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Peter

Pros posting their drug tests (is this a thing now?)

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It's the result of a lot of back and forth between Jan and Uli. Uli has been asking lots of questions of Jan around doping and Bahrain 13. To his credit, Jan is responding. It's all very civil.

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Meaningless. A lot of dope is out your system within hours and you get 3 chances of missing tests. Pretty much impossible to catch them.

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4 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

Unless they have Bio passport doesn't mean a whole lot. You would have to be very unlucky or stupid to test positive. 

Yup. Sun Yang was both and still looks like he's going to get off with a slap on the wrist.

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Meaningless. A lot of dope is out your system within hours and you get 3 chances of missing tests. Pretty much impossible to catch them.

So whats the solution?

surely this is better than nothing. 

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There is general consensus that it is not 100% See Patrik's post for example. As Peter said though, it's better than nothing and exposing the testing (or lack thereof). Cam Wurf has also put his up.

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

So whats the solution?

surely this is better than nothing. 

The solution is daily tests. This isn’t ever going to happen unless someone makes a huge investment....... $$$$$$

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2 hours ago, IronmanFoz said:

The solution is daily tests. This isn’t ever going to happen unless someone makes a huge investment....... $$$$$$

They aren't pin cushions

 

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28 minutes ago, Prince said:

why post their results? dont they think the public would know if they tested positive??

I think its more to prove they are being tested.

Did this all come from Tim O who came second in kona and he said he hadn't been tested in 3 years?

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

So whats the solution?

surely this is better than nothing. 

Marginally better than nothing.. not sure if there is a solution.
 

Innocent before being proven guilty, so you don’t want to start pointing fingers when people have sudden improvements in their performances, but perhaps performance is something that needs to be monitored and  statistically analysed. E.G Michelle Smith, competing at the highest level, but achieving mediocre results for 10+ years, then suddenly gets 3 golds... perhaps we need to stop tip toeing around people that we suspect and call it how it is. What we know is that it is extremely rare for someone to suddenly develop into a Olympic medalist after years of mediocre performances. So if it happens, they get called out as a drug cheat. Sucks if that person is innocent, but chances are 99% of the time we would be right. Justin Gatlin is free to race and almost immune from criticism. He has served his ban, he’s now running quicker times at 38 “clean” than he did at 21 when doping and we or the media have to accept he’s clean, or at least not accuse him of doping. **** it. Call him a a drug cheat, people should refuse to race against him, or do what Mack Horton did. We will never find that smoking gun. 

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If that’s your theory. Ie. Smith. 

Then I must be on drugs.  

Im honestly the fastest and fittest I’ve been since starting in the sport back in 1994.

and by a fair bit. 

Your theory doesn’t fly. Sorry. 

 

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7 hours ago, Peter said:

If that’s your theory. Ie. Smith. 

Then I must be on drugs.  

Im honestly the fastest and fittest I’ve been since starting in the sport back in 1994.

and by a fair bit. 

Your theory doesn’t fly. Sorry. 

 

I thought you were better back in the day.

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40 and 50 somethings can get Tim and or motivation to train that they may not have had when younger or when kids quite young.

sub 5 half 215 od 10:xx im sub 19 5 k and sub 40 10k are all quite doable.

if this was a sub 430 half get asada

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15 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

I thought you were better back in the day.

No the sport was harder back in the day.  

Probably explains why I’m faster now. The sports easier.  Haha 

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9 hours ago, Peter said:

If that’s your theory. Ie. Smith. 

Then I must be on drugs.  

Im honestly the fastest and fittest I’ve been since starting in the sport back in 1994.

and by a fair bit. 

Your theory doesn’t fly. Sorry. 

 

Part time middle aged age grouper involved in endurance sports vs full time elite swimmer, in her prime. Two very different things. And as Crowie has demonstrated you can succeed in long course triathlon even well into your 40s. Can’t do that with sprinting unless you’re doping like Gatlin.  Smith was ranked 70th In the world for 200 fly and had been similarly ranked for 10 years before becoming no 1 in the world. That just doesn’t happen to professional athletes. Well it can happen. But it would be highly unusual.

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Part time middle aged age grouper involved in endurance sports vs full time elite swimmer, in her prime. Two very different things. And as Crowie has demonstrated you can succeed in long course triathlon even well into your 40s. Can’t do that with sprinting unless you’re doping like Gatlin.  Smith was ranked 70th In the world for 200 fly and had been similarly ranked for 10 years before becoming no 1 in the world. That just doesn’t happen to professional athletes. Well it can happen. But it would be highly unusual.

Didn't she initially say that the improvement came from rope climbing & similar exercises? 

David Walsh has gone to the dark side, but to be fair to him, he was one of the journalists that stood up back then - I think he was one of the first to call Smith out, well before she got done for tampering with her sample.

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13 minutes ago, Nick777 said:

Didn't she initially say that the improvement came from rope climbing & similar exercises? 

David Walsh has gone to the dark side, but to be fair to him, he was one of the journalists that stood up back then - I think he was one of the first to call Smith out, well before she got done for tampering with her sample.

Yeah we need more David Walshes in the world. What do you mean he's gone to the dark side?

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26 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah we need more David Walshes in the world. What do you mean he's gone to the dark side?

Got in with the Sky/Ineos boys. 

Walsh went after Armstrong for years, and as Bosco mentioned above - Froome is as suspicious as they come...but for some reason he gave Froome/Sky a pass.

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5 hours ago, Nick777 said:

Mo Farah's progression nearly mirrors Michelle Smith's. Found something special at 27 (Salazar).

Not sure I agree. He just made a steady progression, was 6th in the world for 5000m at 23. He started seeing improvements in his performance when he moved in with a bunch of Kenyans and mirrored their training. Smith was 60th and went to first in a short space of time. And Mo Farah was a student, training part time till he was 20 something.

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6 hours ago, Nick777 said:

Didn't she initially say that the improvement came from rope climbing & similar exercises? 

Think she claimed it was diet...

And her success came very shortly after meeting (And later marrying) a former althete known for drug cheating...

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5 hours ago, Nick777 said:

Got in with the Sky/Ineos boys. 

Walsh went after Armstrong for years, and as Bosco mentioned above - Froome is as suspicious as they come...but for some reason he gave Froome/Sky a pass.

Maybe he couldn't find any evidence, but for Armstrong there was

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17 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Maybe he couldn't find any evidence, but for Armstrong there was

There wasn't much evidence with Froome's case. He was permitted to have Salbutamol in his system, the higher than permitted level could be put down to physiological issues, but importantly the testing was deeply flawed, returning 15% false positives. In other words, a waste of time. 

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19 hours ago, zed said:

Not sure I agree. He just made a steady progression, was 6th in the world for 5000m at 23. He started seeing improvements in his performance when he moved in with a bunch of Kenyans and mirrored their training. Smith was 60th and went to first in a short space of time. And Mo Farah was a student, training part time till he was 20 something.

Nah. Coe was a student when he started breaking world records. Farah had done nothing to suggest that he was capable of turning into what he became. Some of his early training info has been posted online, the 'wasn't taking it seriously' is basically straight from the Armstrong playbook.

He lied about his connections with Jama Aden, changed training countries when OOC testing started, claimed he knew nothing about the Salazar rumours... if sport has taught us anything, it is that dots are usually connectable. 

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I wonder how long before we see leading age groupers doing this en mass. 

Is it a position of defence or an admission of guilt? 

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On 21/12/2019 at 8:34 AM, Nick777 said:

Got in with the Sky/Ineos boys. 

Walsh went after Armstrong for years, and as Bosco mentioned above - Froome is as suspicious as they come...but for some reason he gave Froome/Sky a pass.

One of David Brailsford's, (GM of Sky/Ineos) main goals when setting up the Sky team was to produce a TDF winner, that won clean. They were very tough on who they selected for their initial team, anyone who had been banned previously for doping were not considered for roles, even Shane Kelly who applied for a coaching role was not considered. Everyone's biological passport was studied thoroughly by medical teams and any anomalies meant they didn't make it onto the team, even guys who had never been banned or even suspected, any issues with their tests, missed tests, associations with suspect medicos meant they were gone.

Also they conduct stringent internal testing on a regular basis, building up the biological passport, so even if an athlete was doping with a substance with a very short half life (i.e hours rather than days) they are going to get busted. They cannot miss any tests. Compare this to WADA testing, which are not done regularly and the athlete can miss 3 tests per year, which really gives them carte blance to dope as long as it's done so they are "clean" come race day where they could be subjected to a random test and not be able to avoid it.

So if any doping within Sky has gone on (which I don't believe it has) it has not been team sanctioned doping, more down to the individual. And if it was ongoing, their medical team would have picked up on the anomalies in the biological passport. 

 

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10 minutes ago, zed said:

So if any doping within Sky has gone on (which I don't believe it has) it has not been team sanctioned doping, more down to the individual. 

Or maybe a rogue team doctor?

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16 hours ago, Greyman said:

I wonder how long before we see leading age groupers doing this en mass. 

Is it a position of defence or an admission of guilt? 

Tough crowd, show you are clean and it is taken that you are dirty.

are they meant to post positive tests

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On 22/12/2019 at 8:55 AM, Nick777 said:

Nah. Coe was a student when he started breaking world records. Farah had done nothing to suggest that he was capable of turning into what he became. Some of his early training info has been posted online, the 'wasn't taking it seriously' is basically straight from the Armstrong playbook.

He lied about his connections with Jama Aden, changed training countries when OOC testing started, claimed he knew nothing about the Salazar rumours... if sport has taught us anything, it is that dots are usually connectable. 

Certainly sudden spikes in performance are red flags. However not everyone follows the stereotypical path of top junior, college scholarship, Olympic finals in their early 20s then medalist a few years later. There are some that follow different paths, athletes that were born with some freakish physiological ability and sometimes that ability doesn't surface until they're a bit older e.g Chrissie Wellington.  

I'd have to look a bit deeper into Farah's background and the stuff you mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. Usually when there are multiple "dots" the person is up to no good. The multiple missed tests weren't good. But then the British press tend to be a bit protective of their accused athletes (as do we), so it's hard to know the truth. I remember reading he was in the shower for one missed test and another he had the stereo up, plausible explanations, but that's the DailyMail....
 

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On 22/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, Nick777 said:

Nah. Coe was a student when he started breaking world records. Farah had done nothing to suggest that he was capable of turning into what he became. Some of his early training info has been posted online, the 'wasn't taking it seriously' is basically straight from the Armstrong playbook.

That's a pretty strict measure of whether an athlete is likely to be clean or otherwise later in their career.

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40 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

That's a pretty strict measure of whether an athlete is likely to be clean or otherwise later in their career.

I like to believe the best in people, so unless there is a smoking gun, I tend to think they're innocent. And Seb Coe has done a lot for athletics. I would be surprised if he had doped. But playing the devil's advocate for a minute, his 800m WR set in 1981 would have been good enough for gold at this years world champs and Rio Olympics. Actually every Olympics, bar one (London) his 1.41 would have gotten him gold. This was a time set almost 40 years ago, you think of the advances we've made with nutrition, training, recovery, coaching, technology. Coe was a student, being coached by his Dad, no sponsorship, no money, physio, dietitian, professional coach etc A remarkable achievement considering the time and also considering he was up against the state sponsored doping programs, prevalent in Russia and Eastern bloc countries.  I like to think he was just a unique athlete with a freakish ability, but I can understand a more cynical person thinking otherwise. 

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17 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Yep let’s just smear mo farrah. Lucky he’s not from the shire or the artillery would be launching

Yeah. It's a tough one. Innocent before proven guilty doesn't apply to sport, but there still needs to be sufficient evidence before we start labelling someone a drug cheat.

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On 21/12/2019 at 8:34 AM, Nick777 said:

Got in with the Sky/Ineos boys. 

Walsh went after Armstrong for years, and as Bosco mentioned above - Froome is as suspicious as they come...but for some reason he gave Froome/Sky a pass.

Why is Froome suspicious?

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17 hours ago, Greyman said:

I wonder how long before we see leading age groupers doing this en mass. 

 

Nah I think it would take a relatively dysfunctional person to dope, someone with a personality disorder. That's an age grouper. Pro, different story. I believe many are pressured/coerced into doping. Agers take it upon themselves.

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Froome has a ‘failed’ drug test with a nothing to find here and lucky he got over that parasite thing that explains lack of ‘high’ level results at young age, which was the basis for your initial guilty until innocent hypothesis Zed. On Team Sky, anyone following the going ons with testosterone of last few months - do you honestly hold a nothing to see here view? 
 

 

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PS - I don’t hold Australia’s on pedestal. I think we lead the world through 90’s and 00’s on sports performance where sports science could help. Cycling, rowing, swimming, triathlon etc etc etc 

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2 hours ago, zed said:

I like to believe the best in people, so unless there is a smoking gun, I tend to think they're innocent. And Seb Coe has done a lot for athletics. I would be surprised if he had doped. But playing the devil's advocate for a minute, his 800m WR set in 1981 would have been good enough for gold at this years world champs and Rio Olympics. Actually every Olympics, bar one (London) his 1.41 would have gotten him gold. This was a time set almost 40 years ago, you think of the advances we've made with nutrition, training, recovery, coaching, technology. Coe was a student, being coached by his Dad, no sponsorship, no money, physio, dietitian, professional coach etc A remarkable achievement considering the time and also considering he was up against the state sponsored doping programs, prevalent in Russia and Eastern bloc countries.  I like to think he was just a unique athlete with a freakish ability, but I can understand a more cynical person thinking otherwise. 

He was a freakish athlete and he came long in an era when the "the mile" was king of the track and club races. His primary focus was the 800 and 1500 double at most meets growing up. Fortunately for his development as a runner, he had a great environment to grow and train in. He had high level competition week in and week out at the track, cross country and fell running. Quality training all year round. He had some great track rivals, but his nemesis was Steve Ovett, another Brit, who pushed him to higher levels. 

His father studied the great milers like Lasse Viren, Landy, Elliott and Clark plus a swag of Brit and Europeans runners who had gone before Coe. He saw in Seb the perfect build for a miler/ middle distance runner but he needed to be stronger. So they used a fitness regime using circuit exercises, off season cross country running and some weight training to build durability. Seb himself recognised the benefits of stretching and strengthening exercises after watching his sister train as a ballerina. He believed that if he could "stretch out" his stride when using a finishing surge at the end of a race he would be able to out kick his opponents to the line. If you can find the footage of his races from the late 1970's early 80's, you can see Seb's renouned home turn kicks to win races. 

I believe Seb, Steve Ovett and Steve Cram were the last of the clean middle distance track runners. I know some will say "what about such and such" but given the lack of testing and subsequent health issues a lot of those athletes have suffered, the big question mark still hangs over them. 

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9 minutes ago, Greyman said:

He was a freakish athlete and he came long in an era when the "the mile" was king of the track and club races. His primary focus was the 800 and 1500 double at most meets growing up. Fortunately for his development as a runner, he had a great environment to grow and train in. He had high level competition week in and week out at the track, cross country and fell running. Quality training all year round. He had some great track rivals, but his nemesis was Steve Ovett, another Brit, who pushed him to higher levels. 

His father studied the great milers like Lasse Viren, Landy, Elliott and Clark plus a swag of Brit and Europeans runners who had gone before Coe. He saw in Seb the perfect build for a miler/ middle distance runner but he needed to be stronger. So they used a fitness regime using circuit exercises, off season cross country running and some weight training to build durability. Seb himself recognised the benefits of stretching and strengthening exercises after watching his sister train as a ballerina. He believed that if he could "stretch out" his stride when using a finishing surge at the end of a race he would be able to out kick his opponents to the line. If you can find the footage of his races from the late 1970's early 80's, you can see Seb's renouned home turn kicks to win races. 

I believe Seb, Steve Ovett and Steve Cram were the last of the clean middle distance track runners. I know some will say "what about such and such" but given the lack of testing and subsequent health issues a lot of those athletes have suffered, the big question mark still hangs over them. 

In one post with no evidence you smash every middle distance runner since those guys.

well played

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7 hours ago, zed said:

One of David Brailsford's, (GM of Sky/Ineos) main goals when setting up the Sky team was to produce a TDF winner, that won clean. They were very tough on who they selected for their initial team, anyone who had been banned previously for doping were not considered for roles, even Shane Kelly who applied for a coaching role was not considered. Everyone's biological passport was studied thoroughly by medical teams and any anomalies meant they didn't make it onto the team, even guys who had never been banned or even suspected, any issues with their tests, missed tests, associations with suspect medicos meant they were gone.

Also they conduct stringent internal testing on a regular basis, building up the biological passport, so even if an athlete was doping with a substance with a very short half life (i.e hours rather than days) they are going to get busted. They cannot miss any tests. Compare this to WADA testing, which are not done regularly and the athlete can miss 3 tests per year, which really gives them carte blance to dope as long as it's done so they are "clean" come race day where they could be subjected to a random test and not be able to avoid it.

So if any doping within Sky has gone on (which I don't believe it has) it has not been team sanctioned doping, more down to the individual. And if it was ongoing, their medical team would have picked up on the anomalies in the biological passport. 

 

you've swallowed the Kool-Aid... 

Their doc, Freeman is currently being popped for ordering testosterone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Freeman_(physician)

Brailsford's 'marginal gains' was a smokescreen, things he claimed that were 'cutting edge were already being undertaken on a routine basis.

Wiggins took a substance (triamcinolone) for 'allergies', but only just before the tour every year, with a review stating that it was for "not to treat medical need, but to improve his power to weight ratio ahead of the race".

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