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So in the wake of the Christchurch shooting all the media have been falling over themselves gushing how 'amazing', 'heroic', 'brave' etc etc Jacinda Ardern has been in quickly banning semi automatic weapons.

Ummmm has it only become apparent now that these weapons can be used for mass murder? 

What would have been truely brave and heroic would have been if she banned the weapons BEFORE the massacre.

Kinda like giving someone an award for putting in a smoke alarm after your house has burnt down....

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The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the next best time is today - chinese proverb

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14 minutes ago, trinube said:

The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the next best time is today - chinese proverb

Yeah that's great, but tell that to the 50 dead people...

It's great that they have banned the weapons but they should hardkey be heaped with praise, there should have been done hard questions about why she hadn't already done it.

Kind of like she is now asking some hard questions of the law enforcement and intelligence agencies for not being on top of the nutbag..

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2 hours ago, more said:

So in the wake of the Christchurch shooting all the media have been falling over themselves gushing how 'amazing', 'heroic', 'brave' etc etc Jacinda Ardern has been in quickly banning semi automatic weapons.

Ummmm has it only become apparent now that these weapons can be used for mass murder? 

What would have been truely brave and heroic would have been if she banned the weapons BEFORE the massacre.

Kinda like giving someone an award for putting in a smoke alarm after your house has burnt down....

I don't think you can blame her as she has only been in government for a short time. Maybe her predesserors might be more accountable. 

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I thought I heard or read somewhere that there have been 5 attempts to get stronger gun laws through their Parliament, but they've failed.

I guess it's a bit like Port Arthur here.  Not so much that after such an event things needed to be done.  But after such an event, try and stop changes being made at your own detriment!

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34 minutes ago, more said:

Yeah that's great, but tell that to the 50 dead people...

It's great that they have banned the weapons but they should hardkey be heaped with praise, there should have been done hard questions about why she hadn't already done it.

You must love the Americans...

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9 minutes ago, trinube said:

You must love the Americans...

They are dead set morons

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12 minutes ago, goughy said:

I thought I heard or read somewhere that there have been 5 attempts to get stronger gun laws through their Parliament, but they've failed.

From Wiki:

 In March 2010, the New Zealand police bid to reclassify certain types of civilian semi-automatic firearms as military-style semi-automatics was overturned by the High Court as a result of a legal challenge mounted by the New Zealand National Shooters Association (NSA) president Richard Lincoln.[5] However, since the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019, gun laws have become a major political issue, and Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced in a press conference on 21 March 2019 that legislation would be introduced to ban military style semi-automatic and assault rifles, and an amnesty and buyback of weapons would be set up.[6][7]

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Unfortunately, it's always hard to take things away from people. After a major tragedy such as this, there is a brief window of opportunity to act, before those affected groups will start to lobby for their self-interest. NZ has tried before and failed, and while I don't think she particularly solicits (or even cares) about the press support, if they are behind her on it, then more power to her.

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Perhaps the biggest lesson from all this is complacency.  If you are weaker (ie your gun laws are more lenient) then the terrorists will find you and exploit you.  Knowledge of everything is available to everyone and intelligence is not limited to the good guys.  As I understand it New Zealand was chosen as a target, at least in part, because it was going to be easy to a obtain weapons - serious weapons.

To contrast that, in Victoria, in order to obtain a firearm you need to:

  • Register for training and examination and wait until the next course is available ( 2 - 4 weeks)
  • Undertake the training by the SSAA and the Victoria police
  • Register for an exam on firearm safety with a mandatory minimum score to reached 
  • Sit an exam on firearm laws with a mandatory 100% score
  • Apply for a shooters licence - with a ton of serious documentary evidence as to your identification (notarized and verified bu a long term acquaintance)
  • Present a valid reason as to why you are applying and submit your application along with results from the two exams.
  • Wait around 1 month for your licence to be approved. (if it is approved)
  • Commence a firearm purchase process - only through a licenced firearm dealer.  More paperwork submitted to police for approval before you can take possession.
  • Wait a minimum of one month as a cooling off as well as a determination on whether the firearm you have chosen is appropriate for your licence type and reason for holding it.
  • Then and only then do you have a firearm, noting that all semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are prohibited including a myriad of other weapons and accessories (such as large magazines).
  • Any firearm hence purchased or sold MUST go through a licenced firearm dealer with appropriate paper work.  Ergo, Victoria police know where any particular firearm is and who has it, and exactly what else he or she has.
  • In addition, it is mandatory to have a safe for firearm storage that is physically attached to the floor or wall and it is condition of your licence that you are subject to an inspection at any time,

So a lot of time and energy if you want to gun in Victoria. Do I think it is excessive? No way - I think it goes a long way to weed out the nutters! :)

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1 hour ago, Pete said:

Perhaps the biggest lesson from all this is complacency.  If you are weaker (ie your gun laws are more lenient) then the terrorists will find you and exploit you.  Knowledge of everything is available to everyone and intelligence is not limited to the good guys.  As I understand it New Zealand was chosen as a target, at least in part, because it was going to be easy to a obtain weapons - serious weapons.

Yes, it's very easy to believe this would have happened here (mid north coast) if the guns laws weren't as tough.

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9 hours ago, more said:

So in the wake of the Christchurch shooting all the media have been falling over themselves gushing how 'amazing', 'heroic', 'brave' etc etc Jacinda Ardern has been in quickly banning semi automatic weapons.

Ummmm has it only become apparent now that these weapons can be used for mass murder? 

What would have been truely brave and heroic would have been if she banned the weapons BEFORE the massacre.

Kinda like giving someone an award for putting in a smoke alarm after your house has burnt down....

Why so keen to tear her down? I've heard it mentioned at least a dozen times in the paper and on the tv news that there's been several attempts to tighten NZ's gun laws over the last decade.

Actually the previous NZ government's Police Minister and current National Party Dept Leader Paula Bennett knocked back 13 recommendations from police and a bipartisan committee to tighten NZ gun laws, including restrictions on ownership of guns similar to those used in the recent killings. Perhaps you should be taking aim at her

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4 minutes ago, Mike Del said:

Why so keen to tear her down? I've heard it mentioned at least a dozen times in the paper and on the tv news that there's been several attempts to tighten NZ's gun laws over the last decade.

Actually the previous NZ government's Police Minister and current National Party Dept Leader Paula Bennett knocked back 13 recommendations from police and a bipartisan committee to tighten NZ gun laws, including restrictions on ownership of guns similar to those used in the recent killings. Perhaps you should be taking aim at her

I guess I'm a sceptic when it comes to politicians  and don't like to see them try to take credit things that they have failed in doing. All they ever seem to do is wait for a catastrophe to occur before they take steps.

If she had been trying previously to get the guns banned then I stand corrected and give her credit, otherwise..mehhhhh 

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She's only been the pm for about 18 months, and leader of her party for barely longer than that.

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8 minutes ago, goughy said:

She's only been the pm for about 18 months, and leader of her party for barely longer than that.

And? If it was never her policy to make a change at what point failing a massacre would it have been? Anyways...all moot points I guess....

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8 hours ago, Notsofast said:

Could you imagine any of our pollies making that stance though?

NSF

I reckon John Howard would if he was Prime Minister!

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3 hours ago, more said:

I guess I'm a sceptic when it comes to politicians  and don't like to see them try to take credit things that they have failed in doing. All they ever seem to do is wait for a catastrophe to occur before they take steps.

If she had been trying previously to get the guns banned then I stand corrected and give her credit, otherwise..mehhhhh 

Unfortunately that's often the way our goes and it is difficult to preempt these things...

Should GWB have tightened airport security etc before 9/11? Should rubbish bins have been removed from train stations prior to bombings?  Should bollards have been installed (or cars banned totally) before any of the pedestrian killing terror/melbourne drug go acts? Sure, semi assault rifles are more obvious but she's managed to do what Obama couldn't and he had more of these events...

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3 minutes ago, pieman said:

Unfortunately that's often the way our goes and it is difficult to preempt these things...

Should GWB have tightened airport security etc before 9/11? Should rubbish bins have been removed from train stations prior to bombings?  Should bollards have been installed (or cars banned totally) before any of the pedestrian killing terror/melbourne drug go acts? Sure, semi assault rifles are more obvious but she's managed to do what Obama couldn't and he had more of these events...

I think that is well said. 

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13 minutes ago, pieman said:

Unfortunately that's often the way our goes and it is difficult to preempt these things...

Should GWB have tightened airport security etc before 9/11? Should rubbish bins have been removed from train stations prior to bombings?  Should bollards have been installed (or cars banned totally) before any of the pedestrian killing terror/melbourne drug go acts? Sure, semi assault rifles are more obvious but she's managed to do what Obama couldn't and he had more of these events...

You are missing a key piece in your comparisons-there have been multiple mass shootings. It didn't come as any surprise. Port Arthur should have been enough, let alone the weekly carnage in America.

Unlike mass shootings of which there have been many, 9/11 had never occurred before, but afterwards security was increased around the world to prevent a re occurrence. That's the difference-the shooting in NZ was only a matter of time.

Bollards should have absolutely been installed-there had been numerous similar killings in Europe prior to Melbourne. Again another example of politicians waiting for disaster to act.

I wonder if they have bollards in NZ yet? Or will they wait for a copy cat carnage to act?

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5 hours ago, more said:

I guess I'm a sceptic when it comes to politicians  and don't like to see them try to take credit things that they have failed in doing. All they ever seem to do is wait for a catastrophe to occur before they take steps.

If she had been trying previously to get the guns banned then I stand corrected and give her credit, otherwise..mehhhhh 

John Howard was a reactionary failure then?

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1 minute ago, Parkside said:

John Howard was a reactionary failure then?

100%, off course he was, more guns in a Australia now then when he “banned” them.  His electorate had it right punting him from not just office, but parliament. 

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1 minute ago, Parkside said:

John Howard was a reactionary failure then?

Not sure what you mean by this? At the time I think the Port Arthur massacre was the largest of its type-it had never really been done before. But Howard acted. NZ and the rest of the world should have followed suite...

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Just now, Oompa Loompa said:

100%, off course he was, more guns in a Australia now then when he “banned” them.  His electorate had it right punting him from not just office, but parliament. 

Its the type of gun available though. Id have a lot of trouble killing as many people with my double barrel shotgun as I would with a semi auto assault rifle with 15 shot magazine..

Seems as always people are getting their left/right wing allegiances get in the way of critical thought..

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25 minutes ago, more said:

Its the type of gun available though. Id have a lot of trouble killing as many people with my double barrel shotgun as I would with a semi auto assault rifle with 15 shot magazine..

Seems as always people are getting their left/right wing allegiances get in the way of critical thought..

Just a fact mate, what he did at the time worked a little bit,  history has shown it to be a myth. It’s a subject close to my heart, my wife’s parents witnessed Martin Bryant  go ape shit at Port Arthur.

Some morons even pretend it didn’t happen. 

Edited by Oompa Loompa

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3 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

Just a fact mate, what he did at the time worked a little bit,  history has shown it to be a myth. It’s a subject close to my heart, my wife’s parents witnessed Martin Bryant  go ape shit at Port Arthur.

Some morons even pretend it didn’t happen. 

Fascinating life my in-laws, my mother in law walked home from school seeing all the Japanese POW’s hanging from poles at Cowra, my father in laws, father was murdered by the Japanese.... to think they go a on a holiday to see/ to witness women and children shot dead they shared a bus with.  

Edited by Oompa Loompa
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By your logic Howard was a joke, in power longer than Ardern before he did something and only reacted once a nutcase acted. We all rightly applaud Howard taking drastic action which was probably unpopular with coalition voters and which has become his legacy rightly lauded by those of all political persuasions.

So it will be with Ardern. NZ has a lower gun murder rate than australia. Despite having 51% more guns than Oz, they have 19% less gun murders per capita. They have no more of a gun problem than Australia. it took a nutjob Australian to ruin what they probably thought was a good thing and create the climate where semi-automatic weapons are outlawed.

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5 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

Fascinating life my in-laws, my mother in law walked home from school seeing all the Japanese POW’s hanging from poles at Cowra, my father in laws, father was murdered by the Japanese.... to think they go a on a holiday to see/ to witness women and children shot dead they shared a bus with.  

We were supposed to be in Tassie for our honeymoon. Sat in a cyclone at Noosa instead.

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17 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

Just a fact mate, what he did at the time worked a little bit,  history has shown it to be a myth. It’s a subject close to my heart, my wife’s parents witnessed Martin Bryant  go ape shit at Port Arthur.

Some morons even pretend it didn’t happen. 

How is it a myth?  I have a lot of experience with lots of types of guns and I tell you what, if I wanted to inflict maximum damage a semi automatic rifle would do a much much much better job that a bolt action rifle or a double barrel shotgun.

For my mind that's the biggest issue with semi autos-rapid fire and lots of it, people have no chance. With a double barrel shotgun gun you have to reload which at least gives a brave soul time to try to disarm you

17 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

 

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3 minutes ago, Parkside said:

By your logic Howard was a joke, in power longer than Ardern before he did something and only reacted once a nutcase acted. We all rightly applaud Howard taking drastic action which was probably unpopular with coalition voters and which has become his legacy rightly lauded by those of all political persuasions.

So it will be with Ardern. NZ has a lower gun murder rate than australia. Despite having 51% more guns than Oz, they have 19% less gun murders per capita. They have no more of a gun problem than Australia. it took a nutjob Australian to ruin what they probably thought was a good thing and create the climate where semi-automatic weapons are outlawed.

No. If Port Arthur had happened before yes he would have been a joke. But it was unique and a first if it's kind.

That's the key difference.

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10 minutes ago, more said:

How is it a myth?  I have a lot of experience with lots of types of guns and I tell you what, if I wanted to inflict maximum damage a semi automatic rifle would do a much much much better job that a bolt action rifle or a double barrel shotgun.

For my mind that's the biggest issue with semi autos-rapid fire and lots of it, people have no chance. With a double barrel shotgun gun you have to reload which at least gives a brave soul time to try to disarm you

Apols, the myth that Howard got rid of guns. 

No arguments from me a semi is going to do more damage then a shot gun. 

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14 minutes ago, more said:

No. If Port Arthur had happened before yes he would have been a joke. But it was unique and a first if it's kind.

That's the key difference.

Port arthur 1996?  14 killed in Aramoana NZ a few years before that... why didn't the Australian govt act then..?

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4 minutes ago, pieman said:

Port arthur 1996?  14 killed in Aramoana NZ a few years before that... why didn't the Australian govt act then..?

I don't know-what is the tipping point for action? 1 life, 13 lives in NZ, 35 lives (and 25 injured) in Australia?

But that just makes NZ look even worse for failing to act. 

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2 hours ago, more said:

No. If Port Arthur had happened before yes he would have been a joke. But it was unique and a first if it's kind.

That's the key difference.

Which bit of what Howard did was unique?

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4 hours ago, FatPom said:

Which bit of what Howard did was unique?

Urghhhhh...the large scale  massacre was-over 50 people were shot. It shocked everyone to the core and despite death threats Howard pushed ahead and banned the guns.

It was at this point the rest of the world could have benefited by following suite.

But I'm sure you or someone will come out and find another massacre somewhere prior blah blah blah.

The point is that the politicians let us down by failing to act. I don't care if you like Howard or not but the fact is he got the job done years ago in a much more hostile climate-NZ, Europe and America let their people down. How many people have been killed since Port Arthur in similar style shootings in the US, tons, we have just had one in NZ but not a single one since in Australia.

 

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30 minutes ago, more said:

Urghhhhh...the large scale  massacre was-over 50 people were shot. It shocked everyone to the core and despite death threats Howard pushed ahead and banned the guns.

It was at this point the rest of the world could have benefited by following suite.

But I'm sure you or someone will come out and find another massacre somewhere prior blah blah blah.

The point is that the politicians let us down by failing to act. I don't care if you like Howard or not but the fact is he got the job done years ago in a much more hostile climate-NZ, Europe and America let their people down. How many people have been killed since Port Arthur in similar style shootings in the US, tons, we have just had one in NZ but not a single one since in Australia.

 

Mate it was just a question.  Britain did it in 1988 after Hungerford but that didn't stop Dunblane :(

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14 minutes ago, FatPom said:

Mate it was just a question.  Britain did it in 1988 after Hungerford but that didn't stop Dunblane :(

yes but they forgot to ban handguns..oops. 

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8 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

100%, off course he was, more guns in a Australia now then when he “banned” them.  His electorate had it right punting him from not just office, but parliament. 

distorted lefty facts sorry. not semi automatic, not handguns, but single shot guns with very strict controls. you also forgot to mention how many times his electorate stood by him. and of course every leader has an expiry date and Howard was almost 12 years in office. 

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

distorted lefty facts sorry. not semi automatic, not handguns, but single shot guns with very strict controls. you also forgot to mention how many times his electorate stood by him. and of course every leader has an expiry date and Howard was almost 12 years in office. 

oh yeah, play the leftie card to suit the argument....lol.  

Yes, every leader does have an expiry date but the sad fact with Howard is every leader eventually loses Govt as they lose their way, Howards problem is the people got that fed up with him, they not just punted his Government, but they punted him from Parliament.   That is his legacy for time and memoriam, hated that much in the end, he lost his seat, it's just a fact, it cant be rewritten.

 

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1 minute ago, Oompa Loompa said:

oh yeah, play the leftie card to suit the argument....lol.  

Yes, every leader does have an expiry date but the sad fact with Howard is every leader eventually loses Govt as they lose their way, Howards problem is the people got that fed up with him, they not just punted his Government, but they punted him from Parliament.   That is his legacy for time and memoriam, hated that much in the end, he lost his seat, it's just a fact, it cant be rewritten.

 

That election the Liberal party did what they could to actually lose.   

That was clear. They did thinks and didn’t do other things to ensure they lost.  

They had been in power long enough and wanted out. 

its like this next election. Scott Morrison is NOT a leader.  They have him there to lose this next election on purpose. 

Look at the Vic government. Dan Andrews is doing a Stellar job and is a leader. He will be in power for the next w elections down here. 

 

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1 hour ago, Oompa Loompa said:

   That is his legacy for time and memoriam, hated that much in the end, he lost his seat, it's just a fact, it cant be rewritten.

 

and where is that written? on the "Get Up" site perhaps?     

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Geezus you guys need to take your blinkers off and look at the individual and not the 'team'. Both sides are crap. Look at the best candidate on the day regardless of which 'team' they are on. I don't know who to vote for in the next fed election-they are both morons.

Peter I can never forgive Dan for blowing $1 BILLION dollars of OUR money to provide absolutely nothing in return. He should have been sacked on the spot.

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4 minutes ago, more said:

Geezus you guys need to take your blinkers off and look at the individual and not the 'team'. Both sides are crap. Look at the best candidate on the day regardless of which 'team' they are on. I don't know who to vote for in the next fed election-they are both morons.

Peter I can never forgive Dan for blowing $1 BILLION dollars of OUR money to provide absolutely nothing in return. He should have been sacked on the spot.

nothing to do with the current crap leaders. I will be voting for the sex party. 

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2 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

That is his legacy for time and memoriam, hated that much in the end, he lost his seat, it's just a fact, it cant be rewritten.

 

58 minutes ago, Prince said:

and where is that written? on the "Get Up" site perhaps?     

Whilst I think he did a very commendable act in moving the gun laws through like he did, he really will be remembered as only our 2nd sitting Prime Minister to lose his seat in an election.

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2 hours ago, Prince said:

and where is that written? on the "Get Up" site perhaps?     

lol, no AEC, 2007 election results.  

Wouldn’t lose any sleep over it, Howard is writing convicted kiddie fiddlers references these days.  

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16 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

His electorate had it right punting him from not just office, but parliament. 

The guy can't win with you Oompa, he goes to the trouble of avoiding a bi-election just like ever other punted PM does and you can't even give him some dues for that.  Bonus points for giving us the laughable case of Maxine to replace him - Cue election night 2010 - "It's labor's fault for not giving me a safe enough seat"

You should give him even more credit for completely destroying the libs to the extent that labor can be the rabble they are today and the libs still can't get a clear majority.  Howard will be in a grave before the mess he left (other than the guns) is cleaned up

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7 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

 

he really will be remembered as only our 2nd sitting Prime Minister to lose his seat in an election.

nah..that'd just team red rhetoric. 

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30 minutes ago, Prince said:

nah..that'd just team red rhetoric. 

So it didn't happen?

Whilst I may vote labor sometimes, I certainly wouldn't call myself team red (team anti-potato-head maybe), but that's how I remember him, because it was just so ridiculous that he got beaten like he did, by who he did.

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22 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

100%, off course he was, more guns in a Australia now then when he “banned” them.  His electorate had it right punting him from not just office, but parliament. 

I think this was proven wrong . Maxine Mckew was seen to be a disaster and found out very quickly, hence john Alexander was quickly elected in a land slide. He gained the largest swing towards the Liberals since 1996.

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