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IMWA 2019 - Katz Campaign

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8 hours ago, Tyno said:

What about this Coach Trav fella I hear about over West?

 

I've used his coaching services in the past. It doesn't always end well. :whistling:

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9 hours ago, dazaau said:

See, for me I hardly swim. It takes way too long and the benefits are not enough. 4 times a week is a huge commitment for 10% of the race time. In winter it's massive. If you are time poor it just doesn't stack up imo. That and it's not fun (to me).

I think the best bang for time here is what I and a few suggested. Get a few 1 on 1 sessions to improve your stroke. Then just keep swimming twice a week (3 times would be better though). You will drop that 20 minutes on the swim with no time spent after the initial sessions, and you'll get out of the water feeling much better to get on the bike.

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4 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I think the best bang for time here is what I and a few suggested. Get a few 1 on 1 sessions to improve your stroke. Then just keep swimming twice a week (3 times would be better though). You will drop that 20 minutes on the swim with no time spent after the initial sessions, and you'll get out of the water feeling much better to get on the bike.

Totally agree.

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Dazaau, whilst I agree with your best bang for buck theory, something to consider is the added benefits of being swim fit. I have never run so well as when I was swim fit. It's something to do with aerobic capacity or some fancy jargon. Others on here will say the same thing.

Whilst I'm not doing triathlon at the moment, I'm about to jump back into the pool in the hope it makes my running feel like it used to. Easy.

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34 minutes ago, Lostkiwi said:

Dazaau, whilst I agree with your best bang for buck theory, something to consider is the added benefits of being swim fit. I have never run so well as when I was swim fit. It's something to do with aerobic capacity or some fancy jargon. Others on here will say the same thing.

Whilst I'm not doing triathlon at the moment, I'm about to jump back into the pool in the hope it makes my running feel like it used to. Easy.

I can see how that would be true, but I think coming from the times Katz has said she is moving from this is more something you would notice at the more pointy end of your potential performance? Better bang for your buck in the running and cycling base from here IMO. It could be similar if you really pushed yourself in the pool, but not many triathletes find that intuitive, being non "swimmers". 

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Katz, do you REALLY want a fast (relatively speaking) time? 

If so, how long can you maintain the motivation for? 

A 6 month goal is a long stretch. 

My theory (as a fat nuffy)

Get 6-8 weeks of solid swimming in. Get some one on ones. Then get with a squad or group for a while, but focus on swimming faster. Do your cycle commutes, but not really focus on training the bike  

Then keep swimming 3x a week and keep cycle commuting, but add a long way to/from work one day and another day an all out speed effort. 

Runs like parkrun or dark run etc would be good for you to do shorter sharper stuff  

Then get a coached ~20 week plan, with a squad if you can for group encouragement     

The mental side of it is up to you though, gotta get used to going deeper than you’ve become accustomed  

 

 

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I'm being coached by Michelle Duffield, maybe send her an email? Swimming wise, squads would be good, but could be a problem if you're really slow!? What about getting a video analysis done, Swim Smooth with Paul Newsome.

 

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21 hours ago, Paul Every said:

Start with stroke correction. Either one-on-one or a small class. Then go back to squad.

The coach at squad is monitoring too many swimmers to give you the attention your swimming currently requires.

Cycle in a group at least once a week with faster riders, or with training partner(s) of slightly better ability.

Do a large variety of races over winter, including choosing an event or two that's a new challenge for you.

Have some time/performance goals in races other than Busso.

Basically, do all things that I'm neglecting to do.:unsure:

I was pretty much going to say this. Especially about the swimming. You clearly have poor technique and simply haven’t (& won’t) be getting sufficient feedback from a squad. Go for the ‘one on one’ option. With a coach that knows their stuff and can give feedback. I reckon the best swim ‘toys’ you can use is for the coach to use your iPad video camera from the pool deck so he/she can show you exactly what you are doing wrong when you are in the pool so you can get your head around what he/she is trying to say to you in real time. Sorry that you are W.A. based, I can’t recommend anyone. If you were in Sydney I’d recommend some individual sessions with Charm Friend, VladSwim or Chris Hanrahan. I reckon one session per week with a coach, plus a commitment to get in the water and swim 2-4km an additional two or three times per week by yourself would see you get down to at least 20min/k. over about 30 months. 

 

On the bike, I reckon an electronic ergo trainer and a 90 minute trainer road session twice a week (in addition to those commute rides and a long ride on the weekend) is the best value for time/effort investment you can make. 

 

There areno shortcuts on the run, except running. Try to do 5km off the bike on your long day and quality runs immediately after your commute rides. But thee is no avoiding that 2hr weekly long run ...

geez I’m tied just writing that. See you on the start line in Busso!

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Just now, Andrew #1 said:

I was pretty much going to say this. Especially about the swimming. You clearly have poor technique and simply haven’t (& won’t) be getting sufficient feedback from a squad. Go for the ‘one on one’ option. With a coach that knows their stuff and can give feedback. I reckon the best swim ‘toys’ you can use is for the coach to use your iPad video camera from the pool deck so he/she can show you exactly what you are doing wrong when you are in the pool so you can get your head around what he/she is trying to say to you in real time. Sorry that you are W.A. based, I can’t recommend anyone. If you were in Sydney I’d recommend some individual sessions with Charm Friend, VladSwim or Chris Hanrahan. I reckon one session per week with a coach, plus a commitment to get in the water and swim 2-4km an additional two or three times per week by yourself would see you get down to at least 20min/k. over about 3 months. 

On the bike, I reckon an electronic ergo trainer and a 90 minute trainer road session twice a week (in addition to those commute rides and a long ride on the weekend) is the best value for time/effort investment you can make. 

There are no shortcuts on the run, except running. Try to do 5km off the bike on your long day and quality runs immediately after your commute rides. But thee is no avoiding that 2hr weekly long run ...

geez I’m tied just writing that. See you on the start line in Busso!

 

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5 hours ago, Tyno said:

Katz, do you REALLY want a fast (relatively speaking) time? 

If so, how long can you maintain the motivation for? 

A 6 month goal is a long stretch. 

My theory (as a fat nuffy)

Get 6-8 weeks of solid swimming in. Get some one on ones. Then get with a squad or group for a while, but focus on swimming faster. Do your cycle commutes, but not really focus on training the bike  

Then keep swimming 3x a week and keep cycle commuting, but add a long way to/from work one day and another day an all out speed effort. 

Runs like parkrun or dark run etc would be good for you to do shorter sharper stuff  

Then get a coached ~20 week plan, with a squad if you can for group encouragement     

The mental side of it is up to you though, gotta get used to going deeper than you’ve become accustomed  

 

 

Yeah, this is essentially my thinking. I wasn't going to start training 'for-Busso' just yet, but more start doing some of the foundational stuff I need to do in order to be ready to start training in a few months time.

Swimming definitely needs some short term specific focus, particularly around stroke correction. I've done a session with Swim Smooth (was ok, but there wasn't enough take away stuff to really help) and I've done another one-on-one with a coach with a similar result. I feel as though I need a handful of on-on-one sessions with plenty of follow up and correction to really get the motor patterns bedded down well.

I'd love a 1:30 swim, a 6-6:30 bike and a sub 5 hour marathon. That would be a blindly fast IM for me and something to build on in the future.

The other limiting factor I have is a back injury which limits just how much I can do without drugs. It's kind of a balancing act. For example. I rode into the city and back 4 times this week. I tried to run PR today and only managed about 800m before I had pain in my back and down one leg and weakness down the other with a bit of foot drop. I walked the rest at IM pace and beat myself up the whole way. 

You're also spot on with the mental bit. It's a bit of a joke between SM and I that I do every at IM pace, even an enticer distance tri. I don't like to hurt, but can and will from time to time if it suits me. Just not often enough to make it count. Something I need to learn to enjoy a bit more.

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3 hours ago, Katz said:

I don't like to hurt, but can and will from time to time if it suits me.

In relation to this, and the greater thing, remember you're in it for shits and giggles too :)

Treat yourself like a kid and remember to have fun.

Don't be daft "tuff".

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10 hours ago, Tyno said:

In relation to this, and the greater thing, remember you're in it for shits and giggles too :)

Treat yourself like a kid and remember to have fun.

Don't be daft "tuff".

It's all shits and giggles until someone giggles and shits. 💩

Make sure your nutrition is on point...... 🙊

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44 minutes ago, Katz said:

So back to basics I went. Went from 2:40 hundreds to 2:28 hundreds in a little under an hour. And I feel we’ve barely scratched the surface. 

We hate to say "we told you so", 

 

 

but we told you so. :)

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

We hate to say "we told you so", 

 

 

but we told you so. :)

Happy to be told. :D

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2 hours ago, Katz said:

Went from 2:40 hundreds to 2:28 in a little under an hour.

That's nearly 8 minutes in an IM. In a 1 hour session. 

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1 minute ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

That's nearly 8 minutes in an IM. In a 1 hour session. 

Yup. And we only worked on body position. So now I can make myself all streamlined and I can roll from my hips. Rather than resemble a barge, as it was so delicately put. There is still catch and pull to even consider, let alone work on, and I know they suck.

Interestingly, I've paid lots of money to other coaches, swim smooth included, and have gotten really nothing out of it. I think those guys might be better at tweaking a reasonable form to improve performance, but not to necessarily take someone who can swim to not drown, but in terms of having any real technique, has none. Also, those guys tend to give drills or whatever that really need someone to tell you if you are doing it wrong. It's all well and good to instruct and check on the day, but it's tomorrow and next week when you've not quite perfected it yet when the bad habits can creep in, both new and old which undoes any gains which may have been made.

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On 27/04/2019 at 7:12 AM, Shrek said:

Do you pay for the premium extras?

I've been considering using it for reason you mention and to help planning etc

Yep I have a tri USA account so I get good discount. I haven’t been a member of tri Australia since 2009

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16 hours ago, Katz said:

Just did a session in the pool one on one with a coach. He watched me swim 200m and the said “there’s too much going on there to try and fix things individually so let’s go back to basics”. LOL

So back to basics I went. Went from 2:40 hundreds to 2:28 hundreds in a little under an hour. And I feel we’ve barely scratched the surface. 

This! You’ll be able to hold better than 2 minutes per hundred for 3.8km by Busso if you persist. Easily!

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Also, those guys tend to give drills or whatever that really need someone to tell you if you are doing it wrong”

This. Drills are shit, swim toys are shit UNLESS you are getting real-time feedback when doing the drills or using the toys AND the purpose behind such is explained in a way that you can visualise the purpose as you go.

Ive been in many squads and been coached my numerous people and the only ones that have actually made drills and toys relevant to me are Chris Hanrahan and VladSwim (Sydney based). In both cases there were a small amount of swimmers per lane, more than one coach on the deck with lots of times out and even video reviews of what was going on.  

The best I have ever swam was one even when Chris Hanrahan took me from being a 1:25 min/100M swimmer at the beginning of the session to leading out the fast lane on 1:15/100 on a 1:35 repeat cycle for 1km. There was only 6 of us in the lane with 10 seconds seperation (so minimal whirlpool effect) in a ‘slow’ pool and it seemed easy. That was after 3km of drills that all had a purpose and made sense. One of those ‘perfect’ moments when everything comes together. 

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58 minutes ago, Andrew #1 said:

This! You’ll be able to hold better than 2 minutes per hundred for 3.8km by Busso if you persist. Easily!

Don't get my hopes too high. That would be an absolute dream is all I can say.

I'm heading back to the pool this evening, just to spend half an hour or so playing around with the drills again. I don't want to leave it too long before having another go so I don't forget how it is supposed to feel and can start bedding down the patterns. 

I am feeling really excited about this, just quietly. :D

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Good place to be putting in effort now I see you have back pain to work on and manage as well. Swimming is much easier on the body and may be good for rehabilitation also. 

Glad you got one on one coaching, swimming is a lot about technique. Technique I mostly don't have but I did get some one as ones years ago. 

 

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On 26/04/2019 at 3:09 PM, Katz said:

The truth of the matter is, I am a terrible, terrible swimmer. Terrible. I am capable of swimming a long way, but I am so very slow it isn't even slightly funny. 

If I was in Perth I'd be all over the swim smooth squad.  Even once a week.  Another tip for you to enjoy swimming more is to maybe when swimming alone swim the first 1k with flippers on. I think this serves a few things.  1. You will feel better knowing you swam 2k or more in the sessions. 2. You get a great warm up. 3. it's a nice feeling flying past people.

Maybe buy a generic program from Trainingpeaks and just follow it for structure.  Pick a 12 week 70.3 program.  Just do it for structure. Then when you get to the 12-14 weeks out from busso either get a local coach or buy another generic program.

And do races.  5k 10k whatever.  I find it stupid that people train all year for an Ironman and do one race a year.  usually fark it up and walk away disappointed.  Where as if you start doing say the local parkrunwith a 5k warmup before and maybe 2k after, you will firstly see yourself improve and enjoy doing a race.

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Further steps on the campaign are also being taken.

As at this morning, I weigh 74.6kgs. :crazy: That makes me about 12 and a half kilos heavier than is ideal for me for racing, and at least 10 kilos heavier than my clothes like me to be.

Calorie counting has always worked best for me to lose weight. When I do it, I do it with a very low margin of error. Everything is weighed and recorded as accurately as possible. The rule is, if I can't weigh it, I can't eat it. Life being what it is though, having others to consider and not just myself, the approach that I have taken in the past just doesn't work for me. I abandon it quickly as it just gets too hard. So instead, I've decided to engage the services of Lite and Easy starting this week. The reasoning is the calories are already counted for me and I can only eat what I am provided, forcing me to be more disciplined than I might ordinarily like to be. 

I am loosely committing (though I am unsure if one can be loosely committed) to a 6-8 week period, depending on results, with the odd flexible meal for special occasions.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

If I was in Perth I'd be all over the swim smooth squad.  Even once a week.  Another tip for you to enjoy swimming more is to maybe when swimming alone swim the first 1k with flippers on. I think this serves a few things.  1. You will feel better knowing you swam 2k or more in the sessions. 2. You get a great warm up. 3. it's a nice feeling flying past people.

Maybe buy a generic program from Trainingpeaks and just follow it for structure.  Pick a 12 week 70.3 program.  Just do it for structure. Then when you get to the 12-14 weeks out from busso either get a local coach or buy another generic program.

And do races.  5k 10k whatever.  I find it stupid that people train all year for an Ironman and do one race a year.  usually fark it up and walk away disappointed.  Where as if you start doing say the local parkrunwith a 5k warmup before and maybe 2k after, you will firstly see yourself improve and enjoy doing a race.

Conveniently, the local PR is about 6ks from home. :D

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24 minutes ago, Katz said:

Conveniently, the local PR is about 6ks from home. :D

Walk the last 3k home.

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44 minutes ago, Katz said:

Further steps on the campaign are also being taken.

As at this morning, I weigh 74.6kgs. :crazy: That makes me about 12 and a half kilos heavier than is ideal for me for racing, and at least 10 kilos heavier than my clothes like me to be.

Calorie counting has always worked best for me to lose weight. When I do it, I do it with a very low margin of error. Everything is weighed and recorded as accurately as possible. The rule is, if I can't weigh it, I can't eat it. Life being what it is though, having others to consider and not just myself, the approach that I have taken in the past just doesn't work for me. I abandon it quickly as it just gets too hard. So instead, I've decided to engage the services of Lite and Easy starting this week. The reasoning is the calories are already counted for me and I can only eat what I am provided, forcing me to be more disciplined than I might ordinarily like to be. 

I am loosely committing (though I am unsure if one can be loosely committed) to a 6-8 week period, depending on results, with the odd flexible meal for special occasions.

losing weight does wonders for injuries and niggles too. The load bearing difference makes a fantastic difference.Good luck with it. 

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3 hours ago, Katz said:

As at this morning, I weigh 74.6kgs. :crazy: That makes me about 12 and a half kilos heavier than is ideal for me for racing, and at least 10 kilos heavier than my clothes like me to be.

Ha. You got nuff’n on me baby.

I’m presently 96kg (down 1 from last week, lol) having played xbox whilst consuming beer and pizza with Thor for the last 9 months. 

Edited by Andrew #1

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On 26/04/2019 at 4:47 PM, Cat Lady said:

I did a few days with Brett Sutton last year.  On swimming, I shared your suckiness. Hated going to squad, too hard, in the slow lane with lots of chatting.  Total meh.  I did however start to use paddles and pull buoys so I could at least manage to finish a set. Brett said something which resonated with me, “use whatever tool you like so long as you swim and swim frequently”.  He had elite female swimmers who did entire squad sessions with both and refused to swim without them and improved their swim times dramatically.  You have to build up with the paddles and after a year of consistent squad (3 times a week)  I have shifted up a few lanes where chatting is relegated to before jumping in, and after getting out.  

Ok, so what kind of paddles do people recommend. I have some of those little finger ones. Is that all I need? Or do I 'need' those dinner plate like ones?

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I think that guys approach is the biggest paddle in the world.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tyno said:

I think that guys approach is the biggest paddle in the world.

I was looking at these ones. https://www.aquashop.com.au/tyr-catalyst-2-training-paddle.html My thinking is resistance can be increased as strength increases.

Then there is also these ones. https://www.aquashop.com.au/finis-agility-paddle.html#hidden-content-a WHich are supposed to fly off if you don't use them correctly.

Thoughts?

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12 minutes ago, zed said:

The finis ones are good. 

Would they provide 'too much' resistance for a weakling? I am particularly thinking about the risk of overload/injury to the shoulders.

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How tall are you BF? They say "Ideally for for persons over 170cm" I'm 169cm.

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14 minutes ago, Katz said:

Would they provide 'too much' resistance for a weakling? I am particularly thinking about the risk of overload/injury to the shoulders.

They come in 3 different sizes. Any slight hint of pain, ditch them. But u need to use them properly. They're designed to help you get a feel for a decent catch. 

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11 minutes ago, Katz said:

How tall are you BF? They say "Ideally for for persons over 170cm" I'm 169cm.

A lot smaller than you!!!  155cm.  I don't find they provide huge resistance - I've had other more traditional ones that provided a lot more

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47 minutes ago, Katz said:

I think if you’re using fins they need to give you as good propulsion as possible. Then you concentrate on front end form. 

If you are just as fast kicking  with these as a longer pair, they’d be fine. 

(Actual swimmers feel free to correct me)

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Hi Katz. I use the same paddles as bog frog as does our squad. Just had a look they are the Junior ones(White). Good to work on hand placement. I am also a short female. 

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1 hour ago, Tyno said:

I think if you’re using fins they need to give you as good propulsion as possible. Then you concentrate on front end form. 

If you are just as fast kicking  with these as a longer pair, they’d be fine. 

(Actual swimmers feel free to correct me)

I heard this as well when I first started so I have big ones! 

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Never quite understood this one - what are fins for?  I get it when you are trying to learn butterfly, but aren't they just a cheat otherwise?  Or is it to "feel" what it's like to move faster through the water?  

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1 minute ago, BogFrog said:

Never quite understood this one - what are fins for?  I get it when you are trying to learn butterfly, but aren't they just a cheat otherwise?  Or is it to "feel" what it's like to move faster through the water?  

From what I'm reading, it's about getting the feeling of swimming faster and also developing leg strength.

But I am the first to admit I have no idea........

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

Never quite understood this one - what are fins for?  I get it when you are trying to learn butterfly, but aren't they just a cheat otherwise?  Or is it to "feel" what it's like to move faster through the water?  

 

59 minutes ago, Katz said:

From what I'm reading, it's about getting the feeling of swimming faster and also developing leg strength.

But I am the first to admit I have no idea........

You're right Katz. It's like running on a slight decline. It teaches you what it's like to run/swim fast.

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

Never quite understood this one - what are fins for?  I get it when you are trying to learn butterfly, but aren't they just a cheat otherwise?  Or is it to "feel" what it's like to move faster through the water?  

The problem with toys is people end up overusing them, 500m wu with pull buoy drills with fins, cool down with kickboard and fins a 3km set can end up with only 1km of toy free work. 

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2 hours ago, zed said:

The problem with toys is people end up overusing them, 500m wu with pull buoy drills with fins, cool down with kickboard and fins a 3km set can end up with only 1km of toy free work. 

I agree.

That’s 1km too much :)

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So, I get home the other day and I find these on my desk. Thanks Stikman. :)

Paddles.jpg

Edited by Katz
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And I also remembered I had some long fins in the back of my car. So last night I took everything, and a pull buoy off to the pool for a bit of a flop about in the water.

I started with the body position drills, which seem to have sunk in quite nicely, with the exception of the body roll when my arms aren't moving. I can roll one way, but rolling back the other way doesn't go well unless I'm actually swimming. Anyways, something to work on.

Then I did a dog paddle drill, as instructed by the coach. I've come to realise I don't like new drills without the coach being present. It all felt completely wrong but I didn't know how to correct it. With the coach there I could have had feedback and been able to correct it to then know when I am doing it right and wrong.

Then I put the flippers on and the dinner plate paddles. Well, it seems with long flippers on my kick isn't too bad! I know this as my arm turnover couldn't keep up with the speed I was moving. It was both hilarious and ridiculous.

Then I just used the paddles on their own. I could definitely feel the difference the paddles made. Muscles were working I don't normally use (definitely noted further today and which prompted me to write this post). I also noticed my hand position was much better. Normally I sort of paw at the water with lots of pushing down. With the paddles on I couldn't do that and actually had to point my fingers down, presumably replicating what the catch should look like. 

It was all kinda cool and a real learning experience. 

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