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BarryBevan

Average hours IM training

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Though he could have summed it up by saying.... what you put in is what you get out of it!

Same with Weight loss........ input v output.........it is that simple!!!!

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1 hour ago, ironpo said:

 

as I’ve sad before anyone can finish an IM on NO training if they had a gun to the head or thier first born was held hostage 

if the Will and mind is there it will happen , dispite what Facebook and insta will tell you finishing an ironman is not that hard 

, IM is just what we do for a fun 

 

 

 

Same with Ultraman

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1 hour ago, BarryBevan said:

Think we went past how many hours do others do

So back on topic....

One  thing you didn't mention is what you do with those 16 hrs split between the 3 activities and what the content of each hour is?  For example, 5 hrs in the pool is a waste of time IMO if you're only doing 16hrs total.  For IM the swim is basically a quick dip before the serious stuff starts - 10 mins quicker on the swim is meaningless if you're walking 20k into the run.  Typically I'd peak around 18-19hrs, split 3 swim, 10 bike, 6 run.  At 16hrs I'd lose one of those swim hours - if I was doing OD or a 750/20/5 where the swim becomes a much higher % time wise of the race then definitely 3hrs and maybe even 4 hrs - anyone can run hard for 5k on little training, most for 10k so run becomes less important.

Even though you're not looking to KQ, what you are looking to achieve on those 16hrs is relevant - is it a certain time, a placing in your AG or being able to walk the next day?

I have Cairns coming up so currently at around 12-13hrs and will build to that 18-19.  Targeting around 10.30 so we'll how it goes - however 'A' races for the season are two off road 50k's so that's what my training will be mainly focused on.

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32 minutes ago, truck said:

have Cairns coming up so currently at around 12-13hrs and will build to that 18-19.  Targeting around 10.30 so we'll how it goes - however 'A' races for the season are two off road 50k's so that's what my training will be mainly focused on.

If you're run fit for a 50km off road - you're IM fit - it's a runner's race - you don't even need to be running fast as long as you're running 

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40 minutes ago, truck said:

So back on topic....

One  thing you didn't mention is what you do with those 16 hrs split between the 3 activities and what the content of each hour is?  For example, 5 hrs in the pool is a waste of time IMO if you're only doing 16hrs total.  For IM the swim is basically a quick dip before the serious stuff starts - 10 mins quicker on the swim is meaningless if you're walking 20k into the run.  Typically I'd peak around 18-19hrs, split 3 swim, 10 bike, 6 run.  At 16hrs I'd lose one of those swim hours - if I was doing OD or a 750/20/5 where the swim becomes a much higher % time wise of the race then definitely 3hrs and maybe even 4 hrs - anyone can run hard for 5k on little training, most for 10k so run becomes less important.

Even though you're not looking to KQ, what you are looking to achieve on those 16hrs is relevant - is it a certain time, a placing in your AG or being able to walk the next day?

I have Cairns coming up so currently at around 12-13hrs and will build to that 18-19.  Targeting around 10.30 so we'll how it goes - however 'A' races for the season are two off road 50k's so that's what my training will be mainly focused on.

You may underestimate the flow on effect of the swim.

It's commonly accepted that your bike effort/fitness impacts the run, why do so many dismiss the swim and it's associated impact simply because it's only 10% of a race?

If I were to run a half marathon and ran the first 2.1km in a manner that left me fatigued and tired it would have a detrimental effect on the rest of the half marathon. Applying the logic of a swim only being 10% so therefore not/less important would mean what I do in that first 2.1km of a half marathon doesn't really matter.

Now speaking from personal experience I would say the most important part of a half marathon being executed correctly is the first 2.1km or 10%.

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2 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

10 bike

5 run

3 swim

3 swims a week of an hour each should give most people 9-10k of swimming.

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2 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

10 bike

5 run

3 swim

Nice break down, A simple plan regardless of hours you have to train is about 50% bike 30%Run 20%swim (roughly)

Some examples

12 hours do 6 bike 4 run and 2 swim

14 hours do 6.5 bike 4.5  run 3 swim

That helps get you a balanced training load. Then add to that 80% low heart rate sets, 20% hard workouts and you will do well.

Edited by Gilliga

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1 hour ago, Gilliga said:

That helps get you a balanced training load. Then add to that 80% low heart rate sets, 20% hard workouts and you will do well.

So just clarifying, 80/20 is based on time and not distance? 

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3 hours ago, prizna said:

You may underestimate the flow on effect of the swim.

It's commonly accepted that your bike effort/fitness impacts the run, why do so many dismiss the swim and it's associated impact simply because it's only 10% of a race?

If I were to run a half marathon and ran the first 2.1km in a manner that left me fatigued and tired it would have a detrimental effect on the rest of the half marathon. Applying the logic of a swim only being 10% so therefore not/less important would mean what I do in that first 2.1km of a half marathon doesn't really matter.

Now speaking from personal experience I would say the most important part of a half marathon being executed correctly is the first 2.1km or 10%.

This. 

Swim fitness is bike fitness is run fitness. 

Pretty simple 

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48 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

This. 

Swim fitness is bike fitness is run fitness. 

Pretty simple 

I never paid much attention to swim fitness seeing all the old fat 120kg guys swimming endless laps in the pool...

Edited by more
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4 minutes ago, more said:

I never paid much attention to swim fitness seeing all the old fat 120kg guys swimming endless laps in the pool...

Neither do I 😳😳😳✌️

 

But solid strength based aerobic swimming is the bomb. Chuck a big pool bouy and some paddles on and bang out 400's. 

Tired arms not lungs 😉👌

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I think volume is less important than the actual quality of the individual sessions and program as a whole.

The sport is so uniquely personal in regards to what athletes can manage and what works best for the individual, but when I was self-coached my belief was that more hours would inevitably lead to me getting faster.

It wasn’t until a got a coach that I realised how poorly I was training when I was writing my own programs. I was doing solid volume and going deep in a lot of my sessions, but it was all so unspecific and lacking in its overall strategic structure (there was none).

My goal was always to KQ when I started this sport, and when I got a coach on board my volume dropped pretty significantly for my next IM build and I had a huge breakthrough race, and then in my next IM I KQ’d with a bit more volume than my first race with my coach.

If you’re self-coached (which I assume you are) and looking to go faster (which I think is the reason for your original question), be wary of just thinking the answer lies in more volume. Quality of session and program will, in my mind, unlock far more of your athletic potential.

My coach did a bit of a q & a with me after I KQ’d on the differences between being self-coached and coached and put it up on his website. I won’t just put the link here at the risk of seeming like I’m trying to drum up business for him, but PM me if you’re interested and I’ll flick you the link. There might be a few insights in there that help you on your way.

 

Edit to add:

Just went back over your OP and saw saw your original question. In my first race with my coach I averaged less than 14 hours per week and went 9.31 (and took RBRs scalp) in Port Mac IM, and then IM Cairns last year we pushed it up a bit and I averaged a bit over 16 hours per week and went 9.07. I’m not a consistent trainer at all outside of IM builds - in the 6 months before my 16 week Cairns build I only surfed to stay in shape and didn’t do any swim, bike or run. Your consistent, mostly year-round 16 hour weeks of training are very impressive in my mind.

Edited by Hoffy86
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48 minutes ago, more said:

I never paid much attention to swim fitness seeing all the old fat 120kg guys swimming endless laps in the pool...

You have arden pool near you. It’s a great outdoor pool.  I’d be going there.  

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36 minutes ago, Peter said:

You have arden pool near you. It’s a great outdoor pool.  I’d be going there.  

Yeah it's only open during summer though, the Kensington one might be the go even though the water quality is often HIGHLY questionable...pea soup...

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7 hours ago, AP said:

If you're run fit for a 50km off road - you're IM fit - it's a runner's race - you don't even need to be running fast as long as you're running 

Previous results would suggest it’s a cyclist race 

E1DF68F0-C39C-4B42-84DE-E9A146D99753.png

 

BDBD62FD-BCA7-4843-9A81-ADD79BCC821F.png

83673B82-72EC-4F45-B76D-5EF805E831E5.png

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2 hours ago, Hoffy86 said:

I think volume is less important than the actual quality of the individual sessions and program as a whole.

The sport is so uniquely personal in regards to what athletes can manage and what works best for the individual, but when I was self-coached my belief was that more hours would inevitably lead to me getting faster.

It wasn’t until a got a coach that I realised how poorly I was training when I was writing my own programs. I was doing solid volume and going deep in a lot of my sessions, but it was all so unspecific and lacking in its overall strategic structure (there was none).

My goal was always to KQ when I started this sport, and when I got a coach on board my volume dropped pretty significantly for my next IM build and I had a huge breakthrough race, and then in my next IM I KQ’d with a bit more volume than my first race with my coach.

If you’re self-coached (which I assume you are) and looking to go faster (which I think is the reason for your original question), be wary of just thinking the answer lies in more volume. Quality of session and program will, in my mind, unlock far more of your athletic potential.

My coach did a bit of a q & a with me after I KQ’d on the differences between being self-coached and coached and put it up on his website. I won’t just put the link here at the risk of seeming like I’m trying to drum up business for him, but PM me if you’re interested and I’ll flick you the link. There might be a few insights in there that help you on your way.

 

Edit to add:

Just went back over your OP and saw saw your original question. In my first race with my coach I averaged less than 14 hours per week and went 9.31 (and took RBRs scalp) in Port Mac IM, and then IM Cairns last year we pushed it up a bit and I averaged a bit over 16 hours per week and went 9.07. I’m not a consistent trainer at all outside of IM builds - in the 6 months before my 16 week Cairns build I only surfed to stay in shape and didn’t do any swim, bike or run. Your consistent, mostly year-round 16 hour weeks of training are very impressive in my mind.

Its been good, though I'm tired now. I just want to have a good day and do the best I can with what I have.

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4 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

Neither do I 😳😳😳✌️

 

But solid strength based aerobic swimming is the bomb. Chuck a big pool bouy and some paddles on and bang out 400's. 

Tired arms not lungs 😉👌

I was half being serious half taking the piss. I really need to make time to do regular swims somehow. Now that i do school droppoffs in the morn its getting harder and harder, might just have to lock out an hour during lunch each day😉💪

 

Edited by more

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On 22/03/2019 at 8:25 AM, Bored@work said:

Same with Ultraman

Agree , if you do the training (again it doesn’t need to be massive hours to finish ) and your in the right headspace  Ultraman isn’t hard either , same as above “racing  “it is a different story 

 

although the cut offs for day one and two are a little tight on no training 

IM cut off of 17hrs is very very very generous to anyone under 60 years old 

not sure how many folks could swim 10 k and ride  285k on no training in 12 hrs though 

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On 22/03/2019 at 7:48 AM, BarryBevan said:

Think we went past how many hours do others do

I think out of this thread you can (or should) take away that it doesn’t really matter what hrs others are doing in training 

you have people here posting KQ races in a time of at least an hr faster than your aim , but yet they did less hrs in the main build than what your “off season” hrs were 

At port there will be folks , that finish well behind you that would have trained more hours 

doesn’t mean jacksh@t 

just put in what you , want or can do (or are prepared to do without it hitting your family time) be happy with that and see how things go 

dont fret over it 😀

 

pretty sure i do more hrs than almost anyone in any race or event I show up too

A because I love it , and are probably genetically suited to this sh$t

b it’s our lifestyle

c I’ve built my life around being able to get my training in , eg work , equipment , training set up , geographical position 

d I’m pretty much able to do any event of any nature at any time on no notice or specific training 

e I love doing epic training days or things that other “normal “ folks don’t do just by myself or with mrs iP , like everesting on my fatbike or running the grand loop  just with a days notice 

Of those many races and or events of all different types , tris , cross tris , mtb, road runs , trail runs , skyruns , massive ultra runs and rides , cross country skiing, fatbike races in the snow, hiking up an amazing mountain  , etc etc  I’ve only finished first overall in 3 of them and that was only because nobody decent showed up 

 

im sure if I trained less , I’d be richer , but my life would be sooo much poorer 

 

Edited by ironpo
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1 minute ago, BarryBevan said:

Running out of puff this week 

All good mate , just stick to totally,easy endurance stuff for a few days 

wont do you any harm , you’ll be fine and fireing  come IMOZ 

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31 minutes ago, ironpo said:

All good mate , just stick to totally,easy endurance stuff for a few days 

wont do you any harm , you’ll be fine and fireing  come IMOZ 

Liked the reference to being richer. I have what people would call a good and well paying job. Yesterday writing another pointless decision brief at 6 PM, after a day tidying up bad decisions and other folks laziness, and missing out on my scheduled longer Friday swim, then rushing home into a one hour zwift session.

I felt poor. I'd love to earn half my wage and be happier (I know its my choice).

As for the training, been very happy even when tired at the end of a week that I can lift on back end of work outs. Another thing been doing is doing things I enjoy to get the work done.

Ride out to a bike race then ride home, rather than sit on the tri rig for 5 hours. There's no real magic in riding a TT bike and I can sit comfortably for 180 in aero even if I only rode once a year on race day.

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3 hours ago, ironpo said:

I think out of this thread you can (or should) take away that it doesn’t really matter what hrs others are doing in training 

you have people here posting KQ races in a time of at least an hr faster than your aim , but yet they did less hrs in the main build than what your “off season” hrs were 

At port there will be folks , that finish well behind you that would have trained more hours 

doesn’t mean jacksh@t 

just put in what you , want or can do (or are prepared to do without it hitting your family time) be happy with that and see how things go 

dont fret over it 😀

 

pretty sure i do more hrs than almost anyone in any race or event I show up too

A because I love it , and are probably genetically suited to this sh$t

b it’s our lifestyle

c I’ve built my life around being able to get my training in , eg work , equipment , training set up , geographical position 

d I’m pretty much able to do any event of any nature at any time on no notice or specific training 

e I love doing epic training days or things that other “normal “ folks don’t do just by myself or with mrs iP , like everesting on my fatbike or running the grand loop  just with a days notice 

Of those many races and or events of all different types , tris , cross tris , mtb, road runs , trail runs , skyruns , massive ultra runs and rides , cross country skiing, fatbike races in the snow, hiking up an amazing mountain  , etc etc  I’ve only finished first overall in 3 of them and that was only because nobody decent showed up 

 

im sure if I trained less , I’d be richer , but my life would be sooo much poorer 

 

And that's why I am a massive fan of yours 😎🤘✌️

So my type of thing 

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On 22/03/2019 at 10:25 AM, prizna said:

You may underestimate the flow on effect of the swim.

It's commonly accepted that your bike effort/fitness impacts the run, why do so many dismiss the swim and it's associated impact simply because it's only 10% of a race?

If I were to run a half marathon and ran the first 2.1km in a manner that left me fatigued and tired it would have a detrimental effect on the rest of the half marathon. Applying the logic of a swim only being 10% so therefore not/less important would mean what I do in that first 2.1km of a half marathon doesn't really matter.

Now speaking from personal experience I would say the most important part of a half marathon being executed correctly is the first 2.1km or 10%.

 It swimming is arms and running is legs. It uses your system differently, so it's not a direct comparison. 

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Disagree Turts. Main ‘operating’ system for the day of an Ironman is pretty much the same. When I am swimming well, that means I am swimming a lot. When I am swimming a lot, I am running well all else held. The aerobic gains swimming seem to compound for me running. 

**** in relative terms, swimming I am Eric the eel, running I am more like  Monkie!

Edited by Bosco

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13 minutes ago, Bosco said:

**** in relative terms, swimming I am Eric the eel, running I am more like  Monkie!

You do realise Eric the Eel has a 100m Freestyle PB of under 57 seconds.

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6 hours ago, ironpo said:

Agree , if you do the training (again it doesn’t need to be massive hours to finish ) and your in the right headspace  Ultraman isn’t hard either , same as above “racing  “it is a different story 

Only the top 3 to 5 are racing in ultraman the rest are just completing it

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18 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

You do realise Eric the Eel has a 100m Freestyle PB of under 57 seconds.

I love how people bag the guy out for being in the Olympics and being slow.  Yet he was faster than 98% of the world swimming people. 

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specificity, swimming more won't make us run better, but triathlon is a single sport not 3 individual sports. Science and models are not popular here but:

Person A is late onset swimmer, battles through 2 squads of 3000 metres per week, uses pull buoys and paddles and can knock out some decent 100's in the pool. Goes to IM swims 1:20 to 1:30 and is struggling at around 80 to 90 % effort if not more just to get through, they rack up maybe 130 TSS for the swim.

Steady 10 K a week or more cruises in around 60 minutes at maybe 60 TSS for effort.

The swim fit person now has around an hour more of aerobic effort and fuel in the tank for that marathon. When person A is walking in the last hour, second person is running at 5 minutes K and person A more likley bikes steady and smooth

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9 minutes ago, Peter said:

I love how people bag the guy out for being in the Olympics and being slow.  Yet he was faster than 98% of the world swimming people. 

Nah. He swam nearly 2 minutes at the olympics. His notoriety led to him getting more serious, and he brought his time down over a few years. What was amazing though is that he trained for the Olympics in a 12m pool, and the Games was the first time he got into a 50m pool. He ended up being his country's National coach.

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1 hour ago, Bosco said:

Disagree Turts. Main ‘operating’ system for the day of an Ironman is pretty much the same. When I am swimming well, that means I am swimming a lot. When I am swimming a lot, I am running well all else held. The aerobic gains swimming seem to compound for me running. !

Correct

tricathalon is one sport , you have to train that way , mostly it’s just useing your aerobic system ,the better the aerobic system operates the better (faster) you get to the finish line 

Do not train as a swimmer , then a rider then a runner 

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2 hours ago, Turts said:

 It swimming is arms and running is legs. It uses your system differently, so it's not a direct comparison. 

But it is a direct effect in triathlon

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32 minutes ago, prizna said:

But it is a direct effect in triathlon

yes,but a 1:20 swim is not the same physiologically as a 1:20 run, in terms of the impact on the next hours of the run.

 

More swim fit means you get out fresher and can takre full advantage of your bike and run fitness. 

But no amount of swimming will have you running 5min kays at the back end of an IM if you haven't trained your bike and run. 

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I agree.

 

My post which started our discussion though was in response to a post that was rather dismissive of the swim. Being swim fit will not reduce you from 5min km to 4:50 pace but being unfit for the swim can definitely slow from 5 to 5:10 (arbitrary numbers)

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2 hours ago, prizna said:

I agree.

 

My post which started our discussion though was in response to a post that was rather dismissive of the swim. Being swim fit will not reduce you from 5min km to 4:50 pace but being unfit for the swim can definitely slow from 5 to 5:10 (arbitrary numbers)

Yep

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On 23/03/2019 at 9:10 AM, BarryBevan said:

Liked the reference to being richer. I have what people would call a good and well paying job. Yesterday writing another pointless decision brief at 6 PM, after a day tidying up bad decisions and other folks laziness, and missing out on my scheduled longer Friday swim, then rushing home into a one hour zwift session.

I felt poor. I'd love to earn half my wage and be happier (I know its my choice).

As for the training, been very happy even when tired at the end of a week that I can lift on back end of work outs. Another thing been doing is doing things I enjoy to get the work done.

Ride out to a bike race then ride home, rather than sit on the tri rig for 5 hours. There's no real magic in riding a TT bike and I can sit comfortably for 180 in aero even if I only rode once a year on race day.

Wealth is all relative. And chances are that relative to this guy most on here aren’t rich:

 

7C15C3F1-28A8-4455-A72F-AC0489BA13AA.png

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On ‎22‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 2:13 PM, xblane said:

So just clarifying, 80/20 is based on time and not distance? 

Yes just generally 80% of you time or sessions endurance/zone 1 and 20% of the sessions should be hard effort type sessions. For example if you had 3 bike sessions your 80% would be 2 of those sessions: a 5 hour endurance base ride a 1 hour recovery ride then you 20% hard session would be a 2 hour ride with 4 x 12 min at FTP on 10 min recovery.  Not many people actually push FTP hard sessions, this would be a really hard workout. 

 

You would find most people would not train this way and more likely do 3 Grey Zone sessions like a 1 hour bunchy and 2 hour bunch and a 5 hour bunchy, all in the same grey zone leaving them fatigued pretty bad and not really developing anything. This type of training will get you fit in the short term but you will plateau pretty quick.

 

As the race get closer however, there is still the need for some longer effort sessions and the 80/20 doesn't apply to every single week of an IM build, but to a lot of it.

Edited by Gilliga
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1 hour ago, Gilliga said:

You would find most people would not train this way and more likely do 3 Grey Zone sessions like a 1 hour bunchy and 2 hour bunch and a 5 hour bunchy, all in the same grey zone leaving them fatigued pretty bad and not really developing anything. This type of training will get you fit in the short term but you will plateau pretty quick.

So true! It's rare for a bunch to ride easy on an easy ride.

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