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Peter

Trans woman won womens 400 hurdles after competing as man

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Yeah, no. If we must then rename men to open. If you are not clearly born a woman you can race in the open category. 

It's madness

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What do you actually need to do to claim being a female if born as a male? 

Say you are thinking about it?

take tablets?

actually have an operation?

i honestly dont know. 

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5 minutes ago, Peter said:

What do you actually need to do to claim being a female if born as a male? 

Sorry but nothing.

Compete in a skill sport like darts or become a world class referee or compete as you were born.

I'm fine that you may not identify as what ever you were born and wish to change but when it comes to competing than sad sad too bad.

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I completely support the lgbtiq community, but I really do find this a troubling and confusing issue.  Fail as a male, win as a female.  When we had the local issue of Hannah mouncey, many were claiming the AFL didn't give her enough consideration, I guess because they found against her.  But I actually thought the AFL actually handled a really really tough issue well.  It just feels like some people are after the fame first and foremost.

How many times have we seen people say that just because someone isn't taking performance enhancing drugs while competing, the benefit they received from them in off season training gave them a distinct advantage later when competing "clean".  This kinda is like that.  Have we seen a woman now competing as a man, and being successful at it?

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20 minutes ago, Peter said:

What do you actually need to do to claim being a female if born as a male? 

Say you are thinking about it?

take tablets?

actually have an operation?

i honestly dont know. 

Go to cycling new podcasts episode 373 released 3rd May. 

Interview that explains the process and requirements 

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23 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

Go to cycling new podcasts episode 373 released 3rd May. 

Interview that explains the process and requirements 

Can you just tell us all? 

We would hold you to your words if you get a few wrong. 

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53 minutes ago, Peter said:

What do you actually need to do to claim being a female if born as a male? 

Say you are thinking about it?

take tablets?

actually have an operation?

i honestly dont know. 

 

30 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

Go to cycling new podcasts episode 373 released 3rd May. 

Interview that explains the process and requirements 

 

6 minutes ago, Peter said:

Can you just tell us all? 

We would hold you to your words if you get a few wrong. 

You're so impatient. Surprised you're even considering it.

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18 minutes ago, Peter said:

Can you just tell us all? 

We would hold you to your words if you get a few wrong. 

I am not going to try and summarise on such a sensitive and important topic. 

Also I honestly didn’t listen very hard

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14 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

 

You're so impatient.

Typical woman!! :lol: 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

What do you actually need to do to claim being a female if born as a male? 

It depends on the level of sport involved and will vary from country to country and sport to sport.

NCAA - CeCe must have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder & taking hormone suppressants for over a year to compete as female.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

Edited by Tyno
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1 hour ago, goughy said:

When we had the local issue of Hannah mouncey, many were claiming the AFL didn't give her enough consideration, I guess because they found against her.  But I actually thought the AFL actually handled a really really tough issue well.

I thought the AFL's decision was peculiar and inconsistent.

Mouncey deemed ineligible for the AFLW draft, but it was fine for her to play the game at a lower level of competition.

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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

 

 

You're so impatient. Surprised you're even considering it.

I was asking for AP.  I know how much she wants to win her age group in Kona. 

Edited by Peter

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9 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

I thought the AFL's decision was peculiar and inconsistent.

Mouncey deemed ineligible for the AFLW draft, but it was fine for her to play the game at a lower level of competition.

Were those competitions run by different bodies? Say state/territory vs national?

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1 hour ago, Tyno said:

NCAA - CeCe must have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder & taking hormone suppressants for over a year to compete as female.

So, train for 35/40/50 years with testosterone, build muscle and endurance. Take hormone suppressants for 12.5 months, compete as a female and win medals? Seems a little unfair. 

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34 minutes ago, goughy said:

Were those competitions run by different bodies? Say state/territory vs national?

Yep, i think the inconsistency was part of the issue  

Was it in the ACT league? 

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7 minutes ago, Turts said:

So, train for 35/40/50 years with testosterone, build muscle and endurance. Take hormone suppressants for 12.5 months, compete as a female and win medals? Seems a little unfair. 

Fairness isn't a clear notion.

If CeCe was going through the exact same process, but coming 2nd last, no one would give a rats.

Is it fair to her that there are numerous threads and opinion pieces on her life now?

Peter's thread title is insensitive to say the least, but it wouldn't be the top 50 negative things CeCe has to put up with because she's trans.

It's a complex thing and I'm sure we aren't going to provide much insight.

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7 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

there is either tackle or not.

No.

That's not correct and is unacceptable.

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1 minute ago, Tyno said:

Fairness isn't a clear notion.

If CeCe was going through the exact same process, but coming 2nd last, no one would give a rats.

Is it fair to her that there are numerous threads and opinion pieces on her life now?

Peter's thread title is insensitive to say the least, but it wouldn't be the top 50 negative things CeCe has to put up with because she's trans.

It's a complex thing and I'm sure we aren't going to provide much insight.

Agreed. But there needs to be a delineation from higher echelons that matter and make it equitable. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Tyno said:

No.

That's not correct and is unacceptable.

so what is it, I'm sure I'm male and my gear says I am biologically

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3 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Things which are true for you, Barry, are not necessarily true for everyone.

 

so if you have male genitals you are a woman? If you want to be

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1 hour ago, Turts said:

So, train for 35/40/50 years with testosterone, build muscle and endurance. Take hormone suppressants for 12.5 months, compete as a female and win medals? Seems a little unfair. 

Probably not the main reason for transitioning. But if transitioning is so important to you then maybe you need to give up the dream of competitive/professional racing. Can't have everything I'm told. 

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1 hour ago, BarryBevan said:

so if you have male genitals you are a woman? If you want to be

That can be the case. 

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2 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

so if you have male genitals you are a woman? If you want to be

Pretty much. There are more people than you would believe who are born with ambiguous genitalia. One of the worst things that can happen to that child is if the parents decide which way surgery should go to cement their fate as either a male or female.

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6 hours ago, The Customer said:

Pretty much. There are more people than you would believe who are born with ambiguous genitalia. One of the worst things that can happen to that child is if the parents decide which way surgery should go to cement their fate as either a male or female.

ambiguous i understand what if it is clear

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6 hours ago, The Customer said:

Pretty much. There are more people than you would believe who are born with ambiguous genitalia. One of the worst things that can happen to that child is if the parents decide which way surgery should go to cement their fate as either a male or female.

We know one, and I'm pretty sure the parents made the wrong choice when they went for female....yet her birth certificate says male.

As to the OP, yeah this is BS, but timely as I'm currently reading Ben Elton's book 'identity crisis', a great satire on how mad the world has gone on all this PC/outrage/anger/virtue signalling crap.

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1 minute ago, zed said:

There's a transgender MMA fighter, used to be a man now fighting as a woman. Luckily they won't give her a license..

 

FTFY

Now, can someone please fix the title of this thread as it's deliberately misgendering someone

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

FTFY

Now, can someone please fix the title of this thread as it's deliberately misgendering someone

What to?

I (Willie) edited both this post and the title. I think the rule don't be a dick applies here. The world is changing... 

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

FTFY

Now, can someone please fix the title of this thread as it's deliberately misgendering someone

If you do that in the UK the police might just come and pay you a visit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-47638527

A journalist claims she is being investigated by police for using the wrong pronoun for a transgender woman.

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

FTFY

Now, can someone please fix the title of this thread as it's deliberately misgendering someone

Fair play... I fixed it and it's now factual.  

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30 minutes ago, willie said:

Fair play... I fixed it and it's now factual.  

Edited

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21 minutes ago, willie said:

Fair play... I fixed it and it's now factual.  

Factual is a nigh impossible standard here

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22 minutes ago, Peter said:

Edited

Never done this but do you need a break? 

I'm going to close this thread if we keep going down this road. 

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8 minutes ago, dazaau said:

Factual is a nigh impossible standard here

I know what you mean, but if the rules permit it and they are.playing by them that's just how it is. 

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Just now, willie said:

I know what you mean, but if the rules permit it and they are.playing by them that's just how it is. 

Interesting take on it.

 

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This is a very complicated and difficult topic, I have to say some of the comments here are a tad out of order. I wonder if the people making them have ever known / had a discussion with somebody living through the hell of gender dysphoria? As a male who has always felt like a male (cisgendered) I cannot comprehend the pure existential nightmare that it must be to inhabit a body that feels wrong.

It's important to remember that there are a significant number of people who are born intersex. Estimates range from 2% down to 0.00067%. But it is definitely more than none. So to claim that everybody is "clearly" either male or female is wrong.

There also needs to be a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is biological and generally has three categories, male, female and intersex whereas gender is psychological and people can identify as male, female, both or neither.

I fully support anybody's right to identify however they choose, it's of absolutely no concern to me and if makes them happy and able to live a life (the statistics on suicide amongst the trans population are terrifying) then they should go for it.

However, there is clearly an issue that needs dealing with in sport and it needs a balanced and grown up discussion that takes into account the rights of cisgendered competitors as well as trans or intersex athletes.

We need to also consider where do we draw the line. We are all on a genetic spectrum. Within the "male" population there are athletes who have wildly differing levels of testosterone. Should I be allowed to take testosterone supplements to level the playing field? The same in the "female" population. Some women have high levels of testosterone, others do not. The IAAF have a rule that specifies the maximum level of testosterone that a female athlete is allowed to have to compete in female competitions. This means that Caster Semenya and other athletes who have naturally occurring levels of testosterone higher than must take medication to lower those levels if they want to compete against women. I am personally uncomfortable with this as I feel it crosses a line but that is purely a subjective opinion and one I would be hard pressed to articulate fully.

So a conversation needs to be had and competitors who are beaten by individuals who have transitioned / taking hormones etc. probably have a right to be annoyed but playground name calling and the barely disguised transphobia that we often see in the media is not the way to go about it.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, monkie said:

This is a very complicated and difficult topic, I have to say some of the comments here are a tad out of order. I wonder if the people making them have ever known / had a discussion with somebody living through the hell of gender dysphoria? As a male who has always felt like a male (cisgendered) I cannot comprehend the pure existential nightmare that it must be to inhabit a body that feels wrong.

It's important to remember that there are a significant number of people who are born intersex. Estimates range from 2% down to 0.00067%. But it is definitely more than none. So to claim that everybody is "clearly" either male or female is wrong.

There also needs to be a distinction between sex and gender. Sex is biological and generally has three categories, male, female and intersex whereas gender is psychological and people can identify as male, female, both or neither.

I fully support anybody's right to identify however they choose, it's of absolutely no concern to me and if makes them happy and able to live a life (the statistics on suicide amongst the trans population are terrifying) then they should go for it.

However, there is clearly an issue that needs dealing with in sport and it needs a balanced and grown up discussion that takes into account the rights of cisgendered competitors as well as trans or intersex athletes.

We need to also consider where do we draw the line. We are all on a genetic spectrum. Within the "male" population there are athletes who have wildly differing levels of testosterone. Should I be allowed to take testosterone supplements to level the playing field? The same in the "female" population. Some women have high levels of testosterone, others do not. The IAAF have a rule that specifies the maximum level of testosterone that a female athlete is allowed to have to compete in female competitions. This means that Caster Semenya and other athletes who have naturally occurring levels of testosterone higher than must take medication to lower those levels if they want to compete against women. I am personally uncomfortable with this as I feel it crosses a line but that is purely a subjective opinion and one I would be hard pressed to articulate fully.

So a conversation needs to be had and competitors who are beaten by individuals who have transitioned / taking hormones etc. probably have a right to be annoyed but playground name calling and the barely disguised transphobia that we often see in the media is not the way to go about it.

 

 

Nice summary and pretty much sums up how I feel. 

Its complicated and won’t be an easy way forward but something needs to happen to clear it up for all sides. 

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On 29/05/2019 at 7:14 PM, rory-dognz said:

Also I honestly didn’t listen very hard

I guess that's just not your thing 🙂

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5 minutes ago, DiaboloACT said:

I guess that's just not your thing 🙂

No i wasn't planning on the change, 🤯

The podcast went into the history, how the requirements were set up, challenges etc.

 

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On 30/05/2019 at 1:29 PM, Peter said:

Interesting take on it.

I don't agree with it, but I get it. 

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16 minutes ago, willie said:

I don't agree with it, but I get it. 

We all know these so called rules won’t survive.  

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Forgive my ignorance but what is the correct terminology is s trans man someone who was born a man and identifies as a woman. And trans female the opposite. 

Not passing judgement just asking as I like to get my facts straight. 

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You've got it backwards Roxii.

A trans man is someone assigned female who transitions to male.

If you think about how they present/identify.

From this thread CeCe identifies/presents as a woman, so she's a trans woman, or just a woman.

One of the folks I follow on twitter is a trans woman.

 

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ifvyou want to learn about this issue , and how fffnn complex it is then watch this 

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When my daughter went from primary to secondary school, one of her best friends went with her.  The next couple of years she had plenty of struggles, anxiety etc, eventually identities as bi and left school to be home schooled.  Then a year later she started at a different high school, but was now James!  To make this even more confusing, recently based on his social media posts he has a boyfriend!  His older sister is also gay.  Teen years are tough enough without throwing all this into the mix.  And he is just a lovely kid, granted we haven't seen him for a while.

I look at what we're going through with Kyan atm, and can't imagine what it would be like to throw gender confusion, gender fluidity, body dysmorphia, etc into the mix!  

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I think that's the thing that gets over looked in the sports lens.

Oh, they were a crap athlete as a bloke, so they just switched to being a woman for the money/fame/glory/whatever.

And as we know, Women's sport is a very lucrative choice ;)

Its just a person who likes sports, who has possibly struggled with gender identity for most of their life.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tyno said:

Its just a person who likes sports, who has possibly struggled with gender identity for most of their life.

 

 

Yes but why take a National Championship off a deserving woman who did all the work without the testosterone?

No one is saying transgender can't play sport. There are plenty participation events to enter eg. age group Ironman 😁

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