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IMWA 2019 - Katz Campaign

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I've been reminded a few times recently that I've indicated I want to do Busso again this year. This has caused me to start thinking about training and what that might look like for the next 31 weeks. I have to admit, I haven't felt terribly inspired to do the same old thing again. I guess you could say I have demonstrated I can get myself around an IM course without having to put too much effort in to getting there. As much as I never would have believed it this time 6 years ago, completing an IM isn't actually that hard....... yeah, I said it.

The truth of the matter is, I am a terrible, terrible swimmer. Terrible. I am capable of swimming a long way, but I am so very slow it isn't even slightly funny. I am an ok cyclist. Just ok. Pretty sure I will see some improvement now I am commuting 3 times a week (45k round trip) and during my commutes I have a few little spots where I put in some efforts and have a few challenges (e.g. there is one patch of path where my current unmet challenge is to go flat out the whole way up. I got about 2/3rds of the way before I karcked it yesterday). I used to be an ok runner. Then I didn't run so much and gained some weight and now I am a terrible runner with the occasional burst of ok-ness. Even with all that going on, I can still get around an IM course (yes, I know, the easiest one ever) under cutoff.

I'd like to do better than that this year.

Trannies, please discuss.

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10 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Do you have a coach?

No.

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6 minutes ago, Katz said:

No.

Judging by your recent "what training did I do today" post, your nutrition is in order so lets focus on training only...

do you have access to swim squads?

I did similar things to you on my commute ( a safeish commute for these sort of efforts). One day do VO2 type intervals, one day longer intervals, one day the whole way steady/tempo, etc.. Otherwise, zwift and trainer road are your friend on the bike. 

send AP a message and get him to coach you.

Edited by pieman

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10 minutes ago, pieman said:

Judging by your recent "what training did I do today" post, your nutrition is in order so lets focus on training only...

do you have access to swim squads?

I did similar things to you on my commute ( a safeish commute for these sort of efforts). One day do VO2 type intervals, one day longer intervals, one day the whole way steady/tempo, etc.. Otherwise, zwift and trainer road are your friend on the bike. 

send AP a message and get him to coach you.

LOL. Nutrition also definitely needs some work.

I do have access to swim quads, but don't much like them, mostly on account of being so damn ridiculously slow. I fear I may need to just suck it up.

I have Zwift, haven't used it since starting commuting. But definitely need to again. 

I don't think AP would enjoy coaching me. 

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4 minutes ago, Katz said:

LOL. Nutrition also definitely needs some work.

I do have access to swim quads, but don't much like them, mostly on account of being so damn ridiculously slow. I fear I may need to just suck it up.

I have Zwift, haven't used it since starting commuting. But definitely need to again. 

I don't think AP would enjoy coaching me. 

When I swim alone I am very prone to shortening a planned workout to make it easier,  going slower on intervals than I can, or taking more rest than I am supposed to. Most of these things cant be done with a half decent squad. 

Unless you are going to do a "winterfish" challenge and just swim 100km in a month at your own pace I doubt you will get much quicker and even then you should get faster off of 2 squads a week..

Depending which squad you are with, most have a a wide range of abilities and seeing yourself go from back of slow lane, tot he front of slow lane and then even get bumped up a lane is confidence building in of itself..

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6 minutes ago, pieman said:

When I swim alone I am very prone to shortening a planned workout to make it easier,  going slower on intervals than I can, or taking more rest than I am supposed to. Most of these things cant be done with a half decent squad. 

Unless you are going to do a "winterfish" challenge and just swim 100km in a month at your own pace I doubt you will get much quicker and even then you should get faster off of 2 squads a week..

Depending which squad you are with, most have a a wide range of abilities and seeing yourself go from back of slow lane, tot he front of slow lane and then even get bumped up a lane is confidence building in of itself..

The problem I've had with the couple of squads I've tried to swim with in the past is either I've been far too slow for even the slowest lane, or I've been stuck in the slowest lane with the people who don't care about getting faster and are just there for the social aspect with the result being, much chatter and not enough swimming. The problem with that of course is with the coach in so much as they haven't reined them in.

Anyways, I do know a little squad who have a coach who doesn't tolerate such behaviour who might be able to fit me in to their slow group.

 

And for the record, I do pretty much everything at "IM race pace". It doesn't hurt at all. :D

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How slow is slow? Im crazy slow and like you would like to do squad but am worried about being 'too' slow

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2 minutes ago, more said:

How slow is slow? Im crazy slow and like you would like to do squad but am worried about being 'too' slow

I think this is usually unwarranted.. often if you are "too slow" you get more bang for buck cos the coach will give you more stroke correction advice while just giving the speedier swimmers the set and the times...

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2 minutes ago, more said:

How slow is slow? Im crazy slow and like you would like to do squad but am worried about being 'too' slow

I do an IM swim leg in between 1:40 and 1:50 (that's hours and minutes). 

In the pool I do about 30 minutes per km.

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5 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Have u used training peaks? I found it helped keep me motivated. 

I do use it. Love seeing green boxes. Just never really know what to put in there other than my usual steady IM pace workouts. lol

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Start with stroke correction. Either one-on-one or a small class. Then go back to squad.

The coach at squad is monitoring too many swimmers to give you the attention your swimming currently requires.

Cycle in a group at least once a week with faster riders, or with training partner(s) of slightly better ability.

Do a large variety of races over winter, including choosing an event or two that's a new challenge for you.

Have some time/performance goals in races other than Busso.

Basically, do all things that I'm neglecting to do.:unsure:

Edited by Paul Every
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Honestly, I'd suck it up and do the squad.  Even if you did the squad just once a week out of all your swimming, I reckon it'd be a big help!  I like the structure of someone telling me what to do when swimming, rather than just plodding along on my own.

I reckon you'd find you'd pick up a bit of extra pace fairly quickly, enough that you won't feel bad about your im swim time.  Not that you should anyway.  But just a little kick of confidence.

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31 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

 

Cycle in a group at least once a week with faster riders, or with training partner(s) of slightly better ability.

Do a large variety of races over winter, including choosing an event or two that's a new challenge for you.

 

This is great feedback. You can do commuting and hill repeats all year round with out improvement. My riding has gone nuts this year just by training with guys who are better than me. It will push you to another level of pain and you will learn to suffer. 

Also pick someone on strava who is better than you & start trying to take their KOM off them. It's a fun way to push yourself & it will give you some small little victories along the journey to getting faster on the bike.

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12 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

This is great feedback. You can do commuting and hill repeats all year round with out improvement. My riding has gone nuts this year just by training with guys who are better than me. It will push you to another level of pain and you will learn to suffer. 

Also pick someone on strava who is better than you & start trying to take their KOM off them. It's a fun way to push yourself & it will give you some small little victories along the journey to getting faster on the bike.

In the rain? 

I know what you mean, I rode a couple of times on Zwift with a couple of much better riders than me and oh em gee.....a whole world of pain I didn't not know existed. 

I do like the Strava idea you mention. I can race someone and they won't even know it. :clapping:

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15 minutes ago, goughy said:

Honestly, I'd suck it up and do the squad.  Even if you did the squad just once a week out of all your swimming, I reckon it'd be a big help!  I like the structure of someone telling me what to do when swimming, rather than just plodding along on my own.

I reckon you'd find you'd pick up a bit of extra pace fairly quickly, enough that you won't feel bad about your im swim time.  Not that you should anyway.  But just a little kick of confidence.

I reckon you're probably right Goughy. Every little bit will help I am sure.

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4 minutes ago, Katz said:

In the rain? 

I know what you mean, I rode a couple of times on Zwift with a couple of much better riders than me and oh em gee.....a whole world of pain I didn't not know existed. 

I do like the Strava idea you mention. I can race someone and they won't even know it. :clapping:

They will know it once you start taking their KOM.  I picked a guy from my old cycling team and started taking his KOM (just local climbs & flat TT efforts) He cracked the shit deleted me from Facebook, unfollowed instagram & blocked me from seeing his rides on Strava. His team mates think it's hilarious the way he sooks when someone takes a KOM off him. So they email me a list of his KOM to attack . 

I have already past last years amount of climbing on the bike and rapidly closing in on more km than last year. I should get about 12k on the bike this year. 

 

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I'm going to fly in the face of all the above excellent advice. So here it goes. 

You are slow in all three disciplines because you are "unfit" and not used to pushing your body at pace. Rather than focus on your weakest leg (which also happens to be the most insignificant in triathlon) you should focus on the discipline that gives you the most fitness improvement with the least amount of effort:

You should run. Fast.

Pick a 10k, then a half. Train to run them fast. If you can run you can ride, just keep commuting. Running is very time efficient and it gives great workouts. It would improve all your disciplines. It's also the easiest discipline to lose weight with, and the hardest to slack off in as running is always a a bit "hard", unlike say cycling (spinning etc).

 

 

 

 

Edited by dazaau

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Katz, lots of great advice above, but I think Paul summed it up perfectly. 

Before you start squad, get someone to look at your stroke. Even just 2 or 3 one on one sessions with someone who can improve your stroke will do so much for your ability to keep up in squad. It really is the difference between BoP & MoP with swimming.

Ride (and run) with groups who are better than you now & then, and struggle. After a few times you'll find it a little easier to keep up, and that in itself will give you motivation to keep improving.

And race anything you can. Fun-runs, club bike races, duathlons, triathlons. They are all fun, and are worth much more than any training session.

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I’ve just bought a new bike to motivate me to ride over winter... I plan to head out to the hills on either Saturdays or Sundays so ur more than welcome to join me anytime... I will be leaving East Perth and ur more than welcome to come and doddle a lap of the river. 

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40 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Katz, lots of great advice above, but I think Paul summed it up perfectly. 

Before you start squad, get someone to look at your stroke. Even just 2 or 3 one on one sessions with someone who can improve your stroke will do so much for your ability to keep up in squad. It really is the difference between BoP & MoP with swimming.

Ride (and run) with groups who are better than you now & then, and struggle. After a few times you'll find it a little easier to keep up, and that in itself will give you motivation to keep improving.

And race anything you can. Fun-runs, club bike races, duathlons, triathlons. They are all fun, and are worth much more than any training session.

I'm going to start with using the virtual partner thingy on the garmin during porkrun. If I try and run with someone, or chase someone, I often find I pick the wrong someone, especially at PR.

I've also found 2 strava segments which might suit me, one little mongrel hilly bit of the commute and one nice little flat TT and have set 90 day goals to topple the QOM. Should be interesting.

12 minutes ago, beginnergirl said:

I’ve just bought a new bike to motivate me to ride over winter... I plan to head out to the hills on either Saturdays or Sundays so ur more than welcome to join me anytime... I will be leaving East Perth and ur more than welcome to come and doddle a lap of the river. 

That's very kind of you BG. I live out near the hills so could meet you enroute easily. 

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14 minutes ago, beginnergirl said:

I’ve just bought a new bike to motivate me to ride over winter... I plan to head out to the hills on either Saturdays or Sundays so ur more than welcome to join me anytime... I will be leaving East Perth and ur more than welcome to come and doddle a lap of the river. 

What? There's more to Perth than the bike path? :unsure:

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2 minutes ago, Katz said:

I'm going to start with using the virtual partner thingy on the garmin during porkrun.

Anything that involves running and bacon must be good for you. :thumbsup:

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I did a few days with Brett Sutton last year.  On swimming, I shared your suckiness. Hated going to squad, too hard, in the slow lane with lots of chatting.  Total meh.  I did however start to use paddles and pull buoys so I could at least manage to finish a set. Brett said something which resonated with me, “use whatever tool you like so long as you swim and swim frequently”.  He had elite female swimmers who did entire squad sessions with both and refused to swim without them and improved their swim times dramatically.  You have to build up with the paddles and after a year of consistent squad (3 times a week)  I have shifted up a few lanes where chatting is relegated to before jumping in, and after getting out.  

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4 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Do the complete opposite to Stickman & u will be flying 

Except swimming. He is a delight to watch swim.

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2 minutes ago, Cat Lady said:

I did a few days with Brett Sutton last year.  On swimming, I shared your suckiness. Hated going to squad, too hard, in the slow lane with lots of chatting.  Total meh.  I did however start to use paddles and pull buoys so I could at least manage to finish a set. Brett said something which resonated with me, “use whatever tool you like so long as you swim and swim frequently”.  He had elite female swimmers who did entire squad sessions with both and refused to swim without them and improved their swim times dramatically.  You have to build up with the paddles and after a year of consistent squad (3 times a week)  I have shifted up a few lanes where chatting is relegated to before jumping in, and after getting out.  

I like that advice. I've been encouraged to ditch both and can't say it's made me a better swimmer. Nor has it made me appreciably worse I might add.

I'm not sure I could manage to fit 3x squad into my week, but 1xsquad plus a couple of swims when I can fit it in would be a definite improvement.

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You have 31 weeks ...wow ...long prep. 

Definitely need to get your swim down. If you hate swimming you need to do it more often. It does get easier the more you do it and the fitter you get. The rest of your disciplines will benefit as well if you are swim fit.

Do what Paul said. And do what Bored said ie: have the conversation with AP. 

If you need motivation I would even buy AP’s book called ‘100 Bedtime Stories for Triathletes’. It’s very philosophical and what he says is very relevant in all that we do and how we do it. The best thing is you know what he says makes sense and you will know what you are not doing.

 

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Katz I’m only left with swimming.....and I hated it.

i would only swim the absolute bare minimum to survive my racing when I was doing tris. 

So I had no choice but to swim, the more I swam the better I got and then the more I enjoyed it (or at least hated it less) and that continues to now where jumping in for  a 2-3 k ocean swim is easy and enjoyable. 

In the words of Nike “just do it” 

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38 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

You have 31 weeks ...wow ...long prep. 

Definitely need to get your swim down. If you hate swimming you need to do it more often. It does get easier the more you do it and the fitter you get. The rest of your disciplines will benefit as well if you are swim fit.

Do what Paul said. And do what Bored said ie: have the conversation with AP. 

If you need motivation I would even buy AP’s book called ‘100 Bedtime Stories for Triathletes’. It’s very philosophical and what he says is very relevant in all that we do and how we do it. The best thing is you know what he says makes sense and you will know what you are not doing.

 

Just too clarify I never said to have a chat with AP. 

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16 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Just too clarify I never said to have a chat with AP. 

Sorry. ‘Twas pieman. You guys need to load pics. The P and the B being similar and the same colour fooled me. 

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2 hours ago, dazaau said:

I'm going to fly in the face of all the above excellent advice. So here it goes. 

You are slow in all three disciplines because you are "unfit" and not used to pushing your body at pace. Rather than focus on your weakest leg (which also happens to be the most insignificant in triathlon) you should focus on the discipline that gives you the most fitness improvement with the least amount of effort:

You should run. Fast.

Pick a 10k, then a half. Train to run them fast. If you can run you can ride, just keep commuting. Running is very time efficient and it gives great workouts. It would improve all your disciplines. It's also the easiest discipline to lose weight with, and the hardest to slack off in as running is always a a bit "hard", unlike say cycling (spinning etc).

 

 

 

 

And don't mean to infer you are unfit. I'm just reflecting your own disappointment in your performance. There is nothing easy about completing an Ironman. Ever!

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14 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

Sorry. ‘Twas pieman. You guys need to load pics. The P and the B being similar and the same colour fooled me. 

I tried to use a pic of flea from the RHCP but it won’t up load 

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2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

Do the complete opposite to Stickman & u will be flying 

 Correct.  If she trains she will get better. 

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27 minutes ago, Stikman said:

 Correct.  If she trains she will get better. 

I have been telling her for a while she could “get better” but she seems to like ya 

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1 hour ago, IronmanFoz said:

Sorry. ‘Twas pieman. You guys need to load pics. The P and the B being similar and the same colour fooled me. 

Does anybody in their right mind really think AP  would be a good fit in this situation?  I think most of his KQers are so motivated they could have done it uncoached. He doesn't seem to have any Joe or Jolene averages that he takes from fat to fit etc unless he's keeping them secret.. plenty of more 'understanding' coaches out there to support this type of project..

But I didn't realise you meant swimming that slow.  I could almost do an IM swim in similar time just kicking so id do what others say and do some one on one stroke correction first.. 

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6 hours ago, Katz said:

.... I am a terrible, terrible swimmer. Terrible. I am capable of swimming a long way, but I am so very slow it isn't even slightly funny.....

I believe I did mention this. LOL

No, AP would definitely not be a good fit. Though I'd love to see if he were brave enough to take it on. 

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1 hour ago, dazaau said:

And don't mean to infer you are unfit. I'm just reflecting your own disappointment in your performance. There is nothing easy about completing an Ironman. Ever!

I am definitely speed unfit. Endurance, I have a base level of fitness which gets me through.

I also have a level of stubborness which isn't always a great quality, but when it comes to finishing an IM, definitely gives me an advantage over those with a similar level of athletic ability/training.

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10 minutes ago, pieman said:

Does anybody in their right mind really think AP  would be a good fit in this situation?  I think most of his KQers are so motivated they could have done it uncoached. He doesn't seem to have any Joe or Jolene averages that he takes from fat to fit etc unless he's keeping them secret..

Think Plazbot might fit into that category, not sure he was a KQ though

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Just to echo what everybody else said about swimming more = enjoying swimming. I really used to hate it and had to drag myself to the pool to get through 2k. Over the past 12 weeks I've been aiming for 4 swims a week (it's usually more like 2.5 - 3 in the end with travel) and I now think nothing of a 3.5k set and i actually enjoy it! 

Another thing that makes swimming easier for me is having my podcasts. If you're not really feeling up to it it's much easier to think of it as a trip to the pool to listen to some comedy for an hour whilst you happen to be swimming than it is to think of it as an hour's chore. Not for everybody but works for me.

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21 minutes ago, pieman said:

Does anybody in their right mind really think AP  would be a good fit in this situation?  I think most of his KQers are so motivated they could have done it uncoached. He doesn't seem to have any Joe or Jolene averages that he takes from fat to fit etc unless he's keeping them secret.. plenty of more 'understanding' coaches out there to support this type of project..

But I didn't realise you meant swimming that slow.  I could almost do an IM swim in similar time just kicking so id do what others say and do some one on one stroke correction first.. 

Have a look at the last few pics AP has posted of the Mt Cootha ride. 

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14 minutes ago, Cottoneyes said:

Think Plazbot might fit into that category, not sure he was a KQ though

Also motivated and 100% dedicated to the task.  Im talking more someone who just wants to improve, will often have family issues (excuses) that need managing

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6 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Have a look at the last few pics AP has posted of the Mt Cootha ride. 

Im not his FB friend..😁

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He posted a pic on here. One of the guys looked to be 120kg. I’m waiting for a before & after pic of old mate. 

I think Peter said the group looks more like Dads army rather then an elite training g squad 

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43 minutes ago, monkie said:

Just to echo what everybody else said about swimming more = enjoying swimming. I really used to hate it and had to drag myself to the pool to get through 2k. Over the past 12 weeks I've been aiming for 4 swims a week (it's usually more like 2.5 - 3 in the end with travel) and I now think nothing of a 3.5k set and i actually enjoy it! 

Another thing that makes swimming easier for me is having my podcasts. If you're not really feeling up to it it's much easier to think of it as a trip to the pool to listen to some comedy for an hour whilst you happen to be swimming than it is to think of it as an hour's chore. Not for everybody but works for me.

See, for me I hardly swim. It takes way too long and the benefits are not enough. 4 times a week is a huge commitment for 10% of the race time. In winter it's massive. If you are time poor it just doesn't stack up imo. That and it's not fun (to me).

Off my run and ride training and a swim or so a week in the build up to an event I can go 35min for a 1.9 swim (in the ocean, with a wetsuit, which is basically cheating). If I trained hard, what do I get? 5 min? For Katz in an Ironman what does she get, 20min? There are literally hours up for grabs in the cycling and running legs for her.

Better to put that time into riding and running if you are coming off a low speed base IMO. Particularly running. You can take huge amounts of time off the running and cycling legs with run training, and that's where the vast majority of time is spent on the course. You also will swim faster if you get used to pushing yourself constantly (sustainably of course)

I'm not saying you don't need to swim, but if motivation is an issue how is 4 days a week of swimming going to help on top of the required running and cycling that needs to happen to be successful in 90% of the race. Long course triathlon is stacked massively in favour of land sports, good swimmers don't get the advantage they perhaps deserve. 

For the time and motivation poor it's the wrong place to put energy imo. 

Unless of course it appeals to you. We are in this to have fun after all. Nothing wrong with choosing to train doing what you love.

 

 

Edited by dazaau

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8 hours ago, dazaau said:

See, for me I hardly swim. It takes way too long and the benefits are not enough. 4 times a week is a huge commitment for 10% of the race time. In winter it's massive. If you are time poor it just doesn't stack up imo. That and it's not fun (to me).

Off my run and ride training and a swim or so a week in the build up to an event I can go 35min for a 1.9 swim (in the ocean, with a wetsuit, which is basically cheating). If I trained hard, what do I get? 5 min? For Katz in an Ironman what does she get, 20min? There are literally hours up for grabs in the cycling and running legs for her.

Better to put that time into riding and running if you are coming off a low speed base IMO. Particularly running. You can take huge amounts of time off the running and cycling legs with run training, and that's where the vast majority of time is spent on the course. You also will swim faster if you get used to pushing yourself constantly (sustainably of course)

I'm not saying you don't need to swim, but if motivation is an issue how is 4 days a week of swimming going to help on top of the required running and cycling that needs to happen to be successful in 90% of the race. Long course triathlon is stacked massively in favour of land sports, good swimmers don't get the advantage they perhaps deserve. 

For the time and motivation poor it's the wrong place to put energy imo. 

Unless of course it appeals to you. We are in this to have fun after all. Nothing wrong with choosing to train doing what you love.

 

 

Agreed mainly. I was more focusing on "if you want to swim more then do it like this". For me it was the one I skimped on in the past because I love running and Trainer Road keeps me honest on the bike training 

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15 hours ago, Bored@work said:

Have u used training peaks? I found it helped keep me motivated. 

Do you pay for the premium extras?

I've been considering using it for reason you mention and to help planning etc

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1 hour ago, monkie said:

Agreed mainly. I was more focusing on "if you want to swim more then do it like this". For me it was the one I skimped on in the past because I love running and Trainer Road keeps me honest on the bike training 

Right, and if I were to get serious about going sub 4:30 for a half I'd need to work on the swim, no doubt.

And agree that more swimming seems to make it more enjoyable for some. I have a mate who is hooked, never rides anymore!

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