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symo

Carbon Hoka's

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22 hours ago, symo said:

Bloody hell - carbon everywhere now-a-days

Hoka One Carbon

 

I saw that.  As someone who runs in Hoka's (both trail and road) I did wonder that introducing some added stiffness into the shoe goes against the grain of having them in the first place?  Maybe the way to go is to have them just for racing - they say life is 500k's so not exactly durable!

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I like my Hoka Clifton's for training. Bought some lightweight Hoka Tracers, but they are horrible to run in. Apparently the new model is better?

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3 hours ago, truck said:

I saw that.  As someone who runs in Hoka's (both trail and road) I did wonder that introducing some added stiffness into the shoe goes against the grain of having them in the first place?  Maybe the way to go is to have them just for racing - they say life is 500k's so not exactly durable!

Er, Hokas are amongst the stiffest shoes out there (Clifton, Bondi, arahi etc) so this confuses me?

I'm not a big fan of any of the shoes with carbon in them, I'm trying to learn to wear the 4% effectively but destroys my lower limb mostly.

I do think things are getting out of control with cost etc though, that used be the brilliant thing about running. Fun fact, Adidas had Gabreslassie in carbon 15years agonin a custom shoe, I remember seeing a pair in 2010 working in the UK. 

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18 minutes ago, willie said:

Er, Hokas are amongst the stiffest shoes out there (Clifton, Bondi, arahi etc) so this confuses me?

 

Looks like confusion reigns!😂. Prior to bondis I ran in kayanos but just found that after 20k it felt as though I had concrete blocks strapped to my feet. Switching to the bondis was like putting carpet slippers on - think the rocker design also helps. On the trails I’m using Stinson atr’s which compared to both Salomon and ASICS trail shoes I used before are v compliant, possibly too much. What am I missing?

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Is there a technical difference between "stiffness" and "softness" ? 

Could you have a stiff carbon plate, but still a soft cushioning between the ground and the carbon? 

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7 minutes ago, roxii said:

Is there a technical difference between "stiffness" and "softness" ? 

Could you have a stiff carbon plate, but still a soft cushioning between the ground and the carbon? 

Spoken like someone from marketing, using interchangeable terms to add complexity and justify increase in cost

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10 minutes ago, roxii said:

Is there a technical difference between "stiffness" and "softness" ? 

Could you have a stiff carbon plate, but still a soft cushioning between the ground and the carbon? 

I would think so-the softness would relate to the impact force, where as having the stiff sole is supposed to add the spring or snap from when your foot roles off? The down movement is an impact, where as the next movement is a rolling motion?

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7 minutes ago, roxii said:

Is there a technical difference between "stiffness" and "softness" ? 

Could you have a stiff carbon plate, but still a soft cushioning between the ground and the carbon? 

Yes very big difference between cushion and stiffness. Not just marketing BS.

Stiffness - How much like a plank of wood is the shoe? Grab two different models of shoe, grab heel and toe and twist. Hola Clifton is extremely stiff, the New Balance Beacon is not stiff at all. I personally think the beacon is a kick ass shoe compared with the Clifton (both do a simar job). Lots of converts from Clifton to beacon on here as well. 

Softness - How does it feel under foot. Like a pillow that you could wear all day, or like a Racing flat that is good for nothing but going fast. The beacon is soft like a pillow with fresh foam, a 1400 race shoe from revlite is a lot firmer (1400 is slightly faster then beacon, also feels better off the bike as well)

Effectively the 4% is exactly what you've described, but the problem being it's still too stiff for me and as such, I'm trying to get my body to adapt to wearing it. 

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3 minutes ago, willie said:

Yes very big difference between cushion and stiffness. Not just marketing BS.

Stiffness - How much like a plank of wood is the shoe? Grab two different models of shoe, grab heel and toe and twist. Hola Clifton is extremely stiff, the New Balance Beacon is not stiff at all. I personally think the beacon is a kick ass shoe compared with the Clifton (both do a simar job). Lots of converts from Clifton to beacon on here as well. 

Softness - How does it feel under foot. Like a pillow that you could wear all day, or like a Racing flat that is good for nothing but going fast. The beacon is soft like a pillow with fresh foam, a 1400 race shoe from revlite is a lot firmer (1400 is slightly faster then beacon, also feels better off the bike as well)

Effectively the 4% is exactly what you've described, but the problem being it's still too stiff for me and as such, I'm trying to get my body to adapt to wearing it. 

So a control shoe (like the kayano) is therefore a stiff shoe?  Whereas the bondi is sold as a neutral shoe so therefore less stiff than the kayano?  I'm struggling to see how a shoe with a high cushion content can also be described as stiff because the cushion must give some flex. 

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3 minutes ago, truck said:

So a control shoe (like the kayano) is therefore a stiff shoe?  Whereas the bondi is sold as a neutral shoe so therefore less stiff than the kayano?  I'm struggling to see how a shoe with a high cushion content can also be described as stiff because the cushion must give some flex. 

The cushion is under your foot-as Willie said how soft it feels. The stiffness relates to if you can bend it in half easily from toe to heel for example

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14 minutes ago, more said:

The cushion is under your foot-as Willie said how soft it feels. The stiffness relates to if you can bend it in half easily from toe to heel for example

Stiffness should also relate to whether or not you can twist it - with a control shoe it's much more restrictive therefore must be stiffer to do that.  The rocker design of the Hoka's should make it less comparable with a traditional heeled shoe because, at least for me, I've become a mid foot runner rather than a mild heel striker.

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What mileage are you guys getting out of your Hoka's ?  500k is about my max in the Elevon's

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On 15/05/2019 at 3:07 PM, truck said:

So a control shoe (like the kayano) is therefore a stiff shoe?  Whereas the bondi is sold as a neutral shoe so therefore less stiff than the kayano?  I'm struggling to see how a shoe with a high cushion content can also be described as stiff because the cushion must give some flex. 

The Kayano is an over-engineered  POS and has been for about 10 years. In fact ASICS in general apart from a couple of models. I'll never understand why they discontinued the hyperspeed. It was one of my favourites. "Simple bliss" is how it's easily described. 

Neutral just means there is no engineered control element in the shoe (normally a medial post or guide rails). However I'd argue that the stupidly wide/slow base of the bigger Hokas is quite controlling. I think runners that aren't very 'run stable' or perhaps haven't been running that long like them because of the wide stable platform. Personally I can't wear them, they give me all sorts of nasties. 

So moral to my rant, the Hoka Bondi is not flexible in any way, shape or form. I even grabbed a pair and whacked em on (Clifton's) and 100% sure they're stiff. You just can't feel it as much in the hoka because of the marshmallow ride.

Most of my shoes and most people I fit get something quite flexible. The most stable shoe I stock is probably a Saucony Guide, but as far as 'support' shoes go they're still quite flexible. If you're having issues I'm an advocate of fixing your body before screwing around with big hard chunks in your shoes (don't get me started on orthotics). 

I can't be too bad at it given the amount of pro triathletes and elite runners ask for my advice. Lachie was the latest yesterday and will help him out when I'm down in Melbourne later this month. Cranky gets a lesson soon as well. 

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Just now, willie said:

The Kayano is an over-engineered  POS and has been for about 10 years. In fact ASICS in general apart from a couple of models. I'll never understand why they discontinued the hyperspeed. It was one of my favourites. "Simple bliss" is how it's easily described. 

Neutral just means there is no engineered control element in the shoe (normally a medial post or guide rails). However I'd argue that the stupidly wide/slow base of the bigger Hokas is quite controlling. I think runners that aren't very 'run stable' or perhaps haven't been running that long like them because of the wide stable platform. Personally I can't wear them, they give me all sorts of nasties. 

So moral to my rant, the Hoka Bondi is not flexible in any way, shape or form. I even grabbed a pair and whacked em on (Clifton's) and 100% sure they're stiff. You just can't feel it as much in the hoka because of the marshmallow ride.

Most of my shoes and most people I fit get something quite flexible. The most stable shoe I stock is probably a Saucony Guide, but as far as 'support' shoes go they're still quite flexible. If you're having issues I'm an advocate of fixing your body before screwing around with big hard chunks in your shoes (don't get me started on orthotics). 

I can't be too bad at it given the amount of pro triathletes and elite runners ask for my advice. Lachie was the latest yesterday and will help him out when I'm down in Melbourne later this month. Cranky gets a lesson soon as well. 

Hey @willie I've sent you a number of sms' over the last few days but haven't had a response?

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10 minutes ago, more said:

Hey @willie I've sent you a number of sms' over the last few days but haven't had a response?

Wanna shoot me a PM with your question, I haven't got any texts since I sent you tracking for Wahoo. 

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