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Would you use a phone app to track covid-19

Would you use a phone app to track covid-19?  

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  1. 1. Would you use a phone app to track covid-19?

    • Yes
      10
    • No
      6


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Would you use a phone app to track covid (data stored on your phone, not on a server, to be provided to health department when/if diagnosed with covid-19 so they can alert others who had the app that they have been in close proximity to you)

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If it means a possibility of relaxing restrictions, hell yeah. 

I'm boring and have no secrets and nothing to hide from the Govt. 

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The issue isn't for corona its for the future.  So nope.

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7 minutes ago, Peter said:

The issue isn't for corona its for the future.  So nope.

Ummm, delete the app when you are done? 

 

But sure, I reckon if we open up again, make it compulsory to have the app and wear a mask (if we can get them) to be outside. 

Otherwise stay inside with your conspiracy theories and germs and suffer. 

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The data is all there at the moment, and the Telcos have access to it. At the moment the government needs a warrant to look at it for any particular individual. This just bypasses the need for parliament to pass a bill giving them the right to do it on a mass scale without warrants. Other countries have already done it.

The benefits are that if you are diagnosed, then they can see where you've been, and who else has been there at the same time, and then where they went & who they were close to. It all works great until someone forgets their phone or turns it off.

The down side is they can also see if you are making too many trips and book you.

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The info is there now, just the corporations have it and not the govt

I know which one i trust and it is the Govt, not the corporations

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23 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

The down side is they can also see if you are making too many trips and book you.

So it will catch dumb people.  But I had a mate going to the beach last weekend.  I just said turn your mobile off and leave it off unless you 100% need it.

Cant track turned off mobiles

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6 minutes ago, Peter said:

So it will catch dumb people.  But I had a mate going to the beach last weekend.  I just said turn your mobile off and leave it off unless you 100% need it.

Cant track turned off mobiles

It does not actively track anybody. The data is stored in the phone and produces a list of people you were in proximity to while sick (of those who also had the app)

Edited by dazaau

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If I could be confident that it would only ever be used for pandemic control then yes. Otherwise, I think I'll load it to a cheap phone and leave it on the kitchen bench most of the time. 

 

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I would install it. With the correct legislation, data usage and access controls in place the data will be safe. 

It is like the controversy around storing your medical records online. I did not opt out and have found it convenient to be able to access my medical records and allow other medical professionals access. 

For those that are saying No if the government did breach its own data usage and access rules what negative uses do you think the government could use the location data for?

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19 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

It is like the controversy around storing your medical records online. I did not opt out and have found it convenient to be able to access my medical records and allow other medical professionals access. 

I don't this these two things can be compared at all.  I would probably install and use the phone app as I have control of the data and can leave the phone at home, uninstall the app or wipe my phone whenever I want.  The online medical records is a different story altogether - I don't own or have access to it and I do not trust all the individual medical practices to have their anti-virus / malware up to date - there is not just one point of failure here, but tens of thousands access points to that data...

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1 hour ago, dazaau said:

It does not actively track anybody. The data is stored in the phone and produces a list of people you were in proximity to while sick (of those who also had the app)

148 people in Vic currently have it.  About 50 of those are in hospital.  
 

The app is just more media and government noise and pointless for anyone

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1 minute ago, Peter said:

148 people in Vic currently have it.  About 50 of those are in hospital.  
 

The app is just more media and government noise and pointless for anyone

Not really. The hard part is where to from here? The economy can't go on like this indefinitely. If you open things back up this would make it a lot easier to contain if the crap hits the fan. 

Surely you don't want to live like this until the "magic vaccine arrives". 

 

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Well a leader of another country said they are past the peak where they will see deaths drop daily.  
 

im totally fine with that.  

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56 minutes ago, Peter said:

Well a leader of another country said they are past the peak where they will see deaths drop daily.  
 

im totally fine with that.  

When did he say that?

2 days ago they had the highest daily death toll by 20%. Then they had more yesterday. 

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He said it this morning.  Saw it on sky news uk. 
imposted in the trump thread the article for you 

Edited by Peter

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In principle it sounds like a good idea - be interested to see the actual architecture of the solution rather than  bunch of loose descriptions from people in media.  

Meta data - that was only supposed to be accessed by a few - HA!!  Lack of trust comes back to bite you when you really need it.  Best not to waste it on silly little power grabs and on shortcuts.

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It’s a shame we don’t have it up and running  already.

NSW are looking for people to test and the results of the app would be a good guide on who they should target. 

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Trust the people who bought you #robodebt and #censusfail to not stuff this up too?

Fat chance.

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Nope. 

Be interested to know what technology is being used to determine the relative "closeness" of people and thereby pass contact details..  Locator services will only work if they're turned on (Mine isn't), triangulation from mobile towers wouldn't be accurate enough, and NFC wouldn't be strong enough. 

And then theres the question about how the data is passed between phones.

I can see a world of pain where people are told to go into isolation because they "might" have come into contact with somebody who has it could lead to a lot of people being put in isolation for no good reason. 

 

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Using bluetooth.  And they will have "immediate testing "  in place to speed things up and minimise iso

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For those "opting out" what is your alternate strategy for tracking the virus spread and returning to some form of normalcy, or do you prefer to stay in lock down indefinitely. 

Oh and here's a hat to go wear in the meantime 

download.jpg

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38 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

I can see a world of pain where people are told to go into isolation because they "might" have come into contact with somebody who has it could lead to a lot of people being put in isolation for no good reason. 

 

Yes, much better to isloate everyone instead ;)

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17 minutes ago, roxii said:

For those "opting out" what is your alternate strategy for tracking the virus spread and returning to some form of normalcy, or do you prefer to stay in lock down indefinitely. 

Oh and here's a hat to go wear in the meantime 

download.jpg

enjoying not being an admin Roxii? :lol:

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8 minutes ago, dazaau said:

enjoying not being an admin Roxii? :lol:

hehehe  I was thinking exactly the thing 🤣

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It's a tough one. On one hand I wish we all had DNA testing and have no problem with internet being monitored etc, kind of the view if I have nothing to hide what do I care. Same with the tracking of movements-I'd hate it but then think will if I wasn't doing the wrong then I shouldn't care etc.. 

But at the same time I realise governments are run by self serving, lying arseholes who only have their best interests at heart and can't be trusted... So I dunno... 

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2 hours ago, dazaau said:

Yes, much better to isloate everyone instead ;)

Given that I have absolutely no confidence that the data

  • Will be accurate enough for the intended purpose
  • Will only going to be used for its intended purpose and
  • Will only be used by the people who absolutely need it and not be shared to everybody who think they need it.

then yes...much better to either isolate everybody as we have been for the last 5 weeks or so or isolate nobody.  

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On 16/04/2020 at 11:14 AM, SomeTri said:

I don't this these two things can be compared at all.  I would probably install and use the phone app as I have control of the data and can leave the phone at home, uninstall the app or wipe my phone whenever I want.  The online medical records is a different story altogether - I don't own or have access to it and I do not trust all the individual medical practices to have their anti-virus / malware up to date - there is not just one point of failure here, but tens of thousands access points to that data...

FYI For your entire medical record or for individual records you can choose which provider(s) can access it. This greatly reduces the potential sources of data breaches to potentially just your GP's PC.

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9 hours ago, roxii said:

For those "opting out" what is your alternate strategy for tracking the virus spread and returning to some form of normalcy, or do you prefer to stay in lock down indefinitely. 

Oh and here's a hat to go wear in the meantime 

download.jpg

Roxette, I’m not questioning your incredible technical expertise......

BUT what about this proposed “solution” leads you to believe it will be accurate or reliable or not open to data theft or spoofing or compromise?

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29 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Roxette, I’m not questioning your incredible technical expertise......

BUT what about this proposed “solution” leads you to believe it will be accurate or reliable or not open to data theft or spoofing or compromise?

Haha I’ve got no idea. 
But I reckon the govt is bleeding money through every orifice and there is a pretty damn good incentive for them to get this to fly so they can get the economy moving. 

I don’t get why we trust the govr enough to assist them in trashing the economy but then would balk at helping them get it back on track. 
 

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4 minutes ago, roxii said:

but then would balk to assist them in trashing the economy but then would balk at helping them get it back on track. 

I don't balk at them getting it back on track.  I balk at having an app on my phone that I have no idea about what data it records and the data that it sends back to the central server.  And the more a government type person downplays that aspect the more suspicious I become.

Why? Because history has shown that various agencies will (not might) abuse access to the data.  

Today it'll be tracking you for virus notification.  Tomorrow you'll get a fine in the mail because the app has identified you as not isolating.  Next week you might find some enterprising policeman has used the data to identify you as a person of interest in a crime because you were in the location.

And don't say it won't happen because it happens now. 

Some will remember the kerfuffle a few years ago about the government wanting to store ISP metadata and the promises that were made that the data would safe because of the stringent controls .  To my knowledge there have been at several  major breaches where the police have asked for and got meta data without the correct authorisations (i.e. a Warrant).  In at least one case the size of the request suggests that it might have been a data farming exercise rather than a targeted search related to a specific crime.

And its only going to get worse because now there is a push for the ISPs to store more data  (including unencrypted contents of emails and messaging apps)  for longer periods for all users.   This is one of the reasons why the police want IT companies to stop providing secure messaging and firms like Apple to provide back doors into their hardware.

For the record,  I don't have the McDonalds app for the same reason after I saw just how much data was being fed back from that app and if I could completely turn off Google on my phone I would.

Speaking about Google,  late last year I was at my nephews 18th birthday party and as usual my phone was sitting on the table.   The conversation around me turned to a some product (I forget which) which I had absolutely no interest in, had never never spoken about and had never searched for information about.  And yet the next day my social media feeds were full of ads about this particular product.   Obviously Google had reacted to the conversation that it heard via the phone.   And this was after Google said that they didn't do stuff like this.

Don't be naive about this, if the data is out there somebody will use it or abuse it.  The scary thing is the amount of data that is out there and who already has access to it.   Big Brother may not be watching everything yet but he's working on it.

 

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6 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

FYI For your entire medical record or for individual records you can choose which provider(s) can access it. This greatly reduces the potential sources of data breaches to potentially just your GP's PC.

Don't want to derail the thread...   but...  sorry...

1)  The whole point of the my health record was that all docs / hospitals could gain access to the data if necessary.  So, if you end up in hospital in an emergency, the docs there can go online and see what meds you are on, existing conditions etc.  So only allowing certain docs to see your data is counter intuitive to the whole ideology of the application - as far as I understand it...  ???

2)  Yes, it would help if changing docs.  Remove access from Doc X, allow access to Doc Y...

3)  Yes, having this Record Access Code may slightly increase the difficulty at accessing your records, but it is certainly far from secure.  You can hack into a doc's network (assuming they don't have strong encryption - most don't), then guess/hack another doc's username/password (not difficult, unfortunately) to get access to the system...  I'm not going to get into the technicalities of it - I don't fully understand them myself, but I know that I don't trust it at all

 

23 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

I don't balk at them getting it back on track.  I balk at having an app on my phone that I have no idea about what data it records and the data that it sends back to the central server.  And the more a government type person downplays that aspect the more suspicious I become.

Why? Because history has shown that various agencies will (not might) abuse access to the data.  

Today it'll be tracking you for virus notification.  Tomorrow you'll get a fine in the mail because the app has identified you as not isolating...

But the whole principle of this app is that there is nothing going back to the central server.  Only if you have been diagnosed will they access that data that has been stored on your phone...  I would hope that they would allow non-gov agencies to review the code to assure the public that the app is "safe"...

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10 hours ago, SomeTri said:

But the whole principle of this app is that there is nothing going back to the central server.  Only if you have been diagnosed will they access that data that has been stored on your phone...  I would hope that they would allow non-gov agencies to review the code to assure the public that the app is "safe"...

What some politician says its supposed to do and what it actually does right now or even some time down the track after it gets autoupdated on your phone may be 2 completely differently things.    After all, far too many apps get updated without people even being aware of it.  And once the technology is installed and permissions "granted" anything can happen.

And realistically, if you're unconscious in ICU and you're the only one who knows the passcode on your phone then the information can't be released until somebody can access the phone.  Minor (and unlikely) point I know but it outlines one of the critical limitations of the system as stated which in turn hints at a server based backend for storage. 

Like I said I don't have a problem with the app being used for its stated case.   I do have a problem with what it may used for apart from that..

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Still nowhere near as bad as Apple not giving us a choice about downloading a U2 song. 

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16 hours ago, SomeTri said:

 

Don't want to derail the thread...   but...  sorry...

1)  The whole point of the my health record was that all docs / hospitals could gain access to the data if necessary.  So, if you end up in hospital in an emergency, the docs there can go online and see what meds you are on, existing conditions etc.  So only allowing certain docs to see your data is counter intuitive to the whole ideology of the application - as far as I understand it...  ???

 

I thought the point of my health record was to save people having to repeat their medical history every time they see a new practitioner, which gets annoying when you're old, injury-prone and have moved around a lot like me

5 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

And realistically, if you're unconscious in ICU and you're the only one who knows the passcode on your phone then the information can't be released until somebody can access the phone.  Minor (and unlikely) point I know but it outlines one of the critical limitations of the system as stated which in turn hints at a server based backend for storage. 

 

Surely they wouldn't wait until you're unconscious in ICU before accessing the data and alerting potential contacts - they would do it as soon as you test positive

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I do like the irony of the cruise ships saying they have nowhere to go, after being registered in land locked tax havens for years. 
Gotta feel for the poor buggers :lol: 

 

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Legally the lawyers for have a field day if they made the app mandatory 

00D3DE69-6A10-42E3-B4EF-A0DB5F332384.png

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56 minutes ago, -H- said:

Surely they wouldn't wait until you're unconscious in ICU before accessing the data and alerting potential contacts - they would do it as soon as you test positive

Assuming they actually test you beforehand.  But hopefully they've learned lessons from the Ruby Princess.

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Troy Hunt had a decent tweet thread on why we should use the app, if some conditions are met. 


He is a pretty dang trustworthy source if you ask me. 
Im still heavily NO at this stage, but a little more open. 

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For those who are saying no you should check your Strava and Google privacy settings as both of those companies collect location data, particularly Google. If you have the Google location history turned on the following link will give you a very detailed map of where you have been with your phone.

http://www.google.com/maps/timeline

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Haha I just did that and it told me I was motorcycling this arvo - I think I need a better motorcycle in that case 😂

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8 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

Assuming they actually test you beforehand.  But hopefully they've learned lessons from the Ruby Princess.

The app doesn't send anything to any server. You give them permission to access your information when you are diagnosed and they ask for it. I mean the poor FBI can't even figure out how to unlock an apple phone for crying out loud.  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/roger-mcnamee-defends-apple-refusal-to-unlock-iphones-for-doj.html

Of course, you could say the app "could" send info without you knowing. But that's true for Apple and google and any number of technology players so unless you don't use a smartphone what you're suggesting is very inconsistent. 

Please tell me you at least don't have Google home and stay off Facebook 😂

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10 hours ago, dazaau said:

Please tell me you at least don't have Google home and stay off Facebook 😂

IMO there is a big difference between opting in to a web page or system that has tracking capabilities and being forced into a specific tracking system by the Government for little proven/provable benefit. 

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Maybe the question needs to be phrased, would you opt into the ap to increase your free will?  Be interesting to see what the results are when Free Will is the main consideration instead of privacy

We all seem to be fine at the moment with free will being restricted, but privacy - no way...

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10 hours ago, dazaau said:

The app doesn't send anything to any server.

That's what I read as well, but if you listened to Sky News this morning it was a big discussion on how they are trying to get us to sign up to the App that "sends all our data to a big server", and that the government can't be trusted with it.

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48 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

That's what I read as well, but if you listened to Sky News this morning it was a big discussion on how they are trying to get us to sign up to the App that "sends all our data to a big server", and that the government can't be trusted with it.

It is disappointing, but not surprising, that Sky News would be reporting incorrect information. Did they also mention that Covid was caused by 5G 😜. All of the information that has been released about the app is that the data will only be stored on your own phone and it will not be location data.

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2 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

Did they also mention that Covid was caused by 5G 😜.

No, but earlier in the week there were 2 separate discussions on 2 different shows where they were talking about the distinct possibility that this has all been a plot by the Chinese to bring the world economy to its knees, then they can start to buy up everything.

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11 hours ago, dazaau said:

The app doesn't send anything to any server.

I havn't seen the source code so I don't know for certain and I doubt you have either so I can't see how you can state this as fact.

Until the code is open sourced (which I doubt it will be), we will have absolutely no idea what the app is doing and how it is doing it.   It may be legit but given I have politicians telling me what it is and isn't doing,  I'm suspicious.

11 hours ago, dazaau said:

Please tell me you at least don't have Google home and stay off Facebook 😂

I don't have Google Home and I have the Location services are turned off the media giants don't track me either.

14 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Apparently I havn't existed since early 2018. 😀

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