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Toolish

Running Every Day -> Tri training

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Sorry for the wall of text to come, I wanted to ensure everything was in context.

 

After about 3 years of doing stuff all training and getting fat I decided it was time to do something about it and running is the easiest discipline to fit in so 30 days ago I decided I was going to run for at least 30 minutes each day for as long as I could.  I have found some mojo in it, got the attitude of my run is going to happen, just a matter of how instead of finding excuses.  Ran in 40 degree heat, ran in dust storms, and added a little bit of structure to the week.  I have also gone from 103kg to 98kg (still lots to do there)

 

Currently weekly structure is based on Jack Daniels running paces based of a 24:17 5km I ran a couple of weeks ago.

 Monday - 8km at Marathon Pace

Tuesday- 3 x 5 min @ interval pace with 5 min recovery

Wednesday - 9km Easy Pace Long Run

Thursday - 1km Warm Up, 5km Threshold, 1km cool down

Friday - 7km Easy

Saturday - Park Run

Sunday - 8km Marathon Pace

 

That ends up being a 45-50km week at the moment and I am working up by 2-3 km per week I am feeling the fatigue in my legs but I am not sure if that is due to the volume of running, I ran a total of 500 km last year and have already done 230 km this year so a fair increase!

 

My last triathlon was Challenge Shepparton 2016 where I did about 5:30.  Short term Goal is a half ironman next summer (not sure which one yet, Geelong is leading at this stage) longer term is iromnan 2-3 years down the track.

 

So that is the back story.  Now the question.

 

I would like to keep the run volume, but I am not sure 7 sessions a week is sustainable as well as adding swimming and biking.  I would like to gradually introduce both of the other disciplines but I am really not sure how to change the above to suit it and keep the volume.  Initially I would like to add say 2 x 45 min bike sessions and 2 x 30 min swim to the above and find a way to drop the running back to 5 days a week.

 

Any thoughts welcome!

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2-3km runs add up at the end of the week. I see little value in bricks except for this - it allows for that run volume to maintain build. Many will say do not run 2 days in a row because of injury, my view so far (I reserve the right to change as I move closer to 50) - more frequency, lower intensity is just as safe if not safer. So - there is no problem running 6-7 times a week, just pull back volume and intensity. I.e I hardly run near marathon pace, it’s just too much. Use short 2-3 easy runs off bike,  to pull etc so it fits into program. 

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Way too much faster stuff in there.  Most of it should be easy pace with a little quality stuff.

Keep the overall time the same (distance will decrease) but only do two quality sessions at most of which parkrun could be one.  Be mindful of becoming a "streaker" and take a day or two off running off you feel like you need it.  Swim and bike can then fit in.

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32 minutes ago, Toolish said:

 

 

I would like to keep the run volume, but I am not sure 7 sessions a week is sustainable as well as adding swimming and biking.  I would like to gradually introduce both of the other disciplines but I am really not sure how to change the above to suit it and keep the volume.  Initially I would like to add say 2 x 45 min bike sessions and 2 x 30 min swim to the above and find a way to drop the running back to 5 days a week.

 

Any thoughts welcome!

It depends how injury prone you are. I played 30 seasons of rugby and have seen more people injured running than I did in rugby. Lots of stress fractures, back issues, bulged discs, Achilles/hamstring/glute tendonitis, all nasty injuries that can take months to heal, many never return to running. Generally it's people who haven't done much running that suddenly increase their volume and/or people that do a lot of intensity. 

So I would be careful how you go. Ease back on the fast sessions, do a longer, easy run on Sundays and go from there. 

If injuries are not a problem, I would say stick with your run volume (or even higher). That will help more with your weight loss. Some people find biking helps with their run fitness, I think a trannie was 2nd overall in Cairns with 9.02(?) or a low run volume of about 40km/week. That's not me. 40km/week does not much more than maintain my current run fitness. I can bike 0km/week or 300km/week unless I run 55km/week+ my running will not improve.

So some may disagree, but I would suggest sticking to a roughly similar run program, longer easy run, less fast stuff and work your riding and swimming around the running. i.e if it means you only ride 1/2 times a week, but run 6/7, so be it. Not a well balanced program, but I think you could still go well and you will be enjoying your training.

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 Monday - 8km at easy pace (or rest day as you did a long run the day before)

Tuesday- 3 x 5 min @ interval pace with 2 min recovery (5min recovery too much?) add 2km WU, 1km CD

Wednesday - 9km Easy Pace Long Run

Thursday - 1km Warm Up, 5km Threshold, 1km cool down

Friday - 7km Easy

Saturday - Park Run + 1km WU and 1km CD

Sunday - 14km+ easy (conversational pace, for you 6min/km)

 

I would be careful with doing the Tuesday and Thursday sessions as well as PR which is also a speed session. Perhaps drop at least one of those (for the time being) or change it to an easy run. So 4 easy 2 fast 1 rest day or 5 easy 2 fast. 

Edited by zed

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Drop a run and do some strength training (not stuff from Youtube or Instagram) 

Not only will it benefit you in the long term with life as you age but it will also help your running   

Edited by Fitness Buddy
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I ache just reading that! But I’m 51, so there is that, plus I’m as fat as you and broke one of my hips 5 years ago. I’m actually aiming to simply run twice a week with another 3 elliptical sessions ...

Anyhow, If your body can sustain 7 runs a week, then 5 runs a week as part of a tri program is sustainable and that’s what I’d do in your shoes. Running is the last event in a triathlon so it’s probably harder for that reason alone than the other two because of the accumulated fatigue by the time you get off the bike. So it’s worth keeping up investing in run training if your body can handle it. Best bang for buck in triathlon training, IMO.

Simply drop the Friday and Monday runs and swap out park run for a 5km brick run off the bike at the end of your weekly long ride. Build the 8km marathon paced Sunday run to something between 90 minutes and two hours over the next 4-6 months. 
 

Good luck.

Edited by Andrew #1

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definitely have a day off.  add 3km easy before your park run and 3km after and Sunday off. your body needs to absorb the training. 

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8 hours ago, Toolish said:

Currently weekly structure is based on Jack Daniels running paces based of a 24:17 5km I ran a couple of weeks ago.

Monday - 8km at Marathon Pace
Tuesday- 3 x 5 min @ interval pace with 5 min recovery
Wednesday - 9km Easy Pace Long Run
Thursday - 1km Warm Up, 5km Threshold, 1km cool down
Friday - 7km Easy
Saturday - Park Run
Sunday - 8km Marathon Pace

.....

My last triathlon was Challenge Shepparton 2016 where I did about 5:30.  Short term Goal is a half ironman next summer (not sure which one yet, Geelong is leading at this stage) longer term is iromnan 2-3 years down the track.

....

Initially I would like to add say 2 x 45 min bike sessions and 2 x 30 min swim to the above and find a way to drop the running back to 5 days a week.

I would highly recommend an easy week every 4th week (recovery).

I would change the Park Run from weekly to once every 4 weeks (still gives you a gauge on progress). This will help free up your week to fit in other sessions. So you can bike on Saturday and move the long run from Wednesday to Sunday.  Allows room for your Saturday Ride and Sunday Run to both extend in their duration.

I would change the Monday Marathon Pace run to an easy run (or rest day). Wednesday run can be dropped for your other bike session. Swim sessions are usually easy to slot in (typically don't affect your ability to run or ride on the same day).

Tuesdays and Thursdays can alternate between Intervals/Threshold, Marathon and Hilly Runs.

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Agree with @Stikman

Too much fast running. 

 

HIM fitness is not only a good run. It's swim fitness which gives you the best chance of a good ride which when you are swim/bike fit which transfer to a good run. 

 

I would not have a rest day. Just remove most of the fast/tempo running. Have one hard run a week. Everything else Easy, then there's a "chance" of running lots. 

 

Good luck with it 

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Thanks everyone for the replies so far.

 

I should have mentioned park run is done with my 8 year old son, so it is usually about a 30 minute 5km, not a flat out run for me.   Although he is getting faster all the time so the session is getting harder.

 

I will keep trying to digest the rest of these posts, some good stuff there thanks all!

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Run 25k on sat and 25k on Sunday.  
 

have the weekdays off. 

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A couple of weeks down the track and the running every day is gone, trying to get more structure in the running and include the other disciplines.

So to evolve from the original question I am working to dropping it down to 4 sessions a week, but I am not exactly sure how they should look.  Long term (18-36 months) goal is ironman, shorter term is a 70.3 and either a half or full open marathon.

Current plan is below.

 

Monday 7.5km Easy

Tuesday - 7.5km approx - 3 x 5 min @ interval pace, 4 min recovery (reducing the recovery each week)

Wednesday - 14km Easy

 Thursday -8km @ marathon pace

Saturday - 13km Easy - Parkrun plus a run commute

 

I am thinking on moving Tuesdays session to Monday, making Wednesday a run including marathon pace intervals, making Thursday easy and increasing distance on these runs to get the volume I need.

 

e.g. 

Monday - 8km approx - 4 x 4 min @ interval pace, 3 min recovery (reducing the recovery each week)

Wednesday - 14km Approx - 5 x 2km @ marathon pace, 1 min recovery 

 Thursday -10km Easy

Saturday - 16km Easy - Parkrun plus a run commute

 

Any thoughts on that as a possible run structure are welcome.  I would like Saturday to be longer but I am working that up gradually.

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On 10 March 2020 at 9:28 AM, Toolish said:

I am thinking on moving Tuesdays session to Monday, making Wednesday a run including marathon pace intervals, making Thursday easy and increasing distance on these runs to get the volume I need.

 

e.g. 

Monday - 8km approx - 4 x 4 min @ interval pace, 3 min recovery (reducing the recovery each week)

Wednesday - 14km Approx - 5 x 2km @ marathon pace, 1 min recovery 

 Thursday -10km Easy

Saturday - 16km Easy - Parkrun plus a run commute

 

Any thoughts on that as a possible run structure are welcome.  I would like Saturday to be longer but I am working that up gradually.

I think you're on the right track. Gradually increasing the distance on you're Thursday easy run could put you in overuse injury territory if you overdo the volume or miss judge your easy pace. A consideration is to do a short run off the bike after your long ride if that is on Sunday. This will give you some extra volume and condition your body for race day. 

Just what total mileage per week are you hoping to achieve? 

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12 hours ago, Greyman said:

I think you're on the right track. Gradually increasing the distance on you're Thursday easy run could put you in overuse injury territory if you overdo the volume or miss judge your easy pace. A consideration is to do a short run off the bike after your long ride if that is on Sunday. This will give you some extra volume and condition your body for race day. 

Just what total mileage per week are you hoping to achieve? 

 

I have ramped from stuff all running to about 50km per week.

8 weeks ago 5km

7 weeks ago 13km

6 weeks ago 31 km

5 weeks ago 40 km

4 weeks ago 40 km

3 weeks ago 46km

2 weeks ago 52km 

Last Week 50km 

This week so far 30km 

Happy to stay at around 50km but do it with a longer long run, if it ends up being more volume so be it but at the moment I am trying to get more used to the 50km.  Up until a couple of weeks ago I had been doing the 7 days a week running, last week was 6 days, this week should be 5 and progressing to 4 days.  

My long ride at the moment is 45 minutes!  The reason to not run every day is to give room for the other sports.

Easy pace I am basing on the vdot formula.  It seems conservative when fresh, but when fatigued it is pretty close I reckon!

 

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10 hours ago, Toolish said:

 

I have ramped from stuff all running to about 50km per week.

8 weeks ago 5km

7 weeks ago 13km

6 weeks ago 31 km

5 weeks ago 40 km

4 weeks ago 40 km

3 weeks ago 46km

2 weeks ago 52km 

Last Week 50km 

This week so far 30km 

Happy to stay at around 50km but do it with a longer long run, if it ends up being more volume so be it but at the moment I am trying to get more used to the 50km.  Up until a couple of weeks ago I had been doing the 7 days a week running, last week was 6 days, this week should be 5 and progressing to 4 days.  

My long ride at the moment is 45 minutes!  The reason to not run every day is to give room for the other sports.

Easy pace I am basing on the vdot formula.  It seems conservative when fresh, but when fatigued it is pretty close I reckon!

 

Good progression. Settling on a run total you are comfortable with and cope with around your other training and the rest of your life is the key. You will keep running if it fits your life and you aren't struggling to fit it in. Some people will tell you to do more if you want the get better. But there's always a trade off against your swimming and cycling training, plus the most important part of the whole deal - recovery. 

Train, recover, live your life and arrive at the start line fit and healthy. That's the ultimate challenge. 

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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 9:28 AM, Toolish said:

A couple of weeks down the track and the running every day is gone, trying to get more structure in the running and include the other disciplines.

A wise man on this forum once said no man over 50 should run consecutive days.

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On 13/03/2020 at 10:15 AM, Toolish said:

I have ramped from stuff all running to about 50km per week.

8 weeks ago 5km

7 weeks ago 13km

6 weeks ago 31 km

5 weeks ago 40 km

4 weeks ago 40 km

3 weeks ago 46km

2 weeks ago 52km 

Last Week 50km 

This week so far 30km 

I'm amazed you haven't got injured! (well done!).

But I'd say even 50K a week is huge run volume for someone wanting doing triathlon. Even the fastest guys in my club don't run that volume!

 

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Swap Wed and Thur would be much better. Only a day between your two session workouts is too short.

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4 hours ago, CEM said:

Swap Wed and Thur would be much better. Only a day between your two session workouts is too short.

Thanks for the input, makes sense!

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You won't get injured by keeping the frequency, especially since you've done it for a while now. You injure yourself by doing intensity, especially running. I would keep most of the running at low intensity (high zone 1 and low zone 2) except for one longer run done at Daniels marathon pace. Maaaaybe one higher intensity session per week building from tempo/threshold/Vo2 session and see how it goes, but I'd keep most of my higher intensity stuff for the swim foremost and the bike training.

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