Jump to content
Peter

Israel Folau

Recommended Posts

As a moderator can I ask that we keep this respectful please. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, roxii said:

As a moderator can I ask that we keep this respectful please. 

Whenever a Christian posts in a thread, it's only a matter of time before an atheist tells him how stupid he is

Sort of like Godwin's law, only more awesome.  I'm calling it 'Jimbo's law'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Whenever a Christian posts in a thread, it's only a matter of time before an atheist tells him how stupid he is

Same as if an atheist posts a christian will tell them they're going to hell...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Whenever a Christian posts in a thread, it's only a matter of time before an atheist tells him how stupid he is

Sort of like Godwin's law, only more awesome.  I'm calling it 'Jimbo's law'

Whenever anyone posts anything on this site, it's only a matter of time before 'Jimbo' tells them how stupid they are... I'm calling it "Xcom's law".

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, XCOM.! said:

Oh, FFS... how is that different to Scientology BS we all scoff at?

Religion is just a desperate childish attempt to deal with the scary fact that you are going to die.

I really struggle to understand how otherwise sensible people can base their very short lives around fairy-tales. I think it should be one of the section-44 exclusion conditions for being a member of parliament.

Personally, I'm not scared of dying, because I won't know anything about it - I'll be dead.

Well in fairness Christians still have to die! Can't say I'm looking forward to the process. However the overall point is not because people are scared of death, it's that things should be put right, because they clearly aren't right now. 

But honestly if there is no new life after death what's the point of religion? As Paul puts it:

“For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.”

So Christianity does have some perspective on itself, Paul also says elsewhere that the gospel appears foolish to those who don't believe. It's always been a bit out there! I get that it sounds ludicrous.

But I guess isn't the fact that we are here at all a bit ludicrous? Either you believe it was the most unlikely of accidents that occurred to initially start life, and that it amazingly improves itself over time, or you believe someone did it. If you can do it once surely you can do it again?

I'm sorry I am not eligible to stand for election in your utopian parliament Xcom, though you better do a better job of keeping on top of section 44 than the real parliament or I might slip through ;)

 

 

Edited by dazaau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dazaau said:

But honestly if there is no new life after death what's the point?

There is no point... there is simply self awareness, and a reluctance to accept that ends with death.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, XCOM.! said:

Oh, FFS... how is that different to Scientology BS we all scoff at?

Religion is just a desperate childish attempt to deal with the scary fact that you are going to die.

I really struggle to understand how otherwise sensible people can base their very short lives around fairy-tales. I think it should be one of the section-44 exclusion conditions for being a member of parliament.

Personally, I'm not scared of dying, because I won't know anything about it - I'll be dead.

but you can't be sure there isn't a 'higher' being, nor what happens when we die, unless you have previously been dead. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Prince said:

but you can't be sure there isn't a 'higher' being, nor what happens when we die, unless you have previously been dead. 

I can't be sure I'm not going to win the lotto each week either, but I don't base my life around the fact that I might.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, XCOM.! said:

There is no point... there is simply self awareness, and a reluctance to accept that ends with death.

I was referring to religion, but yes I understand that's the atheists position. Hopefully we can assume there also an appreciation of the life we do have in there as well, even though it can be a bit crappy at times, more for some than others. 

Edited by dazaau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Prince said:

but you can't be sure there isn't a 'higher' being, nor what happens when we die, unless you have previously been dead. 

"The good news is there's no devil. The bad news is there's no heaven. There's nothing."   Packer, K.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dazaau said:

Hopefully we can assume there also an appreciation of the life we do have in there as well, even though it can be a bit crappy at times, more for some than others. 

Yep, that's where we agree.

As an atheist, I don't believe there is a "point" to life per-se, but that's not the same as believing life has no value as a consequence. 

I disagree with religion, am surprised it survives in educated communities, and am dismayed that so much harm has been caused in the name of various religions.

However, I still believe that each individual has the right to live their life as they wish and believe what they wish, even if I disagree with it and might argue over the logic of it, provided they don't deny the same rights to others.

And for those who won't accept those basic constraints of community and decency, we have a rule of law to provide boundaries.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, XCOM.! said:

and am dismayed that so much harm has been caused in the name of various religions.

I also agree with this. People have used religion to do a lot of harm. While humanity uses many tools it is particularly sad to me that this is one of them, and used so effectively in some cases too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dazaau said:

But honestly if there is no new life after death what's the point?

Well there is new life after death.  You are the new life, the point if you like, of all of your ancestors.  Not to suggest that those who don't procreate have no point to their existence but broadly speaking your afterlife is lived by others.  No need for imagined resurrections or the like.

The use of religion as a motivation for harming others is just an expression of this.  We are here to help our tribe, our DNA, win the great struggle for life over that which is different.  The human brain is build on the ancestral brain.  It hasn't, generally speaking, discarded the now useless parts and functions it has simply added to it.  The prefrontal cortex moderates our more animalistic functions.  Unless you believe in divine creation in it's most literal form and use "mysterious ways" to dispute evidence to the contrary then it's rather undeniable that we are just another animal motivated at our core by the same instincts.  Savagery should really come as no surprise.

In any event, if there is a god then you can strike off all the religions that have had tragedy or misfortune strike them I guess.  Either that or else they are not benevolent, not omnipotent or both.  Maybe there is a god and they don't follow the Gospel according to Katz (i.e. they're a bit of an arsehole.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Stikman said:

Unless you believe in divine creation in it's most literal form and use "mysterious ways" to dispute evidence to the contrary ...

LOL... there's an entire Jim Jefferies routine built around that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like I accidentally started a religion.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Katz said:

I feel like I accidentally started a religion.......

Nah, the Egyptians worshiped 😺 millennia ago.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, XCOM.! said:

Whenever anyone posts anything on this site, it's only a matter of time before 'Jimbo' tells them how stupid they are... I'm calling it "Xcom's law".

Jimbo's law can be evidenced 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stikman said:

Well there is new life after death.  You are the new life, the point if you like, of all of your ancestors.  Not to suggest that those who don't procreate have no point to their existence but broadly speaking your afterlife is lived by others.  No need for imagined resurrections or the like.

 

In any event, if there is a god then you can strike off all the religions that have had tragedy or misfortune strike them I guess.  Either that or else they are not benevolent, not omnipotent or both.  Maybe there is a god and they don't follow the Gospel according to Katz (i.e. they're a bit of an arsehole.)

Ok, so I've made it clear in my original post I was referring to religion, not life in general, sorry for the confusion.

Christianity does not promise an easy life on Earth, hence why resurrection is important to Christianity. If anything Jesus is promising some hardship. 

Prosperity doctrine is just plain wrong. Made the mistake of subconsciously believing you can avoid suffering - yeah, nah. 

Re God can't be good and powerful and suffering exist, I would disagree (I clearly would though wouldn't I ;) ).

Christians believe that God will remove all suffering in the end, but if he were to remove the possibility of any suffering from the beginning you would have people with no will of their own. I'll admit I've skirted arround the issue of natural disasters here but I'm still working through that and it's interelated with sin and evil working against God's good plans for his creation.

Religion is the story of God relating to people and the redeeming of his creation, and so you can't really judge God's effectiveness until the end of that story. If you believe what the Bible says will happen God does pretty well in the end. 

 

Edited by dazaau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, trinube said:

Same as if an atheist posts a christian will tell them they're going to hell...

I think that's a little unfair. I don't specifically  recall anyone doing that here. But I get your point on freedom to express views that you have been making throughout this thread.

Edited by dazaau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@dazaau this is not intended as a troll, it's a genuine question because it puzzles me with all religious followers.  Do you ever worry that what you are saying is true but that you've picked (or more likely inherited) the wrong religion or even just the wrong form of Christianity?  I mean, it seems that to have faith you have to have faith in a hell of a lot of things being just so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Stikman said:

@dazaau this is not intended as a troll, it's a genuine question because it puzzles me with all religious followers.  Do you ever worry that what you are saying is true but that you've picked (or more likely inherited) the wrong religion or even just the wrong form of Christianity?  I mean, it seems that to have faith you have to have faith in a hell of a lot of things being just so.

No offence taken stikman, it is a little weird having these conversations on an internet forum for all to see and recorded forever in time! 

But it's a legitimate question and I've already admitted to struggling with doubts from time to time, as there are some hard issues to work through. But I do also think that doubt is sometimes part of the journey of faith. 

Re your specific question, I view it like this. If there is a God, then he is either reaching out to his creation or he isn't. If he isn't then there's not much you can do. Believe, don't believe, doesn't make any difference.

If he is then it makes sense that he has revealed himself, and likely in one of the religions thats been around a while. 

In my opinion the most credible religion is Christianity (that's a whole thread In itself, and is of course my interpretation of the facts - others will disagree), so I personally don't worry too much about if Christianity is the "right one" so to speak.

Denominations have far more in common than divides us so that's not a big deal either, Christians should follow Jesus not a denomination. I've attended Anglican, Baptist and Presbyterian churches and we all get along and agree on the important stuff. 

But I do consider the higher order problems mentioned above, and how to understand and synergise what I read in the Bible with history and evidence around me. Which does present it's challenges from time to time.

I certainly don't claim to have everything figured out. The older I get the less I think I know!

Edited by dazaau
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Dazaau,

This is informative. Can i also ask a question. (an am in no way taking the piss).

What would it do to your faith if they found life on another planet? I had heard that this may turn some religions on their head. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have so many people blocked I'm finding it almost impossible to follow this thread. Probably a good thing.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Prince said:

Hi Dazaau,

This is informative. Can i also ask a question. (an am in no way taking the piss).

What would it do to your faith if they found life on another planet? I had heard that this may turn some religions on their head. 

Well that's a random one! But let's entertain it because you asked...

For sure it would make me question it, as theologically I struggle to see how that works. I don't think there is life on other planets.

However, there is nothing explicit in the Bible to say there aren't lifeforms outside earth I suppose, and in some very old sections a vague hint that there might have been depending on your interpretation!? 

Dinosaur fossils spun people out when they were found, but not now. 

Angels etc are just a creation in another dimension or something, that's like an alien right (probably not since they aren't pay of the natural world)? There are some weird books about abductions and spiritual beings. Not my cup of tea, way too weird! 

But yes, while others would accept it I'd have to really work through that one I think!

While a practically limitless universe, spontaneous life and the theory of evolution suggest that for an atheist it is quite likely there would be other lifeforms, including intelligent lifeforms, out there somewhere I'm pretty sure the reality would weird most people out.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, trinube said:

I have so many people blocked I'm finding it almost impossible to follow this thread. Probably a good thing.

This is weird because you quote iron Jimbo, who I thought was the most popular ignore list candidate in these here parts! :lol: Who you got on ignore?

(no offence meant IJ, you are not on my ignore list! - no one is!) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dazaau said:

This is weird because you quote iron Jimbo, who I thought was the most popular ignore list candidate in these here parts! :lol: Who you got on ignore?

(no offence meant IJ, you are not on my ignore list! - no one is!) 

If you don't get a response to that one, you know who one of them is. :)

 

And thanks Dazaau, for your responses here. A lot of Christians would have shut up shop & not been so open. It's good to hear both sides.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dazaau said:

This is weird because you quote iron Jimbo, who I thought was the most popular ignore list candidate in these here parts! :lol: Who you got on ignore?

(no offence meant IJ, you are not on my ignore list! - no one is!) 

Not at all

They block me because of fear.  It's essentially a plea of no contest 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

If you don't get a response to that one, you know who one of them is. :)

 

And thanks Dazaau, for your responses here. A lot of Christians would have shut up shop & not been so open. It's good to hear both sides.

Ha ha, you are right! 😥

Thanks Ex. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

A lot of Christians would have shut up shop & not been so open.

I wonder why...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, dazaau said:

Well that's a random one! But let's entertain it because you asked...

For sure it would make me question it, as theologically I struggle to see how that works. I don't think there is life on other planets.

However, there is nothing explicit in the Bible to say there aren't lifeforms outside earth I suppose, and in some very old sections a vague hint that there might have been depending on your interpretation!? 

Dinosaur fossils spun people out when they were found, but not now. 

Angels etc are just a creation in another dimension or something, that's like an alien right (probably not since they aren't pay of the natural world)? There are some weird books about abductions and spiritual beings. Not my cup of tea, way too weird! 

But yes, while others would accept it I'd have to really work through that one I think!

While a practically limitless universe, spontaneous life and the theory of evolution suggest that for an atheist it is quite likely there would be other lifeforms, including intelligent lifeforms, out there somewhere I'm pretty sure the reality would weird most people out.

 

thanks for the incite. sorry, it was a bit random, but I only ask as often I hear people say 'if they find life on other planets, it would rock relegion", but never understood why. 

I am guessing though not so much L Ron Hubbards world. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

 

 

And thanks Dazaau, for your responses here. A lot of Christians would have shut up shop & not been so open. It's good to hear both sides.

hear hear!.  All perspectives are welcome. I learn more on here than facebook. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, dazaau said:

 There are some weird books about abductions and spiritual beings. Not my cup of tea, way too weird!

I'm with you there.

I read this weird book once about these spiritual beings, and this chick named Dinah who was abducted....

Way too crazy for me. :no:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Prince said:

thanks for the incite. sorry, it was a bit random, but I only ask as often I hear people say 'if they find life on other planets, it would rock relegion", but never understood why. 

I thought the good book said god created the heavens and the earth. 

I just assumed that would be all inclusive, so not sure why it would be a problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, roxii said:

I thought the good book said god created the heavens and the earth. 

I just assumed that would be all inclusive, so not sure why it would be a problem. 

That's what I would have thought as well. Perhaps taking a lighter look at it, another world could be considered like a test-run. RevA before Rev0 IFC*. 

 

* issued for creation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Katz said:

That's what I would have thought as well. Perhaps taking a lighter look at it, another world could be considered like a test-run. RevA before Rev0 IFC*. 

 

* issued for creation

or maybe we are the test run... dammit, I am always second. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Katz said:

That's what I would have thought as well. Perhaps taking a lighter look at it, another world could be considered like a test-run. RevA before Rev0 IFC*. 

 

* issued for creation

Is evolution the architects mark ups? 

 

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folau has been sacked

This is headed for the courts, and I'm guessing it'll cost them plenty 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder what the outcome would have been if a Muslim Wallabies player quoted something from the Koran in a tweet? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, A2K said:

I wonder what the outcome would have been if a Muslim Wallabies player quoted something from the Koran in a tweet? 

Racist...

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sooooo many verses Izzy could have quoted from the Bible that wouldn't have been in violation of the code of conduct or his contract.

He could have done that and spread the word about his chosen Religion, continued to play Rugby and millions but chose not to.

Weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, nealo said:

Sooooo many verses Izzy could have quoted from the Bible that wouldn't have been in violation of the code of conduct or his contract.

He could have done that and spread the word about his chosen Religion, continued to play Rugby and millions but chose not to.

Weird.

No contract can overrule the Anti-Discrimination Act

So his contract cannot prevent him quoting any verse from the bible

Or the Koran, or the hadith, or the sutras, or An Inconvenient Truth, or any other religious text

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Folau has been sacked

This is headed for the courts, and I'm guessing it'll cost them plenty 

Apparently the RA CEO didn't even speak to Folau directly to tell him the result.  

Now there's real courage in leadership...not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I missing something? Which part of scripture was he quoting? 

Edit: Sorry just went and looked at the post in full. The image is his interpretation and he's accompanied that by a piece of scripture that doesn't use the word homosexual at all...

Edited by monkie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scripture:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse.

Fornication: sexual intercourse between people not married to each other.

Uncleanness: morally impure; evil; vile: unclean thoughts.

Lasciviousness: inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd

Idolatry: the worship of idols

Witchcraft: the practice of magic, especially black magic; the use of spells.

Hatred: intense dislike; hate. <- He probably should have looked a bit more at this one.

Envyings: a feeling of resentful discontent, begrudging admiration, or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, possessions, or attainments; desire for something possessed by another. 

Murders: Well, murders.

Drunkenness: Being drunk!

Revellings: having a great time, or delighting in something.

 

Nothing in there about the gays so to post an image alongside it claiming that homosexuals are going to hell just shows that the guy's a homophobe.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

No contract can overrule the Anti-Discrimination Act

So his contract cannot prevent him quoting any verse from the bible

Or the Koran, or the hadith, or the sutras, or An Inconvenient Truth, or any other religious text

Where do I find Religion in the Anti-Discrimination Act?

Interesting reading

http://theconversation.com/why-australia-does-not-need-a-religious-discrimination-act-99666

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, monkie said:

The scripture:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse.

Fornication: sexual intercourse between people not married to each other.

Uncleanness: morally impure; evil; vile: unclean thoughts.

Lasciviousness: inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd

Idolatry: the worship of idols

Witchcraft: the practice of magic, especially black magic; the use of spells.

Hatred: intense dislike; hate. <- He probably should have looked a bit more at this one.

Envyings: a feeling of resentful discontent, begrudging admiration, or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, possessions, or attainments; desire for something possessed by another. 

Murders: Well, murders.

Drunkenness: Being drunk!

Revellings: having a great time, or delighting in something.

 

Nothing in there about the gays so to post an image alongside it claiming that homosexuals are going to hell just shows that the guy's a homophobe.

 

“Variance”?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Parkside said:

“Variance”?

Missed that... I guess that must refer to the square of the standard deviation...

Edited by monkie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also missed out  emulations, wrath, strife, seditions and heresies... you'll have to do your own Googling on those ones but I still don't think most people would include homosexuality in those definitions! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...