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Peter

Is Running off bike faster than fresh

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Yesterday I did Parkrun and pushed it the whole way.  All off road and it is a bit lumpy. Anyway I average 4:55k pace. I was hurting and felt on the limit for the last 4k.  First 1k is a bit messy with people.

Today I did a triathlon and was able to run at 4:40K pace just cruising. I wasn't even pushing it.  Could have gone faster but I couldn't catch 3rd place and 5th place wasn't in sight.

Can a solid bike help with your run, rather than just starting a run fresh over a 5k?

NOTE: I'm going to do another park run next week that's 80% on cement and just an uphill for about 2minutes on dirt.

 

Edited by Peter

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It probably depends what you train - do you train to run after the bike, on tired legs, or train for a running race? For me definitely not faster off the bije.  There is about 4 mins difference over a 10km race.  

I was asking AA7 about her run times a few months ago and she said that her fastest 10k was off the bike - but I don't think she has done many 10k running races..

Mr BogFrog feels better running off the bike and thinks the times would be comparable...  

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My fastest 5k is off the bike - only thing I can put it down to is not warming up properly ahead of a run race due to the fear of somehow getting tired.  And it's not a small difference - 17.30 in a tri vs 18.30 just running.  Going to the longer distances there's a bit of a reversal - 21k running 1.24 vs 1.27 off a hard bike.

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My fastest running allways come off the bike either in training or races 

probably comes down to me being an endurance machine more than a bolt type of runner  and being proper fueled during a tri

having said that I’ve never done a running race under 21 k only ever done 1 Olympic distance race and a handful of sprint races , verses 32 IM  ranging from 9hr20 to 10hr35  , run times of 3hr07 to 3hr-42

vers

best times 

5k tri 17 mins

10 k  tri  33 mins but not sure distance was correct 

21k 1hr 20  (only done two half Mara the other was 1-21 ) verses 1hr19 in a tri 

42k tri 3-07 versus only stand alone marathon of 2-42 

84k (Ultraman 7-47)

100k 7hr 50

cant remember my 100 mile and 200k PB as those days are a little blurry 

i dont reckon I ever ran to my full potential in IM as I was allways wanting and should have got many sub 3hrs  , but never did and that’s never gunna happen now 

3-30 is the aim these days 

 

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The only thing I could compare would be the one time I did just the run leg of a sprint as opposed to the whole race. Difficult to actually compare times due to transition times being included but it felt HORRIBLE, HR was well up in the 190s and pace wasn't where I would expect it to be.

I've never run a standalone 10K but I have run Olympic 10ks about 10s/km faster than I did City2Surf (14k, with hills).

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I’ve always wondered this! My 10k pb is off the bike in an Olympic, and my 5km would be too except for the one race I got dragged to a monster pb by a speedy old fella helping out a youngen. I think my half mara pb is off the bike too but that’s prob just because I haven’t done a stand alone in a few years and mostly been in half distance tri’s.. 

 

i feel being so warmed up helps, as long as you don’t cook yourself on the bike and for some reason I pace a lot better off the bike. No idea why! 

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My 10km PB was nearly 3 minutes faster fresh than off the bike. If you are racing seriously, I can't imagine how you would be able to run faster after a hard ride. Saying that, I am faster after an easy ride, as a warm-up.

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How long was your warm up for Park run? For me, its all about the warm up. You should be cooked after a 5km - any way you look at it. But going cold to full gas is never pleasant (or fast). Next 5km - try a 6-7km easy warm up and see if a difference. 

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2 hours ago, BogFrog said:

It probably depends what you train - do you train to run after the bike, on tired legs, or train for a running race? For me definitely not faster off the bije.  There is about 4 mins difference over a 10km race.  

I was asking AA7 about her run times a few months ago and she said that her fastest 10k was off the bike - but I don't think she has done many 10k running races..

Mr BogFrog feels better running off the bike and thinks the times would be comparable...  

Yep, always run better off the bike.

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32 minutes ago, Bosco said:

How long was your warm up for Park run? For me, its all about the warm up. You should be cooked after a 5km - any way you look at it. But going cold to full gas is never pleasant (or fast). Next 5km - try a 6-7km easy warm up and see if a difference. 

An 800 metre walk from home.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

An 800 metre walk from home.

That's why you can't run a fast 500m. I found an easy 15km ride, followed by a bit of stretching and a short warm-up run with a couple of short bursts got me in best form for 5km. You have to be ready to run hard from the gun.

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Yep, my runs over all distances were quicker off the bike, including Kona being my fastest ever marathon.  I guess I just take a while to get warmed up...  :yes:.

As a relatively slow swimmer, and being a much better bike rider and runner, I think the extra motivation of continually catching and passing those in front of me may have helped a bit as well.  I enjoy doing triathlon & multisport events, and usually the more I enjoy them, the better the result.

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For a 5km race you probably want to warm up for another 5km. 

2-3km super easy to get the blood flowing then 10 x 100m builds with a jog back to where you started then jog to race start when finished. 

Theres no way your 5km off the bike is faster than a standalone 5km no matter how you look at it, you should be running way faster than you did your park run race. 

Also worth noting 5km runs are typically a lot more accurate than a 5km triathlon run. 

Edited by Rog
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My own 10km best time is off the bike in an OD race - I put it down to the warm up factor 🙄 

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Best 10k was 47min.  Best tri I think was 52.  Best 5k 22:59 (pouring rain, difficult track), best tri 24:something.  Best 21k 1:55 best tri 2:06.  Granted the half times were a few months apart on no half training and it was my first HIM done on no half training 4 months after my first tri (brw).      I tended to fit into the +10% column.

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26 minutes ago, dazmuzza said:

So many different variables to account for, so I don't think you could definitively say which is faster. 

I can't see how it could possibly be faster if you prepare for the 5km race properly. If you are actually racing the full triathlon, and not just the run portion, then you have spent some of your ammo before you put your running shoes on. 

It's like saying your 2nd 5km of a 10km race is faster than just doing a 5km race.

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My actual 5k pb is in the first half of a 10k race.  Pity about the second half of it!

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7 minutes ago, goughy said:

My actual 5k pb is in the first half of a 10k race.  Pity about the second half of it!

My "old age" PB for 10km was the first 10km of a 14km race, but I went out there that day to run a fast 10km (relatively speaking of course), and that's what I did.

I think I did the next 4km in 20 minutes.

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If you can run faster off the bike, then you are not warming up properly for your stand-alone, I would have thought 

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I think it demonstrates the importance of a good warmup. The other factor to consider is whether there is a variation in your cadence from straight run to running off the bike. Your cadence on the bike is probably > 90. Most probably your cadence on a straight run is 85 (170 steps per minute). The bike has set you up to run with a high cadence and your body will take a while to settle into its natural rhythm.

I've always had trouble in the first 1-2km of a sprint tri race going out to fast. Very easy to run 30 seconds faster than you should be, its in the next 2 km that it then comes back and bites you.

Edited by Evil Guru

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Think I’m missing something ,if your fresh and ready your stand alone 5k and 10k should be quicker no questions in my opinion.

one of my sporting regrets is not doing a 10k and 5k track race in my prime and there is no way I would run times like that of the bike but I guess everyone is different.

i just think if your on the rivet racing in a tri you are going to be slower come the run .

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I'll do a warmup this weekend and see how I go and report back.

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7 minutes ago, Peter said:

I'll do a warmup this weekend and see how I go and report back.

Do a proper one.

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3 hours ago, Peter said:

I'll do a warmup this weekend and see how I go and report back.

Do a decent sample size. Not just one race. Maybe alternate 5 of each over the year.

I suspect there's a lot of comments here from people claiming parity between run times and tri times when they haven't raced both scenarios that often, let alone off similar preparations and with similar commitment to the end results.

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Exactly. AP last ran a stand-alone 10km about 30 years ago. 

It’s non-sense, done properly you WILL be faster running than bike-running. 

At a guess you if you’re running 4:40s off the bike you will run around 4:30-32 standalone, maybe even a bit faster. 

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I often "feel good" getting off the bike and running as Im warm and loose, but if I have raced hard to that point that feeling soon wears off and the accumulated fatigue sets in. 

My run PB's are (were) all standalone barring some very dodgily measured tri courses. 

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For me, my best runs have been off the bike

- but I have no explosive speed (so I drop pretty fast at the start of a running event, then start picking up after a k or so)

- and tend to run faster when there is something attainable - in the old days this was winning, now it is just not looking to pathetic (that's why I do Tris instead of athletics).

For comparison my City2Surf PB (one and only appearance - I live in Qld) was 52:22 (with a cold).

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On 09/04/2019 at 2:51 PM, Peter said:

I'll do a warmup this weekend and see how I go and report back.

How did it go?

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42 minutes ago, Bosco said:

How did it go?

Didn’t get there.  Wife ran long.  

Cant this sat either.  So the one after 

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38 minutes ago, Peter said:

Didn’t get there.  Wife ran long.  

Cant this sat either.  So the one after 

You don’t want it enough. Just excuses 

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2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

You don’t want it enough. Just excuses 

I achieving goals.  That’s the important think.  And I’m fresh when I finish. 

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

I achieving goals.  That’s the important think.  And I’m fresh when I finish. 

Yeah the time doesn't matter as long as you look good at the end 😏 

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1 hour ago, AP said:

Yeah the time doesn't matter as long as you look good at the end 😏 

I’ll probably come third. 

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On 07/04/2019 at 10:59 AM, Peter said:

Yesterday I did Parkrun and pushed it the whole way.  All off road and it is a bit lumpy. Anyway I average 4:55k pace. I was hurting and felt on the limit for the last 4k.  First 1k is a bit messy with people.

Today I did a triathlon and was able to run at 4:40K pace just cruising. I wasn't even pushing it.  Could have gone faster but I couldn't catch 3rd place and 5th place wasn't in sight.

Can a solid bike help with your run, rather than just starting a run fresh over a 5k?

NOTE: I'm going to do another park run next week that's 80% on cement and just an uphill for about 2minutes on dirt.

 

Park run with a warmup today.

 

4:39k pace average on the same course I did 4:55 a few weeks ago.

Warmup helped.

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

Park run with a warmup today.

 

4:39k pace average on the same course I did 4:55 a few weeks ago.

Warmup helped.

In the first 3-500 metres of every swim I do, I always think I'm going to tank the session because I feel so bad..then by 6-700 life is usually ok again

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9 minutes ago, Kiwinoz said:

I am concerned about a lot you and your understanding of basic physiology.

You mean Kipchoge won’t be knocking out a 40km bike time trial before his next crack at a sub 2 marathon???

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