Jump to content
lzbones

Coaching Qualifications - Compete vs Participate

Recommended Posts

Hi

 

In terms of tri Australia’s coaching framework and an exact legal definition what is the difference between participate and compete?

http://www.triathlon.org.au/Coaching/Coaching.htm#Where+to+start

Many coaches (including head coaches of some triathlon coaches) seem to have development coach (participate) athletes (in a group but not individuals) level. What are these coaches exactly qualified and insured to do???

Edited by lzbones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL.  Under the new framework pretty much nothing.  By trying to force relevancy of the higher coaching qualifications TA have pretty much destroyed any credibility their qualification had, which wasn't a lot.

Essentially TA's official position is that anyone wanting to train to improve their performance needs to be under a "Performance Coach" (requiring a week long course only held in Canberra, costing a couple of grand plus flights, etc.)  A "Development Coach" (2 day course help in your nearest capital city and around $400) should not be coaching anyone whose aims are set higher than just completing and only in a group environment.

When questioned about the effect this would have on community clubs it appeared it hadn't even been considered, although the chief coaching big-wig said there was heavy consultation with clubs but couldn't name a single one that had been spoken to.  Certainly none in WA were approached.

When it comes to what a qualified TA coach is insured to do (of any level) I'd have little confidence of it being anything.  Nobody from the insurer down will provide a clear definition of what is and isn't covered without a lot of weasel words and out clauses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Stikman said:

LOL.  Under the new framework pretty much nothing.  By trying to force relevancy of the higher coaching qualifications TA have pretty much destroyed any credibility their qualification had, which wasn't a lot.

Essentially TA's official position is that anyone wanting to train to improve their performance needs to be under a "Performance Coach" (requiring a week long course only held in Canberra, costing a couple of grand plus flights, etc.)  A "Development Coach" (2 day course help in your nearest capital city and around $400) should not be coaching anyone whose aims are set higher than just completing and only in a group environment.

When questioned about the effect this would have on community clubs it appeared it hadn't even been considered, although the chief coaching big-wig said there was heavy consultation with clubs but couldn't name a single one that had been spoken to.  Certainly none in WA were approached.

When it comes to what a qualified TA coach is insured to do (of any level) I'd have little confidence of it being anything.  Nobody from the insurer down will provide a clear definition of what is and isn't covered without a lot of weasel words and out clauses.

How do coahes who are not aligned with Tri Aus get insurance? Is this why we have training squads and not clubs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting response stickkman. The upcoming bussleton half Ironman has a competitors book (as do many other events) with everyone’s name in it. I guess this means development coaches are not qualified to coach anyone doing Busselton half or any other event with competitor books or competitor results.

 

what do clubs like stadium tri club in Perth do who seem to have many development coaches (including the head coach unless this has changed since I last looked) do? Do they have there own insurance instead??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As with most associations accreditations they're not really worth the paper their written on. They give you some sort of insurance. What that insurance is and the definitions of said insurance are as clear as mud. For me it didn't matter, I already had other bits of paper that covered me for more than the mud TA and Athletics Australia can provide me. 

That being said though, if it ever went as far as negligence in court it would be interesting to see where the blame would lie. If I had the second highest tier on TAs new framework, would that cover me if someone sued me for negligence if I injured them? Could I say 'well TA told me with the qualification I could do X'. 

I also think it helps with your own TA insurance through membership if you're injured whilst out training in a prescribed session issued by an accredited coach. It clears up a few grey areas to do with that.

At the end of the day I have my own insurance outside of any governing body and am happy to do so. I know what cover I've got and am comfortable with that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lzbones said:

Interesting response stickkman. The upcoming bussleton half Ironman has a competitors book (as do many other events) with everyone’s name in it. I guess this means development coaches are not qualified to coach anyone doing Busselton half or any other event with competitor books or competitor results.

what do clubs like stadium tri club in Perth do who seem to have many development coaches (including the head coach unless this has changed since I last looked) do? Do they have there own insurance instead??

Well here's the rub, the statement by the national coaching manager (or whatever his title is) was that existing Development Coaches would still be able to operate as they had been (one-on-one improvement focused coaching) and it only applied to newly created coaches.  When I asked what the insurer's opinion of this was and said it must be put in writing by TA (so we have some basis to sue them if their insurer disagrees) he was flustered and seemed perplexed that we couldn't just trust him...

As for clubs in Perth, I'm fairly sure that none of the volunteers on the committees think that deeply about it and trust that all will be okay with their TA insurance.  Clubs themselves really only have the equivalent of directors' insurance through TA but with members, clubs and coaches all insured by the same body you can guarantee one thing, when it comes to paying out for something they will choose the cheapest option for them but it will eliminate a bit of red tape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I guess it’s pitty the fool with a development coaching qualification if someone decides to sue them for it seems they will be up the creek without a paddle.

 

people seem to forget that they can be sued even if they have followed all guidelines and procedures and not been negligent at all.

Edited by lzbones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Stikman said:

Well here's the rub, the statement by the national coaching manager (or whatever his title is) was that existing Development Coaches would still be able to operate as they had been (one-on-one improvement focused coaching) and it only applied to newly created coaches.  When I asked what the insurer's opinion of this was and said it must be put in writing by TA (so we have some basis to sue them if their insurer disagrees) he was flustered and seemed perplexed that we couldn't just trust him...

As for clubs in Perth, I'm fairly sure that none of the volunteers on the committees think that deeply about it and trust that all will be okay with their TA insurance.  Clubs themselves really only have the equivalent of directors' insurance through TA but with members, clubs and coaches all insured by the same body you can guarantee one thing, when it comes to paying out for something they will choose the cheapest option for them but it will eliminate a bit of red tape.

What’s worse is that this seems to be a restriction added to the insurance polices as a specific request from triathlon Australia and not the insurance provider. Athletics seem to have the same insurance provider but not have such ‘group/participant’ policy for equivalent coaching level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL - I've a:

  • cert III in outdoor rec (MTB & Road),
  • ASCTA -SAT (that's the learn to swim, I'll get around to the AA (adolescents & Adults) quals later)
  • TA  L1 coaching 
  • 36 years racing & training exp
  • and  a grad dip in teaching (and over a decade of professional practice)

don't think I need any more just to give complimentary advice to the odd person just getting started so not feeling like giving TA any more of my dosh ATM (esp as inside a school environment we hide under the department's insurance umbrella (and paperwork :( )

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things may have changed since I did the Level 2 Performance Coach course 12 months ago. Back then my understanding was, in the near future, Level 1 Development Coaches would no longer be covered by Insurance for writing Personalised Training Programs.

So Level 1 and 2 coaches could run club or squad training sessions. But only Level 2 (or above) coaches should be doing the Individualised Training Programs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if a Tri coach is writing programs but is not covered by or a memeber of Tri Aust but the athlete is a member of Tri-Australia.

There is a crash in their bunch ride. Who does the athlete claim against?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

There is a crash in their bunch ride. Who does the athlete claim against?

That is what's wrong with the world these days.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

So if a Tri coach is writing programs but is not covered by or a memeber of Tri Aust but the athlete is a member of Tri-Australia.

There is a crash in their bunch ride. Who does the athlete claim against?

Did the coach recommended the ride, has the coach performed a safety assessment of the ride group, has the coach ensured the route is safe??

 

when I did the coaching course it was recommend to say perform a 2hr ride, for example but not give a specific route 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rob said:

Things may have changed since I did the Level 2 Performance Coach course 12 months ago. Back then my understanding was, in the near future, Level 1 Development Coaches would no longer be covered by Insurance for writing Personalised Training Programs.

So Level 1 and 2 coaches could run club or squad training sessions. But only Level 2 (or above) coaches should be doing the Individualised Training Programs.

Do you know when this changed as I did the level 1. To was told pre course; during course and after course that I could coach individual. I was even able to register as a ‘professional coach’ . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rob said:

Things may have changed since I did the Level 2 Performance Coach course 12 months ago. Back then my understanding was, in the near future, Level 1 Development Coaches would no longer be covered by Insurance for writing Personalised Training Programs.

So Level 1 and 2 coaches could run club or squad training sessions. But only Level 2 (or above) coaches should be doing the Individualised Training Programs.

 

33 minutes ago, lzbones said:

Do you know when this changed as I did the level 1. To was told pre course; during course and after course that I could coach individual. I was even able to register as a ‘professional coach’ . 

The announcement wasn't made more broadly until early this year however the scope of practice for all levels changed some time prior to May last year.  To date I'd argue that TA has made little more than a half-hearted attempt to advise existing coaches of these changes, probably because they know what backlash they will receive and are more than a little gutless.  They also haven't fully fleshed out the changes and have very few firm answers to any questions other than to reiterate what little information they have given.

The "professional coach" membership is simply to allow you to take some form of payment or reimbursement (either cash or in-kind) for using your skills, it has no effect on your scope of practice.  A Foundation or Development coach is pretty much a useless qualification, you may as well spend the money on a few decent books.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just passing on what I have been told in person or correspondence by Frank here at TWA and Graeme Hill at TA.  If you have any questions I'd direct them at Graeme, his email address is on the TA website, but I wouldn't expect any real answers.

As I understand it, to be able to coach a basic squad as a volunteer at a club you now need the following:

TA membership @ $170+

Foundation Course @ $350

First aid & CPR Course @ $100+

So circa $650 before you can VOLUNTEER.  If you want to get paid or reimbursed the professional membership class is another $180.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Bored@work said:

How do coahes who are not aligned with Tri Aus get insurance? Is this why we have training squads and not clubs?

They take out private insurance.  Usually personal training type insurance. There are about 30 coaches in Melbourne alone that arent on the TriVIC website.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

So if a Tri coach is writing programs but is not covered by or a memeber of Tri Aust but the athlete is a member of Tri-Australia.

There is a crash in their bunch ride. Who does the athlete claim against?

One of the examples I was given - an athlete you are coaching dies of a heart attack. Their spouse then sues you, claiming the training you prescribed was the main cause of the heart attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

That is what's wrong with the world these days.

So true, its very disappointing that people need to think in terms of who am I suing.  As adults we should have sufficient intellect to determine where to draw the line. 

The whole purpose of a coach is to understand your goals as an athlete, get to understand your capabilities, then devise an appropriate plan to improve you.

By its mere purpose a coach needs to push you harder than you have been but in a controlled manner, but he can't stop you from being an idiot (riding down a hill faster than your skill set allows, cornering on a crit circuit etc....). 

In the scouting movement they were seeking suitable people to assist in water based activities (sailing etc...).  I volunteered then they needed me to go through 4 full weekends of specific training (now I have sailed a variety of yachts for 30+ years, won numerous yachting regattas, held an yachting Australia coaches certification (for around 10 years when I was 16, so it had lapsed).  In the end I decided not to as I didn't have the time , so the losers out of this are the kids.  I get we need to have appropriately skilled people especially around youth, but why not apply some practicalities, sit a test over a few hours and that dictates if there is any gaps in your training.

 

Stephen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Blobby said:

In the scouting movement they were seeking suitable people to assist in water based activities (sailing etc...).  I volunteered then they needed me to go through 4 full weekends of specific training (now I have sailed a variety of yachts for 30+ years, won numerous yachting regattas, held an yachting Australia coaches certification (for around 10 years when I was 16, so it had lapsed).  In the end I decided not to as I didn't have the time , so the losers out of this are the kids.  I get we need to have appropriately skilled people especially around youth, but why not apply some practicalities, sit a test over a few hours and that dictates if there is any gaps in your training.

And that's where the world has changed.

When I left school to do teaching at Uni, my old high school asked me to come along on a 1 week camp up the coast. One of the days had the kids on the hire cat's at Mooloolaba. The afternoon before I went out with 3 other teachers to show them how to sail (I'd raced Herons with my brother as a teenager and sailed cat's a little bit) then the next day the kids went out on the cat's and we sailed around as "babysitters" keeping an eye on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Rob said:

One of the examples I was given - an athlete you are coaching dies of a heart attack. Their spouse then sues you, claiming the training you prescribed was the main cause of the heart attack.

The spouse would have a very very hard time proving that and would most likely lose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, willie said:

The spouse would have a very very hard time proving that and would most likely lose. 

Yeah but the stress on the coach would be massive.  

The spouse has nothing to lose. Or should I say, more to lose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not much TA love above which is nothing new and reflects the declining membership of the association which is in freefall, approx 13% over last two years, will be interesting if they got the 13% back this FY.   Suspect they will have  got them back and grown from 2 years ago numbers with the age group world champs on the goldie last September, scary for the sport if they didn't.

Coaching and the courses should just be free as long as you put back into the membership of the sport or run a session at a race or the like for all comers. Appreciate that comes at a cost but if you grow the sport, you get more revenue and besides the money is there if you read the annual reports, travel's over a million dollars so maybe pull some savings from there, you know use a telephone, watch races on a stream unless officiating, etc.

 

Edited by Oompa Loompa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/05/2019 at 11:29 AM, Stikman said:

I'm just passing on what I have been told in person or correspondence by Frank here at TWA and Graeme Hill at TA.  If you have any questions I'd direct them at Graeme, his email address is on the TA website, but I wouldn't expect any real answers.

As I understand it, to be able to coach a basic squad as a volunteer at a club you now need the following:

TA membership @ $170+

Foundation Course @ $350

First aid & CPR Course @ $100+

So circa $650 before you can VOLUNTEER.  If you want to get paid or reimbursed the professional membership class is another $180.

 

YEP, you have to pay a lot and give a lot of time upfront (before you're allowed to even coach, in TA's opinion) for the right to VOLUNTEER.

They have also added countless useless online courses lately, and Graeme Hill then sends you a nice email saying: 'not so friendly reminder...'.  I think I may stop thinking about volunteering in this sport and do something else with my time (and own money). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could name about 10 coaches just in Victoria that no longer pay TA but still coach via private insurance.

They all say, that TA only gets in the way rather than help them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...