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AP's training tip # 4

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Training tip # 4

Learn to recognise quality training, it can save your race. No-one needs to be good at trudging along.

To train for a race that will take from 9hrs to 15hrs, for most people, fuel efficiency and endurance are the greatest needs. Sure you need good core strength to hold your posture through the run, especially in an Ironman marathon when you start it already nearly worn out.

You need good flexibility and as efficient a swim stroke as you can manage to develop, in order to swim the distance and not come out of the water exhausted. But you will find that the people who swim good times, swim often. I see triathletes too tired to hold their technique together, as a result while they’re driven to get the meters done, they’re gaining nothing. Sometimes it’s time to get out after 800-1,000m. One thousand meters of good swimming is more value than 1,000 good with another 1,000m of sh!t added onto it.

With endurance and fuel efficiency as your main requirements, you need to accumulate lots of hours in each sport. There’s no point in dragging your sorry ass through sessions just to build these hours. There’s is no point in practising poor technique in any of the disciplines. You would be training yourself to trudge through the race, instead of racing it.

It doesn’t matter what level you are, nine hours or thirteen hours, you can still race the course. The quickest way to cover the distance is with the best technique. Quality training doesn’t mean going flat out. It means doing what you do as well as you can do it. The object is to gain the strength, fitness and/or endurance with the best technique. Training should be practice first, actual training is what happens while you practice the best technique.

In a two hour run for instance, if the last half is a survival shuffle, all you’re doing is training yourself to do the survival shuffle. On the other hand if the 2hr run is punctuated every 10min with 20 steps of walking, then each start up is focused on starting with good technique and holding it. The run then becomes twelve short pieces of good quality, rather than one hour of good and one hour of crap. Also an Ironman marathon is generally divided into 2km pieces by the aid stations, so the run/walk approach is training you to run efficiently between aid stations.

There are some days when because of outside stresses in your life, you’re just not up to training. It’s important to not make this decision while you’re still laying in bed. Get up, get ready, even start out, sometimes you come good and have a great day. Sometimes you will gain more by going back to bed, if there’s no quality in the workout, there’s no point in wearing out lycra or running shoes.  Train for gain, not to make your diary look good.

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29 minutes ago, AP said:

There are some days when because of outside stresses in your life, you’re just not up to training. It’s important to not make this decision while you’re still laying in bed. Get up, get ready, even start out, sometimes you come good and have a great day. Sometimes you will gain more by going back to bed, if there’s no quality in the workout, there’s no point in wearing out lycra or running shoes.  Train for gain, not to make your diary look good.

This is so true. I've started to implement the rule that I can drop a session after 10 minutes but I have to get in the pool or get on the road or the trainer before I let myself do it. I don't always stick to it (on Friday I just couldn't face leaving the house through to exhaustion) but it means you surprise yourself a lot! It then becomes "Oh, this is going OK, let's get to 50% of the target" then you get to 50 and think "Actually, this feels pretty great, let's get to 80" and then "We're there and feeling fine, let's finish it off". 

A few times it's "Yeah, nah" and go do some Yoga instead.

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I would say that some of the sessions I have missed have been more beneficial over the long term, and kept me in the sport longer than if I had of wasted my time doing them.

I think it's often important to step back and look at yourself from a distance (or look in the mirror and if Keith Richards is looking back - go back to bed)

For people racing Port in four weeks time, you'll gain nothing from a missed session, but you might lose more by doing it 😏

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11 hours ago, AP said:

Training tip # 4

Learn to recognise quality training, it can save your race. No-one needs to be good at trudging along.

To train for a race that will take from 9hrs to 15hrs, for most people, fuel efficiency and endurance are the greatest needs. Sure you need good core strength to hold your posture through the run, especially in an Ironman marathon when you start it already nearly worn out.

You need good flexibility and as efficient a swim stroke as you can manage to develop, in order to swim the distance and not come out of the water exhausted. But you will find that the people who swim good times, swim often. I see triathletes too tired to hold their technique together, as a result while they’re driven to get the meters done, they’re gaining nothing. Sometimes it’s time to get out after 800-1,000m. One thousand meters of good swimming is more value than 1,000 good with another 1,000m of sh!t added onto it.

With endurance and fuel efficiency as your main requirements, you need to accumulate lots of hours in each sport. There’s no point in dragging your sorry ass through sessions just to build these hours. There’s is no point in practising poor technique in any of the disciplines. You would be training yourself to trudge through the race, instead of racing it.

It doesn’t matter what level you are, nine hours or thirteen hours, you can still race the course. The quickest way to cover the distance is with the best technique. Quality training doesn’t mean going flat out. It means doing what you do as well as you can do it. The object is to gain the strength, fitness and/or endurance with the best technique. Training should be practice first, actual training is what happens while you practice the best technique.

In a two hour run for instance, if the last half is a survival shuffle, all you’re doing is training yourself to do the survival shuffle. On the other hand if the 2hr run is punctuated every 10min with 20 steps of walking, then each start up is focused on starting with good technique and holding it. The run then becomes twelve short pieces of good quality, rather than one hour of good and one hour of crap. Also an Ironman marathon is generally divided into 2km pieces by the aid stations, so the run/walk approach is training you to run efficiently between aid stations.

There are some days when because of outside stresses in your life, you’re just not up to training. It’s important to not make this decision while you’re still laying in bed. Get up, get ready, even start out, sometimes you come good and have a great day. Sometimes you will gain more by going back to bed, if there’s no quality in the workout, there’s no point in wearing out lycra or running shoes.  Train for gain, not to make your diary look good.

Do you have any “rule(s) of thumb” about when you begin to see significant diminishing returns on training hours?

Put another way, I suspect that for most people training for IM (at least those working full time to pay off the mortgage and put kids through school) struggling to find the time to train enough is more common than training too much.

 

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I tend to agree with this tip but thinking about, I broke all the rules yesterday in order to train my mental strength.

Saturday I ran a trail race just under 20km in 1:46 and I fell over which meant I was was pretty stiff that evening and Sunday morning.  Sunday's plan was a 3hr easy run.  I rarely do back to back running for all the reasons AP states but I needed to train on tired legs, mostly for the mental aspect.

General plan was/is to ride 3hrs or so on Sundays and and run off the bike a little. This gives me the tired legs but without destroying my back.  Yesterday i could not ride because my shoulder hurt from the tumble. So forced myself out the door and did want to turn around after a while but sucked it up and ran (and walked some steep trails) for 3hrs 8mins.

Mentally, i felt very strong for doing this, physically, I'm not sure I gained anything.  I don't think i'll be repeating it anytime soon, I know that. :lol:

 

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2 hours ago, trilobite said:

Do you have any “rule(s) of thumb” about when you begin to see significant diminishing returns on training hours?

Put another way, I suspect that for most people training for IM (at least those working full time to pay off the mortgage and put kids through school) struggling to find the time to train enough is more common than training too much.

 

I’ll say 15 on the hours and support your comment. Pretty much any incremental up to there, endurance, aerobic etc - would be providing benefit to most AG Ironman athlete. (Unless over or under trained) 

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AP, how do you know when someone is taking the "only doing quality" option and when someone is taking the "I don't want to do this" option?

 

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Put another way, I suspect that for most people training for IM (at least those working full time to pay off the mortgage and put kids through school) struggling to find the time to train enough is more common than training too much.

I think the worst part of that scenario is attaching guilt to the situation - we only really need to train in the mornings, leaving the evenings free for "normal life" - so I think we can all find 12-15hrs in a week which we could put aside for 12-16 weeks training for our annual Ironman 

If we approach it like a business where you have a busy period of the year, where we have to work harder and be more organised than the rest of the year, you just get through it - you don't have to keep all the balls in the aair all the time. 

Quote

AP, how do you know when someone is taking the "only doing quality" option and when someone is taking the "I don't want to do this" option?

That comes down to the strength of their goals - it's easier to give yourself discounts if your goals are vague or soft 😥

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11 hours ago, AP said:

I think the worst part of that scenario is attaching guilt to the situation - we only really need to train in the mornings, leaving the evenings free for "normal life" - so I think we can all find 12-15hrs in a week which we could put aside for 12-16 weeks training for our annual Ironman 

If we approach it like a business where you have a busy period of the year, where we have to work harder and be more organised than the rest of the year, you just get through it - you don't have to keep all the balls in the aair all the time. 

That comes down to the strength of their goals - it's easier to give yourself discounts if your goals are vague or soft 😥

Thanks.

I had come away with the impression from various “what it takes to qualify for Kona” threads that for a male aged between 20 to 60 (excluding former elite athletes) qualifying on under 15 hours a week over a multi year apprenticeship was a pipe dream?

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8 hours ago, trilobite said:

Thanks.

I had come away with the impression from various “what it takes to qualify for Kona” threads that for a male aged between 20 to 60 (excluding former elite athletes) qualifying on under 15 hours a week over a multi year apprenticeship was a pipe dream?

its the doctrine around here

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10 hours ago, trilobite said:

Thanks.

I had come away with the impression from various “what it takes to qualify for Kona” threads that for a male aged between 20 to 60 (excluding former elite athletes) qualifying on under 15 hours a week over a multi year apprenticeship was a pipe dream?

The people who call it a pipe dream are not addressing their weaknesses systematically and don't have a goal strong enough to bury their doubts 😥

* You have to honestly asses your previous performances (or have someone who you trust do this for you)

* You have to be prepared to put aside 3-6months to focus on bringing a weakness up to scratch

* You have to get off the bike with a Kona spot in your hands and defend it - so many have a chance up until the run

* You have to realise that it's all the little things that add up to that one special day

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On 10/04/2019 at 8:34 AM, AP said:

The people who call it a pipe dream are not addressing their weaknesses systematically and don't have a goal strong enough to bury their doubts 😥

* You have to honestly asses your previous performances (or have someone who you trust do this for you)

* You have to be prepared to put aside 3-6months to focus on bringing a weakness up to scratch

* You have to get off the bike with a Kona spot in your hands and defend it - so many have a chance up until the run

* You have to realise that it's all the little things that add up to that one special day

So do you reckon you could get (let’s pick from a recent poster on this thread) Tyno to Kona on under 12-15 hours training a couple of concentrated 12-16 week blocks a year, dropping to lower volume the rest of the time?

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4 minutes ago, trilobite said:

So do you reckon you could get (let’s pick from a recent poster on this thread) Tyno to Kona on under 12-15 hours training a couple of concentrated 12-16 week blocks a year, dropping to lower volume the rest of the time?

No sorry - you've purposely chosen someone who really doesn't want it  - he finds excuses too easy to come by - in addition to the 12-15hrs a week there has to be a solid work ethic and a strong desire

You can't just nominate  some random guy - the people who can do this, want it - they want it bad enough to do things others won't do - simple things that may not make much sense at the time - go through most of the posts on this forum and read what's written - there's only 10% of the posters who could do it - the other 90% regularly give us all the reasons why they cant - if you're focused on why you can't, it's just never going to happen  

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7 minutes ago, AP said:

No sorry - you've purposely chosen someone who really doesn't want it  -

This is true. But it’s not my fault......

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2 hours ago, AP said:

No sorry - you've purposely chosen someone who really doesn't want it  - he finds excuses too easy to come by - in addition to the 12-15hrs a week there has to be a solid work ethic and a strong desire

You can't just nominate  some random guy - the people who can do this, want it - they want it bad enough to do things others won't do - simple things that may not make much sense at the time - go through most of the posts on this forum and read what's written - there's only 10% of the posters who could do it - the other 90% regularly give us all the reasons why they cant - if you're focused on why you can't, it's just never going to happen  

This is awesome & it's great you have such believe in the people you train. But is there anyone in your squad who really wants it, does the training & and has been training with you for over 4 years & still hasn't got to Kona?

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2 hours ago, AP said:

No sorry - you've purposely chosen someone who really doesn't want it  - he finds excuses too easy to come by - in addition to the 12-15hrs a week there has to be a solid work ethic and a strong desire

You can't just nominate  some random guy - the people who can do this, want it - they want it bad enough to do things others won't do - simple things that may not make much sense at the time - go through most of the posts on this forum and read what's written - there's only 10% of the posters who could do it - the other 90% regularly give us all the reasons why they cant - if you're focused on why you can't, it's just never going to happen  

Honestly I simply scrolled up the thread and after passing over ex (dealing with injury) and bored (has had some differences of opinion with you), landed on Tyno.

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2 hours ago, AP said:

No sorry - you've purposely chosen someone who really doesn't want it  - he finds excuses too easy to come by - in addition to the 12-15hrs a week there has to be a solid work ethic and a strong desire

You can't just nominate  some random guy - the people who can do this, want it - they want it bad enough to do things others won't do - simple things that may not make much sense at the time - go through most of the posts on this forum and read what's written - there's only 10% of the posters who could do it - the other 90% regularly give us all the reasons why they cant - if you're focused on why you can't, it's just never going to happen  

How about Nick P?

From what I saw he tried very hard for a few years, but couldn't get there. He had a couple weaknesses that as a coach you should have been specifically working on, and I feel with those solved he might have made it. He was probably in the most competitive age bracket there was. Is it just that hard, or didn't he want it enough?

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13 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

How about Nick P?

From what I saw he tried very hard for a few years, but couldn't get there. He had a couple weaknesses that as a coach you should have been specifically working on, and I feel with those solved he might have made it. He was probably in the most competitive age bracket there was. Is it just that hard, or didn't he want it enough?

what about YoYo? 

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34 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

How about Nick P?

From what I saw he tried very hard for a few years, but couldn't get there. He had a couple weaknesses that as a coach you should have been specifically working on, and I feel with those solved he might have made it. He was probably in the most competitive age bracket there was. Is it just that hard, or didn't he want it enough?

His Strava numbers don’t suggest a lack of “work ethic”...

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1 minute ago, trilobite said:

His Strava numbers don’t suggest a lack of “work ethic”...

I used to run with him some lunch breaks. He needed to work on it a bit more I think, but Al was working on it. He used to tell me about his Lamington rides (not donuts B@W). They were incredible. I think he did a 5000m around those climbs one day.

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Each of the guys mentioned were so close when they walked away - each one had every quality but came up a little short on persistence - so often people become discouraged shortly before a breakthrough Nick can still do it - I have a lot of belief in him - don't be surprised if he does pull it off 😎

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2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

what's your excuse.

I don't have an excuse.

AP nailed it in this case.

I have no drive to do it.

I'm excellent at paying people to write me plans and not following them though.

Almost elite, just lacking that bit of drive to be truly world class at it though. :D

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bb5da1656aba9bff49079bfd64d6d8da-300x298

I have known Tyno for 4-5yrs he does just enough to still be fit and reasonably healthy - he's happy doing what he does - he doesn't feel he's missing out on anything - he has a good life

Nick P on the other hand is one of the toughest guys I have ever met - he will get there - I know I can get him there - he's still building hours in his body while he's doing his own thing - when he wants something bad enough he gets it 

Back to the hours - it's 15hrs not 13hrs 

Edited by AP

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11 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Yo @iFoz how many hours a week are u training & for how many years? 

If you do the legacy program then I can coach you to Kona on way less than 15 hours a week...

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Just now, pieman said:

If you do the legacy program then I can coach you to Kona on way less than 15 hours a week...

You could do it on 15 hours a year.

 

 

 

For about 15 years now isn't it?

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1 hour ago, Bored@work said:

Yo @iFoz how many hours a week are u training & for how many years? 

I had a bad start to this year, with interstate project work and sickness, (Excuses, excuses). But I’ve been averaging 15 hours / week since the beginning of March.

Nine years at IM distance. Port will be number 15 and my Kona validator. Port 2017 was my best placing (but not a PB time) at 9th. 

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It's easy, in hindsight, to say that when someone ticks all the supposed boxes but doesn't make it, that they just "Didn't want it enough".

As opposed to something concrete

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1 hour ago, Turts said:

It's easy, in hindsight, to say that when someone ticks all the supposed boxes but doesn't make it, that they just "Didn't want it enough".

As opposed to something concrete

Yep, it denies the fact that there were better athletes on the day. The coach may have done their best, the athlete may have done their best, but they still came up short. Nothing to do with "wanting it enough." Someone else's training and natural gifts were just better on that day. 

There are so many athletes who train and race and make the Kona qualifying, but don't take the spot. Most don't tak the spot for many different reasons, hence why there's roll downs. Wanting it is a nonsense description. Having the internal drive and persistence to get a Kona spot, describes that particular personal quality better. 

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2 hours ago, Turts said:

It's easy, in hindsight, to say that when someone ticks all the supposed boxes but doesn't make it, that they just "Didn't want it enough".

As opposed to something concrete

Heaven forbid 3 people want it enough, train hard for 15+ hours a week for a number of years, and all turn up to a race that only has 2 qualifying places.

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8 hours ago, Greyman said:

Having the internal drive and persistence to get a Kona spot, describes that particular personal quality better. 

This is "wanting it enough" - with the internal drive and PERSISTENCE it will happen for most 

Quote

Heaven forbid 3 people want it enough, train hard for 15+ hours a week for a number of years, and all turn up to a race that only has 2 qualifying places.

Don't walk away keep at it 😥

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2 hours ago, AP said:

Don't walk away keep at it 😥

Yep. 

Until you're the only one in your age group. Then it'll happen. 

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I’m with AP on most things but not on this one 

if someone just simply doesn’t have the genetics either mentally and or physically then they will never get to kona on a KQ (unless nobody else shows up ) doesn’t matter how many 15hrs a week they log 

 

if someone who is borderline on KQ and who races in  australia , then they will need to be doing more than 15hrs a week (20 plus) and nail the quality V quantity perfectly 

if someone who is genetically gifted to IM raceing then most will get away with less than 15hrs awekk and on only a 10-12 week build 

 

qualifying fir Kona (in oz) is easier now than it was 15 years ago and even more so than it was 5-7 years ago with more races , more spots , less competition and far less “cream” in the competitive age groups 

 

if these dudes that have been rolling around doing 15hrs or less for years and havnt KQd yet then then never will , unless they keep going until they are the only person in there age group or it rolls to 15th place , or they do more “work” and possibly find a better  “method” that suits there physical and mental abilities 

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2 hours ago, ironpo said:

if someone just simply doesn’t have the genetics either mentally and or physically then they will never get to kona on a KQ (unless nobody else shows up ) doesn’t matter how many 15hrs a week they log 

I agree.  For a male between 25 and 40, you would have to be naturally talented or extremely lucky to qualify on 15 hours a week.

The thing about endurance racing is that it favours those who want to put in more work. So you can start to overcome the lack of natural talent with more training.  At 20 to 22 hours a week, you are going a long way to counter the lack of natural talent (assuming a quality training program). 

Your natural ability will limit the speed you can achieve. The volume of training can increase the length of time before you slow down.

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15 hours a week is more like 19 hours a week anyway.

The time you spend getting to pools and running tracks and bike sessions or a strength session.  You have to include that time.

The sport is a massive time suck if you are really putting in big hours.

Even the time after a bike run session of showers and food and stretching etc...  Forget the time actually running or cycling.

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17 minutes ago, Peter said:

15 hours a week is more like 19 hours a week anyway.

The time you spend getting to pools and running tracks and bike sessions or a strength session.  You have to include that time.

The sport is a massive time suck if you are really putting in big hours.

Even the time after a bike run session of showers and food and stretching etc...  Forget the time actually running or cycling.

Not if you do it properly.

It takes me an hour each way to get to work. When I was training properly, I was doing my ride from home and finishing at work. Some days it would be 100km, some days reps, some days TT at Nundah, but always as part of the commute to work. My swim would be on the way to work, and my running at lunchtime from the office. If I didn't run, I didn't take lunch.

So looking at it that way:

My 3 hours swimming was 3 hours.

My 3 hours running was 2 hours (that was the weekend long run & getting to & from it)

My 10 hours cycling was 7 hours (4 rides, 3 during the week on the way to work, so subtract the 3 hours normal commuting).

My 16 hours was really 12 hours.

And this doesn't count the recovery rides that were the ride home from work. That actually took less time than a car/train, so I could claim even less time per week to get my 16 hours training in.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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6 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Not if you do it properly.

It takes me an hour each way to get to work. When I was training properly, I was doing my ride from home and finishing at work. Some days it would be 100km, some days reps, some days TT at Nundah, but always as part of the commute to work. My swim would be on the way to work, and my running at lunchtime from the office. If I didn't run, I didn't take lunch.

Not everyone has this flexibility in fact I'd think a few do. You're lucky you have/had that. 

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29 minutes ago, willie said:

Not everyone has this flexibility in fact I'd think a few do. You're lucky you have/had that. 

Anybody with an office job does. Yes the longer lunch break helps, but the rest would be no different if I was doing a strict 9 to 5 job. As a matter of fact, I was always at work by 7:30am, usually earlier. I just made sure I got up earlier to do the longer sessions. 

And don't say what about the family. If I was going straight to work without training, I'd have to leave before 6:30 anyway, and no-one else was up by then in this house. I always ironed my son's uniform before I left, or the night before, and prepared part of his lunch in the morning. 

 

ETA: You just have to want it enough. :)

And to be honest, I have a wife who sees any type of sport as a waste of time, so I didn't want to let it take any time away from time I would normally spend at home or doing something with the family. My long run on weekends would be completed before anybody got up, and if I did a long ride on the weekend, I started by 4am and would be home by 10am at the very latest.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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57 minutes ago, Peter said:

15 hours a week is more like 19 hours a week anyway.

The time you spend getting to pools and running tracks and bike sessions or a strength session.  You have to include that time.

The sport is a massive time suck if you are really putting in big hours.

Even the time after a bike run session of showers and food and stretching etc...  Forget the time actually running or cycling.

I agree and also disagree

ypu have to be very organised and think outside the square 

you don’t have to ride or run in a group 

train by yourself , so. No time wasted waiting around for everyone to show up 

run reps up and down your street or run loops around the block (or get a treadmill)

Get on the trainer , the trainer is the best bang for your cycling buck and is a massive time saver , also won’t get killed riding on the trainer 

most can’t do much about getting to and from the pool but look outside the square and ride or run to and from the pool and again don’t train in a group that stands at the end and talks foralf the session

get to pool , get in swim 4K get out , get on with the rest of the day 

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I train lots but there isn’t any wasted time 

today I swam 8k (of course not everyone has a pool 5m from the back door)

3hrs Ride on trainer  , then 24k run (12X2k reps) and didn’t go any further than 1k from home 

started at 4-am and was finished and walking the dogs by just after 11-am 

also in that time I hung up two loads of washing , another advantage to traing at home is getting domestics done as you train 

 

i also never train train after work , or PM sessions , the second session of the day is the one that pits most strain on “family life” 

i just get done what I need to get done for the day in one session , whether that’s 90 mins or 10hrs . Once it’s done it’s done 

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qualifying fir Kona (in oz) is easier now than it was 15 years ago and even more so than it was 5-7 years ago with more races , more spots , less competition and far less “cream” in the competitive age groups

I'm surprised someone hasn't pulled you up on this statement - how many times have you qualified ? and are you going to qualify at Port this year ? 😏

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