drawn between the front and rear axles).

 

In other words... if the rear axle moves forward as a result of the cut-out, or back as a result of NOT having the cut-out, the geometry remains the same because the angle of the horizintal plane and the ST are unchanged. But if the BB moves BACK as a result of the shorter stays, then the geometry changes.

 

In comparing the P2K with the Dual, check to see if the wheelbase on the Dual is greater. If so then it is quite possible that they share the same geometries.

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In comparing the P2K with the Dual, check to see if the wheelbase on the Dual is greater.  If so then it is quite possible that they share the same geometries.

 

 

I did. Every single measurement on Cervelo's site is the same for the two bikes, both in 75 degree mode and 78 degree mode. Those measurements are:

 

Seat Tube angle

Head Tube angle

BB Drop

Top Tube

Head Tube

Front Centre (BB -> front axle)

Rear Centre (BB -> rear axle)

Standover Height

Stack

Reach

 

I've fired off an email to them asking how the rear-centre measurement can be the same on both if one has a cutout, as 100% pointed out. Will post any reply.

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Bike companies are renowned for putting inaccurate info up for geometry. When I was originally looking at Cervelo the info on P2K and Dual was NOT the same, and there was a difference in chainstay/ rear-centre length of about 1.5cm. From memory the chainstay on the Dual is 387mm, the P2k 370-375. The front-centre was also different (longer on P2K) which partly negated the shorter stays so that overall wheelbase was very close.

 

Just checked, all the geometry listed for the P2K is def. the nos. for the Dual. Somebody appears to have made a screwup of updating the site. Who would've thought :D

 

Does anyone remember the original multipurpose curved seattube bike, the KHS ZH2B Aero Turbo? Ken Glah and Jan Wanklyn both rode them in the early 90s, such as at IMOZ 1991. Was rated very highly in the handling department in the reports I read :lol: Designed by Lennard Zinn, Steve Hed and Boone Lennon.

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Just checked, all the geometry listed for the P2K is def. the nos. for the Dual. Somebody appears to have made a screwup of updating the site. Who would've thought  :lol:

 

 

Just checked the internet archive and found the P2K's original geometry from late 2004.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040726080526/.../bikes/P2K.html

 

It's much closer to the P3 and the current P2SL, so I reckon the P2K's geometry should be the same as the P2SL's geometry, not the Dual.

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Ken Glah and Jan Wanklyn both rode them in the early 90s,

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Yeah but you have to have a rough head and a mullet or both to ride one...

 

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When did you get yours Jabbs? :lol:

 

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My tongue was always getting caught in the spokes, had to get rid of it. The aforesaid appendage does have its advantages though, for some strange reason, when I go to the pub, I sit down at the bar, lick my eyebrows and all the chicks come up and talk to me.....

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I am getting a little uncomfortable with the coupling of P3s with big spending bike owners..... makes me sound like a wanker  :lol: .

 

Vernon, I'd never worry about that, out of golf, animal strangling and masturbation, golf is the least popular and in decline.

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in fairness,just to set the record straight ,regarding steve hoggs comments:

 

)john hill has never owned an ultrasound

2)john hills bike splits are usually pretty good and followed by a fair run,his comments are untrue and to get attention to his bike fit business i presume.

3)john hill has only commented about his own back being sore,like scott molina he,s suffered with it all his life.again more rubbish or twisted information about john hill on this site.

 

lastly i wonder what jabbas motives are to constantly put john hill down,seeing as he,s never even met or spoken to him but appears to have him weighed up.then hides behind his bottle of beer or says he doesn,t dislike him.....is it to stir the sh** if so why?.after all thats why he started this thread..come on jabba tell the real reason or dont u have the balls? slandering someone is lower than low,it effects their personal life and business.he,s now slandering through someone else(hoggy)obviously jabba didn,t learn last time when he apologised after coming off the beer and realising what a stupid position he had put himself in.

 

simone

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I got fitted by Steve Hogg in early October and I am getting alot more power through the bike....the main difference I have is that my legs feel fresh straight off the bike..

 

used to get pain in the shoulders and lower back but not getting any any more and I have done 7 120+ cycles in the last few weeks....getting off bike and running anywhere from 15/20 K without any reduction in my normal running speed.

 

 

Obviously I cant speak for anyone else but my experience has been excellent.

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I got fitted by Steve Hogg in early October and I am getting alot more power through the bike....the main difference I have is that my legs feel fresh straight off the bike..

 

used to get pain in the shoulders and lower back but not getting any any more and I have done 7  120+ cycles in the last few weeks....getting off bike and running anywhere from 15/20 K without any reduction in my normal running speed.

 

 

Obviously I cant speak for anyone else but my experience has been excellent.

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Ardeevin, Avago agrees with you 100%

ride as fast if not faster, less pain & easier running off the bike for me too.

did I mention I was more comfortable as well

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He is welcome to retort on this site, tell him all about this

 

No comment on the rant.

 

Jabba, the guys in question probably have no interest in this site and no (edited in) obligation, to post any reply here.

 

Unfortunately (like myself), the very frequent posters here are also doing the least amount of training.

 

I myself love your work too Jabbs. Personally I would not name names as you do, that's where the trouble starts, when it's broadly known who the subjects are, no need to name them, like Hoggs original comment, it was broad unnuendo with no name attached.

 

I would expect the moderator to remove that, but they are pretty laissez faire, they are not reading the posts minute to minute.

Edited by kamalarrowsmith
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and just re reading what Hoggy said, and what has been said on this thread, Simmi baby get yer head out of your arse, or whoever elses its up and you will see that there has been discussion about riding position, relative merits of bikes, my tongue, and triathlon in general. It was on topic.

 

I find on many occasions that many readers are very selective in what they actually absorb and skim over the entire content and get emselves into trouble..... I know, I know, I have been guilty of this as well, but on 'transitions' probably doesnt matter as much as when dealing with legal doccos etc etc I guess.

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3)john hill has only commented about his own back being sore,like scott molina he,s suffered with it all his life.again more rubbish or twisted information about john hill on this site.

 

Simone

 

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Yep, theres a valid comparison, looks like Simmi is on the right track there, an age group triathlete, compared to ......... some bloke called Scott Molina. Whos he?? :lol:

 

sEE yyaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Edited by jabbasaurus
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Jabbs, stop editing all your posts!!

 

Firstly, I for one don't think you are a prick, but it gives me the shits when your pour all this shit out on a individual, whether it be John Hill, Bill Davoren or me based on your 'honest belief' and 'facts' and then turn around and edit it all again in the morning or finalise with your classic "it is all tongue in cheek" closer (which you have already edited from your last post as I wrote this).

 

I am sure on re-reading some of it you might think you come across as a ranting arsehole (you do on occasion) but do us the favour of leaving your diatribe there so that people can use is at a refrence when considering the validity of your next character assasination.

 

Be the straight talker you are, I may not agree with some of your writing but for gods sake leave it there for others to see or don't write it in the first place. Your diatribes are part of the fabric that is transitions, leave the good with the bad.

 

Secondly, the "it is all tongue in cheek" disclaimer you pop in when you know you have gone too far is a complete wank. When you write this shit you are generally (or at least temporarily) convinced of your right to say it and very serious. To say that is is all tongue in cheek is bullshit and you know it.

 

To quote Marcia Hines . "Be yourself honey, don't let anyone pressure you into being someone else".

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To also quote Marcia Hines:

 

Ain't got no troubles in my life

No foolish dreams to make me wanna cry

I'm never frightened or worried

I know I'll always get by

I heat up, I cool down

When something's in my way I go around it

Don't let life get me down (get me down)

I'm going to take it the way that I found it

I got the music in me

I got the music in me

I got the music in me

I got the music in me

I got the music in me

I got the music in me

 

Sing it with me Jabbsy.

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Actually I just post so much because I love seeing my great looking head......

 

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Bernie, this is clearly slanderous of people with great looking heads. I have seen jab's head and while it is great in circumference, it aint great looking!!

 

In seriousness, I am not sure there are directly slanderous comments in this thread per se, just people's opinions about other people.

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:lol::D OK, thanks OLT.

 

I have just skim read it and cannot find anything slanderous, so will leave it be, but if anyone does happen to stumble across something I've missed (other than Jabba's head), it'll be a big help if you can let me know sooner rather than later.

 

Bernie

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