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Would you use a phone app to track covid-19

Would you use a phone app to track covid-19?  

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  1. 1. Would you use a phone app to track covid-19?

    • Yes
      10
    • No
      6


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1 hour ago, -- AJ -- said:

I havn't seen the source code so I don't know for certain and I doubt you have either so I can't see how you can state this as fact.

Until the code is open sourced (which I doubt it will be), we will have absolutely no idea what the app is doing and how it is doing it.   It may be legit but given I have politicians telling me what it is and isn't doing,  I'm suspicious.

I don't have Google Home and I have the Location services are turned off the media giants don't track me either.

Apparently I havn't existed since early 2018. 😀

If it is of any comfort the app would still work with location services off as I think it primarily relies on Bluetooth pinging between phones. 

It is creepy when Google tells me how long it would take to drive to work, since I have never told then where I work. They just Ivie my phone spends a lot of time in that location. The price Ipay for using all their "free" services. 

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11 minutes ago, dazaau said:

If it is of any comfort the app would still work with location services off as I think it primarily relies on Bluetooth pinging between phones. 

Yep and it bypasses standard bluetooth security to do so.   Usually BT security is handled by one device authorising the other device to connect e.g. headphones paired to a phone.  From what I understand, the technique this app uses involves a global broadcast (e.g. I'm here who else is here) and a "security key" (for the want of a better term) to allow the app to talk to the same app on the other phone without the users having to authorise the connection. 

From a security (or lack thereof) perspective, If you know the key you can build something to communicate with the app. (which is why they probably won't open source the code so they can keep that part secret).

Probably needless for me to say that I have Bluetooth turned off as well.  Only ever turned it on for handsfree when I was driving long distances.   Not driving anywhere at the moment so no need to have it on.

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I see in NZ they are asking people to write a diary of their daily movements to help the tracers if they get Covid-19. I think I prefer to use the App

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1 hour ago, Mr Flower said:

I see in NZ they are asking people to write a diary of their daily movements to help the tracers if they get Covid-19. I think I prefer to use the App

Just keep your games going and if you get it and need to prove where you went give them those files. 
 

not give access to your mobile and everything you do on it.  

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16 minutes ago, Peter said:

Just keep your games going and if you get it and need to prove where you went give them those files. 
 

not give access to your mobile and everything you do on it.  

Do you mean phones? I was just about to head to Bunnings and my phone told me I was last there 4 weeks ago. So you are right. Though isn't the purpose of the App is that it will tell the tracers who I was close to?

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19 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

For those who are saying no you should check your Strava and Google privacy settings as both of those companies collect location data, particularly Google. If you have the Google location history turned on the following link will give you a very detailed map of where you have been with your phone.

http://www.google.com/maps/timeline

Hmm 

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3 hours ago, Mr Flower said:

Do you mean phones? I was just about to head to Bunnings and my phone told me I was last there 4 weeks ago. So you are right. Though isn't the purpose of the App is that it will tell the tracers who I was close to?

Correct..... in theory...... 

I'd rather an app that tells me where the infect/suspect people are so I dont go near them. Whats the point of running down Bobbin head road and getting home and the App tells you you just ran past 20 infected people.

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5 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

From a security (or lack thereof) perspective, If you know the key you can build something to communicate with the app. (which is why they probably won't open source the code so they can keep that part secret).

Well I am genuinely surprised.  They are apparently letting the source be reviewed by some qualified bodies of experts.

I may have to reconsider my previous concerns.

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That Strava thing that a lot of folks use on their phone,  follows you everywhere even when you're not using it. If you use a mobile phone, fitness watch or band and pay for things with your credit or debit card, the govt knows where you are 90% or your day. Matching that with the data that this COVID App will gather will definitely nail down where the virus clusters are.  They should be able track down where all that toilet paper went as well, lol.

(And at the end of the pandemic, the govt can make a bit of money selling your location days to third parties to raise some money!). ....... This is tongue in cheek humour, so put your high horse back in the barn.

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25 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

They are apparently letting the source be reviewed by some qualified bodies of experts.

I may have to reconsider my previous concerns.

Yeah, watched the Minister talking tonight, saying all the right things, just a few things caught my attention:

"It'll never leave your phone" was repeated a number of times, but he also said something like "Only if you are positive will you send it up"

But he also said all the data they collect will be destroyed at the end.

so, if they are collecting data, it must leave people's phones, right?

If that's a manual process, you need to have safeguards against it being not so manual.

You also need to have safeguards for the data itself, which, historically, federal Government agencies haven't been great at.

Even though Greyman makes his point in jest, the data matching potential will be a VERY big temptation.

It is being touted as Health info, for the pandemic only, but what constitutes the pandemic being over?

What constitutes lawful use of the data?

With police all over the country involved in enforcing Chief Health Officer style directives, it's not a long bow to draw that they will need to access the data.

And once it's in the respective police systems, it doesn't matter if the original data is destroyed.

 

Now where's my hat?

 

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20 minutes ago, Tyno said:

But he also said all the data they collect will be destroyed at the end.

so, if they are collecting data, it must leave people's phones, right?

It only leaves your phone when you test positive for Covid and they download it at the hospital.

21 minutes ago, Tyno said:

"It'll never leave your phone" was repeated a number of times,

I change my phone every 2 years, so if everything is hunky dory in November next year, I will no longer have an app on my phone.

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16 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Now where's my hat?

Your alfoil hat is next to mine.  They're in the secret ASIO storage facility In the locked storage unit in the basement.  Go past the armed guards and the security camera and stop when you get to  the "hidden" microphone.  The storage unit is hidden behind the life size mural of John Howard.  (so look down) 

To unlock the unit you'll need to scan the ID chip in the back of your head and provide a DNA sample to the anal probe.

Thats why my hat is still there

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Good to see.

But I'd be interested to know why they 

Quote

 in a rare move, approached the Government to stress test the soon-to-be-released app 

when they're already in partnership with the ASD which is also doing security checks on the code.  One might have thought that the partners would be working together on something this important

also noticed that

Quote

 Ms Falk said she had not been given complete access to the entire process but that she was comfortable "given what [she had] seen".

So I wonder whats still being hidden

Edited by -- AJ --

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11 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

So I wonder whats still being hidden

The bit that downloads all the data nightly to the AFP server.

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7 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

The bit that downloads all the data nightly to the AFP server.

Shhh thats supposed to be a secret

- ScoMo

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What they need to do is expose the code out to the general public - open source.  Given it came from Singapore you would assume that the majority was written in Singapore.  Be interested in what was added or removed. 

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46 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

The bit that downloads all the data nightly to the AFP server.

and then on to China 😎

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1 minute ago, symo said:

and then on to China 😎

That's only if you're using a Huawei phone.

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Yep. I don't care who knows where I am ... except for my husband when I take off for a sneaky run session 🤣🤣

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12 hours ago, symo said:

What they need to do is expose the code out to the general public - open source.  

I may have heard wrong but didn't they say on the radio yesterday morning (Nova news at 8am) that they would be doing this? Or am I confusing it with some other code they are releasing?

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3 hours ago, Cranky said:

I may have heard wrong but didn't they say on the radio yesterday morning (Nova news at 8am) that they would be doing this? Or am I confusing it with some other code they are releasing?

Thats what they said.

Whether they do or not is another matter entirely.  As far as I know, to date its only been inspected by ASD (government agency) and one of its partners.

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According to an Oxford university study if 60% of people were to download the app the virus could actually be stopped. The Australian government research thinks that only about 40% of people will download the app. Hopefully with an independent audit and a smart "sales" campaign around the benefits the government can get closer to 60%.

https://045.medsci.ox.ac.uk/for-media

Professor Christophe Fraser, senior author of the latest report from Oxford University’s Nuffield Department of Medicine explains, “We’ve simulated coronavirus in a model city of 1 million inhabitants with a wide range of realistic epidemiological configurations to explore options for controlling transmission. Our results suggest a digital contact tracing app, if carefully implemented alongside other measures, has the potential to substantially reduce the number of new coronavirus cases, hospitalisations and ICU admissions. Our models show we can stop the epidemic if approximately 60% of the population use the app, and even with lower numbers of app users, we still estimate a reduction in the number of coronavirus cases and deaths.”

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Still its going to be hard to shake the nagging doubts that its going to be abused.  History is not on the Government side and the masses don't quickly forget.

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1 hour ago, -- AJ -- said:

Still its going to be hard to shake the nagging doubts that its going to be abused.  History is not on the Government side and the masses don't quickly forget.

Can you give some examples of the government misusing data or are you talking generally about not trusting the government?

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11 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

Can you give some examples of the government misusing data or are you talking generally about not trusting the government?

A bit both ways.

As I pointed out earlier there have been several cases where the internet metadata which was supposed to only be accessed via a court issued warrant for a specific crimes and limited to that specific crime has been accessed by both federal and state police without a warrant and in one case in quantities to suggest it was a data mining exercise rather than a targeted search. 

The ASD has recently (Tuesday from memory) come out and stated that cyber security in most government departments is considered not up to scratch several years after the issues were first identified.

and I probably don't need to mention how often politicians have convicted of corruption (plenty in Queensland over recent years)

and then theres the famous "There will be no GST implemented under any government I lead" which he did on his next term.

And finally, how often both major parties have dumped sitting PrimeMinisters purely on the basis of low popularity just so they can win the next election.

So yeah, I'm struggling with the trust issue.

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19 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Can you give some examples of the government misusing data or are you talking generally about not trusting the government?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/mar/02/exclusive-ministers-office-sent-journalist-internal-briefings-about-centrelink-client

Furthermore, the current encryption laws require contractors to build a backdoor into databases upon request by the govt/security agencies - but also make it an offence for the contractors to reveal the existence of the backdoor.  So when they say "its totally secure and there's no backdoor", well, it would be illegal for them to say otherwise... 

Edited by Abby

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i couldn't care less if the followed my movements, I'm not that interesting, so happy to use the app.

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Same here Blobby, they'd get bored pretty quickly tracking me!

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6 minutes ago, -H- said:

Same here Blobby, they'd get bored pretty quickly tracking me!

I reckon Id go and do something unusual on purpose so they didn't think I was a real boring old fart.  :lol: 

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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-24/amazon-to-provide-cloud-services-for-coronavirus-tracing-app/12176682

Quote

Government insiders and technology industry players have raised alarms about the Federal Government's new COVID-19 tracing app, after a contract for its data storage went offshore to US retail and technology giant Amazon.

Data storage??? I'm certain that the data is being kept on phones and only available to local health authorities if you test positive. Why do they need a massive US cloud storage company to store what (on existing numbers) is only likely to be a relatively small amount of data. 

Quote

Issuing the contract to Amazon may also mean the Australian data is obtainable by US law enforcement under a 2018 law that allows them to obtain information held by US-registered data companies no matter where in the world that information is held.

And just like that,  all trust in this app disappears into a steaming pile of political cow dung 

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They store in one of their 3 Sydney sites.  Probably already got an Enterprise agreement in place with them which would already have the boxes ticked - same as we do at the bank.  They probably already use  AWS so can build it up fast.

 

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i find it amusing to think people are so worried about their privacy, unless you're a drug dealer, i can't see why anyone would be so worried. I also find it disgusting people are trying to put a political stance on it. 

 

 Just download the app. 

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On 23/04/2020 at 3:13 PM, Ironnerd said:

Can you give some examples of the government misusing data or are you talking generally about not trusting the government?

And further to my answer above.  Here is whats happening in the UK where more and more govt departments are getting access to internet data that they were originally excluded from.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/23/uk_snoopers_charter_sequel/

People might ask why this is applicable?  Fair question as this is Australian and that's the UK.  The answer is that our  internet metadata legislation was modeled on the UK legislation and it would take a brave soul to suggest that theres no chance of something similar happening here. 

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58 minutes ago, Prince said:

. I also find it disgusting people are trying to put a political stance on it. 

 

 Just download the app. 

Both sides are complicit in passing terrible laws as far as net security goes, so it’s not political, it’s Government. 
 

No. 

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The more I think about it, it can’t be anything other than a supplemental solution to regular contact tracing. 
Smart phones are extremely common, but not 100% owned. 
And they aren’t 100% carried. 
And it might not be the same person carrying it 100% of the time. 
So, if you need 60%, I’m happy to be in the 40 thanks. 

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21 hours ago, chris said:

So abc news reports amazon will store the data, how will that influence your decision 

Amazon is a US company and therefore according to current US law must provide any requested (as setout in an authorised  warrant) data regardless of who's data it is and where it is stored.   

Heres the story that started it all:  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/29/us-court-microsoft-personal-data-emails-irish-server

So in other words anybody suggesting that our data is perfectly secure and will only be available to relevant Australian State Government health departments is now talking complete bollocks.

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Not sure its the US you need to worry about, more likely the locals

 

Update on above  link  a bit more recent

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So the “news” bit on the app had old mate aiming for 40-50% use. 
Good luck to you lot. 

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14 minutes ago, Mr Flower said:

Downloaded. Easy enough. When will restrictions be lifted 😄

well that’s carrot 🥕 is it not.

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I'll be downloading it shortly.

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Downloaded.   
don’t care if they read my data as long as helps save some Lives and gets everyone back to work ASAP.   As is the message in ‘afterlife’: It’s not all about you. 
 

 

Edited by Prince
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35 minutes ago, goughy said:

I'll be downloading it shortly.

I just downloaded the #coronavirusaustralia App. Can’t see there being any privacy concerns and the three blokes who just rang my doorbell wanting to “discuss” my browsing history agreed.

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I'm signed up.

Interestingly a close contact is defined as within 1.5m for >15 minutes. 

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