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Peter

Is drafting cheating or other?

Is drafting cheating  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. Is drafting cheating?

    • Drafting is cheating
      33
    • Drafting is a rule violation
      10
    • Rules are made to be broken
      3


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If the TOs are doing their job well, competitors should have significant uncertainty about whether they're in the crosshairs or not. They should have no uncertainty about whether the TO will pull the trigger. Rigorous enforcement eventually leads to fewer infractions (observed or not) and fewer penalties. Given the costs involved, that's about the best you can do.

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1 hour ago, nealo said:

The ref is there watching everything and everyone. sometimes they make mistake but that's life.

How many TO's are watching 1400 competitors over 180km? 90km?

The system isn't fair to everyone.

I can’t beli I’m agreeing with you guys from the shire.   

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On 09/01/2019 at 4:58 PM, Peter said:

 

What should happen is you just video it.  Report it at some point to the race ref.  They write it on a white board at some point on the run where you have to run an extra 2km loop. Fail to run the extra 2k  dq  

The only thing a TO should say to cyclist is break it up.  Check the white board when running. 

 

Same same but different. 

 

Race briefing - TO will simply call your number and say your knicked and they will ride away,  if it’s a group, they will just call the group as “all of you, you’re knicked” there is no discussion at all, you are merely being told so you know where it happened and if you are unaware it happened, tough love my friends, that’s why you check the board. The board is the communication you were knocked, so don’t worry if you didn’t hear it.   It’s totally up to you to check the board before you run and enter the pig pen but if you don’t enter, you will be DQ’d.

 

Then TO goes up on course and goes “423, your  Knicked” or “all of you, your knicked” if it’s more then one. That’s it, no repeat, no discussion, they just say that and move away, a few seconds and done. Immeadiate radio/ text/ phone/ pigeon/ smoke signal / whatever back to the pig pen.  Still not fair for every competitor as they can’t be everywhere but certainly better then now and takes out confrontation and time wasting, which then enables the TO to knick more people. 

 

im not a fan of running extra so would just like to see a time thing and with whatever time penalty it is say, say 5 mins sprint/ 10 mins Olympic or whatever the PC brigade call that now, 20 long course, 30 Ironman and wait for it.... plus 2 minutes to all penalties below long course and 3 minutes for long course and IM so there are no arguments about going to the toilet or eating.  

We know, as a cheat, you will also want to cheat in the pig pen, so we have built in two or three minutes to every penalty to enable that and avoid confrontation with officials. And it is a bit farked up now that if you need to go to the toilet, the penalty has to start again and fully appreciate you can’t adjudicate on who is going to wet their pants vs putting it on, so just build it in.   Best penalty box story I ever heard was guy getting DQ’d in the box for urinating and whilst he is arguing with everyone, bloke on the other side of the box takes the opportunity to do the same thing and nobody notices, all to busy with the euro blowing up deluxe.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Bosco said:

Draft legal it is......

That’s how the sport was originally. It is fascinating, you have a sport that enforces a rule system that is not fair for everyone as it is impossible to do so and let’s you draft in parts of the race no questions asked, but not others (swim v bike). Then designs a system that generates argument and negativity and constant tweets it without ever fixing it leaving all the unfairness, argument and negativity that occur in the sport there. 

 

Could remove it all and have a better product with less complaints.  Imagine when the pack goes by on the bike, people just look rather then look all those cheaters, where are the TO’s or worse, look all the cheaters, why is that TO trying to break it up and not just pinging them.

The sport simply cannot win on drafting and honest athletes walk away from the sport because the sport can’t fix it.  

So full old school, draft legal and do away with the issue altogether. Remove the “why” as opposed to dealing with the what over and over again and wondering why it keeps happening.

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3 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

So full old school, draft legal and do away with the issue altogether. Remove the “why” as opposed to dealing with the what over and over again and wondering why it keeps happening.

You must be talking REAL old school, because I did one of the first half dozen races in Qld, and there was a no-drafting rule.

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On ‎8‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 7:01 AM, BarryBevan said:

the 5 and 7 were good. 12 metres makes it hard for people to complete passes leading to all sorts of problems

12 metres and 2400 competitors in Kona = a 28Km conga line. Very difficult to not at some port draft. It is the people who intentionally do it that are the cheats.

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22 hours ago, Bosco said:

Draft legal it is......

I would never do a draft legal race....... it defeats the purpose of racing.

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35 minutes ago, IronmanFoz said:

I would never do a draft legal race....... it defeats the purpose of racing.

I've done a couple of Draft Legal races and loved them. Adds more tactics to the race. And age groupers are never going to exit the water in one big group.

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1 hour ago, Rob said:

I've done a couple of Draft Legal races and loved them. Adds more tactics to the race. And age groupers are never going to exit the water in one big group.

I agree, but it defeats the purpose of AG categories. A 60yr that swims well & is normally overtaken on the ride by the rest of his AG may be able to sit a pack of better cyclists from another AG and stay away from all his AG.

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So be it I reckon.  If people undervalue the mportance of swimming thems the breaks.

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14 minutes ago, Merv said:

So be it I reckon.  If people undervalue the mportance of swimming thems the breaks.

OK, the good swimmer who normally stays away, but the rest of his AG grab on to the pack of 40yr olds that started behind them and rode past 10km/hr faster than the old farts normally go.

If it's draft legal, then the AG's really should only be allowed to draft with their own AG, but there's no chance they could ever enforce that.

It's the same in crit racing. One grade isn't allowed to jump on the other grade's pack.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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The tri-industry is not going draft legal, look at all the investment into tri bikes and aero. The rules are based on discrete values but the reality is it is a continuously varying dynamic.

But its the best we have. What we need are more people willing to be TO, hopefully people who have raced a lot.

The people who cheat, that is intentionally sit on a wheel and work in packs will do it anyway, they don't care about their impact (remember they are all BOP and MOP anyway as the FOP people are all awesome 😀)

Good TO who engage with athletes, talk and coach people out of making mistakes and early on giving direction to those pushing the limits to drop back. Early on its messy, once they are out in the open ping away.

One of the biggest issues with drafting is people simply unwilling to understand that the rule works when you drop back when passed. Do that and 90% of the problems go away.

If we went back to the 7 metre rule we would have less problems with people going for a pass and failing which is another issue.

Blocking, need to get onto that hard as blockers stop the pass and drop back dynamic. Its a dynamic thing so just because you drop back one bike does not mean you have to keep dropping.

Dropping in,  its your problem, drop back or don't get passed

 

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I was listening to a bob Babbitt interview and the guy he was talking too said they have over 300 races across the country and no longer deal with tri usat. 

They can get a better deal and use their own rules without them. 

This is what I think could happen here. 

The bigger guys will jump and if they do the sport is stuffed from an admin level. 

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You'll find the 'bigger guys' from here already dictate their own rules, Ironman tells triathlon how it is going to be and some of the other RDs try to push the envelope as far as they can.  The various tri bodies already bend mostly to do what they want.

The issue is going to be when the safety of the competitor comes after the sponsors, had one case where a RD was vehemently trying to overturn a no wetsuit ruling on a 26 degree reading as it would upset the wetsuit sponsor he had on board.  The bodies are becoming less relevant every season at every level of the sport so you can expect to see more of this happen

God help us all if a zipper company ever sponsors the run leg in Qld

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18 hours ago, Peter said:

I was listening to a bob Babbitt interview and the guy he was talking too said they have over 300 races across the country and no longer deal with tri usat. 

They can get a better deal and use their own rules without them. 

This is what I think could happen here. 

The bigger guys will jump and if they do the sport is stuffed from an admin level. 

We already seen that at least once very publicly with the obsence one day licences announce a few back that magically reduced significantly by the time they were intruduced. 

If I was IM, oe even an Emo, I'd be setting up my own membership model now and just make more money so I could improve my product even further.  Plenty of running races, you can opt to pay an extra few dollars for insurance, coastal classic was one and thats with very small fields compared to the bigger tris like huski and ironman.

As an aside, has me stuffed how compulsory membership and one day licences back to TA is not third line forcing under trade practices.  Someone get a lawyer on here.  As it isn't, one can only assume that is because you can hold a triathlon outside the scope of TA so stuffed if I know why IM and Emo and that ilk just dont set up their own system. Christ, if i was IM or Emo I'd be charging TA and the States for using my property as a state or national title - without them, they dont have any, just pick a year with no world champs on in Australia and start the process.  That stuff doesn't really matter to most who race anyway, maybe less 10% of the field and in an overseas year, you just send a letter if thats your thing and say I want selection.

 

 

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Saw some of the most blatant drafting today, made me so mad that I approached the guy after the race to call him out on it. He jumped on my wheel as I went past him, super close. I looked back and gave him a yell after he'd been there for a while, didn't drop back. I slowed up a bit on purpose so he went around me. At the next turn, a few of the fast junior boys came past us and he jumped on that wheel and stayed within a couple of cm's for the whole next lap. 

Anyway, I memorised his number and knew the uniform. I walked past their club tent after the race.  I went up to him, started to give him a bit of a pat on the back, he thought I was giving him a friendly greeting or saying well done, so he started smiling at me. I just said 'that was some awful drafting out there today'. His response 'I didnt get caught'. What a douche. Probably a bit of a dick move by me, not my place to be calling people out, but his sole intention was to draft.

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39 minutes ago, AA7 said:

Saw some of the most blatant drafting today, made me so mad that I approached the guy after the race to call him out on it. He jumped on my wheel as I went past him, super close. I looked back and gave him a yell after he'd been there for a while, didn't drop back. I slowed up a bit on purpose so he went around me. At the next turn, a few of the fast junior boys came past us and he jumped on that wheel and stayed within a couple of cm's for the whole next lap. 

Anyway, I memorised his number and knew the uniform. I walked past their club tent after the race.  I went up to him, started to give him a bit of a pat on the back, he thought I was giving him a friendly greeting or saying well done, so he started smiling at me. I just said 'that was some awful drafting out there today'. His response 'I didnt get caught'. What a douche. Probably a bit of a dick move by me, not my place to be calling people out, but his sole intention was to draft.

What club? 

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You should have seen the Gatorade trim in Melbourne.  I was in the last wave of the 3rd race so had plenty of time to watch and Fark me they were 4 across and 40 in them. 

Other than injury from a crash I don’t think it matters in a joke triathlon. But it pisses me off in a 70.3 or Ironman. 

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1 hour ago, pieman said:

What club? 

Starfish 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

You should have seen the Gatorade trim in Melbourne.  I was in the last wave of the 3rd race so had plenty of time to watch and Fark me they were 4 across and 40 in them. 

Other than injury from a crash I don’t think it matters in a joke triathlon. But it pisses me off in a 70.3 or Ironman. 

You sure you were not seeing the Elites (who race draft legal). Even though they were racing Sprint Distance, they started in the waves just before the Age Group Olympic Distance.

I raced at St Kilda today and didn't see any blatant drafting

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What are you going to do about it. Drafting has been there for ever. Every time the huge packs late 90's at forster get brought up all the, it never happened in my day types, say I was there we never drafted.

People draft, some people don't. Make a choice live with it. This vigilante crap should stop though. Let the TO and ref do their job. Report to them if you want.

A lot of people claiming drafting don't quite get the rule or the dynamic nature of drafting. I have not had a drafting penalty, never wheel sucked, at times I have inadvertently drafted and could have been penalised.

A guy at Shepparton, thought I was drafting, yelled at me in the race and confronted me after the race. I thanked him for his feedback. He kept going, I asked him what he wanted, thanked him again and walked away.

 

 

 

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Edited by BarryBevan

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

I don’t think it matters in a joke triathlon. But it pisses me off in a 70.3 or Ironman. 

So the shorter ones are a joke? What makes a longer race less of a joke?

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On 09/01/2019 at 10:15 AM, Peter said:

.  I think it's cheating.

 

3 hours ago, Peter said:

You should have seen the Gatorade trim in Melbourne.  I was in the last wave of the 3rd race so had plenty of time to watch and Fark me they were 4 across and 40 in them. 

Other than injury from a crash I don’t think it matters in a joke triathlon. But it pisses me off in a 70.3 or Ironman. 

So which events are OK to cheat in and which are not?

Is Husky OK because it doesn't carry the IM brand?

Or it just the shorter races? Do what you like in a sprint, but you should race by the rules in a HIM? An Oly is each way bet?

Or is it decided by certain price points? If you get an early-bird entry you may be fortunate enough to be among the few individuals allowed to draft on race day?

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4 hours ago, Rob said:

You sure you were not seeing the Elites (who race draft legal). Even though they were racing Sprint Distance, they started in the waves just before the Age Group Olympic Distance.

I raced at St Kilda today and didn't see any blatant drafting

I can guarantee it wasn’t the elites. They race in matching tops. 

3 hours ago, Turts said:

So the shorter ones are a joke? What makes a longer race less of a joke?

Qualifying for a world champs. 

If you are racing for bragging rights over mates who cares. 

But for kona spots or world championships or Aussie championships I think it sucks. 

As I said today, I don’t care of people draft (clearly I didn’t given my bike average). 

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2 hours ago, Paul Every said:

 

So which events are OK to cheat in and which are not?

Is Husky OK because it doesn't carry the IM brand?

Or it just the shorter races? Do what you like in a sprint, but you should race by the rules in a HIM? An Oly is each way bet?

Or is it decided by certain price points? If you get an early-bird entry you may be fortunate enough to be among the few individuals allowed to draft on race day?

See above. Championship events. 

People drafting at kurnell or robina, are doing so at nothing events. 

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33 minutes ago, Peter said:

See above. Championship events. 

People drafting at kurnell or robina, are doing so at nothing events. 

So if it's OK for people to draft at entry level events and it becomes the culture of the sport, why wouldn't they draft when they move up to longer events which are raced pretty much under the same rules?

If the behaviour is accepted (whether by governing bodies, race organisers, TOs or fellow competitors) at the entry level and shorter events, we can't expect any better behaviour or controls as athletes move through the ranks.

Don't take up golf.

Edited by Paul Every

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31 minutes ago, Peter said:

Qualifying for a world champs.

But for kona spots or world championships or Aussie championships I think it sucks.

So it's OK for those not shooting for a Kona or a WC place?

Or if the race is designated the Aust Champs in 2019 it's not OK, but it's fine to draft in the same race in 2018 or 2020?

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Robinais almost impossible to race fair on.  Given some people take the piss but that course is way too small for the number of people they jam on it.

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I didn’t say it’s okay to draft. But getting upset at a race that means nothing about someone drafting that’s most likely not even in your age group is a waste of energy.

I had a paceline of 3 boys from Xavier college blast past me today.  

1. There is no prize money 

2. They clearly weren’t in my age group.

3. They started about 30 minutes in front of me 

4. They were only cheating themselves 

yet you on the other side of the country that wasn’t even in the race is upset about them drafting and people like them. 

Thats just a waste of energy by you. 

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37 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Robinais almost impossible to race fair on. 

Any of the QTS courses are really.

Tough for organisers when you are lucky to get a 5 km loop allowed for the bike tho.

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23 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

I had a paceline of 3 boys from Xavier college blast past me today.  

 

I've heard if they race legal they face expulsion

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36 minutes ago, Cottoneyes said:

I've heard if they race legal they face expulsion

Haha. Gold. 

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51 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Any of the QTS courses are really.

Tough for organisers when you are lucky to get a 5 km loop allowed for the bike tho.

And that my point. Why do people get upset about it?

especially if you aren’t even racing. 

 

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

See above. Championship events

People drafting at kurnell or robina, are doing so at nothing events. 

Really? Wasn't Kurnell the sprint state championships?

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If it’s not cheating why don’t people come out and say they do it? 

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4 hours ago, Peter said:

I didn’t say it’s okay to draft. But getting upset at a race that means nothing about someone drafting that’s most likely not even in your age group is a waste of energy.

I had a paceline of 3 boys from Xavier college blast past me today.  

1. There is no prize money 

2. They clearly weren’t in my age group.

3. They started about 30 minutes in front of me 

4. They were only cheating themselves 

yet you on the other side of the country that wasn’t even in the race is upset about them drafting and people like them. 

Thats just a waste of energy by you. 

You did say it "doesn't matter" in some races. Whether that equates with saying it's OK is just semantics.

Meanwhile, you seem to have failed to grasp or address the points I made.

And no, I'm not getting upset about the subject. You started this thread asking what people thought about issue, I simply told you.

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8 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

Robinais almost impossible to race fair on.  Given some people take the piss but that course is way too small for the number of people they jam on it.

I understand that, but this guy yesterday could not have been any closer to the wheel in front if he tried. 

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1 hour ago, AA7 said:

I understand that, but this guy yesterday could not have been any closer to the wheel in front if he tried. 

Yep hence the comment "some people take the piss"  there is a difference between just being in a bad spot and sucking a wheel 

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9 hours ago, Peter said:

I didn’t say it’s okay to draft. But getting upset at a race that means nothing about someone drafting that’s most likely not even in your age group is a waste of energy.

I had a paceline of 3 boys from Xavier college blast past me today.  

1. There is no prize money 

2. They clearly weren’t in my age group.

3. They started about 30 minutes in front of me 

4. They were only cheating themselves 

yet you on the other side of the country that wasn’t even in the race is upset about them drafting and people like them. 

Thats just a waste of energy by you. 

It's called social concience.  Like peer pressure to create a culture of not accepting stuff that's wrong. 

Say, for example, awareness and calling out change for famine, wars, gender equality overseas. Worth calling out? 

LGBTQI awareness and equality. Calling out sexual discrimination. 

Worth calling out?

Yes. And calling out small stuff is the sign of a good culture of good people with social conscience. 

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1 hour ago, RunBrettRun said:

Yep hence the comment "some people take the piss"  there is a difference between just being in a bad spot and sucking a wheel 

Agree totally with this but some people still lose their shit calling it drafting. And it’s not despite being way within the 12 metres. 

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Couple of thaughts on this subject

In 33 years in the sport and more than 350 races ive had two penalties.

One for blocking by riding too close to the middle of the road years ago and a drafting penalty in the most recent Busselton 70.3.

Both were correct calls made by the TOs.

We are dealing with a different culture and a different type of competitor than we were years ago when we were brought up on a no drafting scenario only.

As soon as the sport became an Olympic event and the itu went to drafting races the game changed.More than 80 percent of todays competitors came into the sport after the itu changes.

My thaughts are that todays competitor in the main don't have the same ties to the old days or the same thaughts about drafting that some of us do.

They watch TV they see the pros drafting,they see that we can now draft at the ITU age group world champs.....so its less of an issue and not really at the top of the list.

I can speak from WA terms and tell you that the average time span in triathlon for competitors today is 3 to 4 years this is a fact based on turn over and entry and membership statistics.New people don't have the same history that the bulk of the people on this forum have so they really don't care.

For me having recently raced my first draft legal series here in wa at the age of 60 was a learning experience.

Draft legal races don't destroy the sport they add to it.You need to develop your skills to suit a particular type of racing.Swim Faster and run better............The pros had to adept.

Id like to continue to do both and try and be competitive in both formats because theres room for both.

But ill tell you what as a former Race Director its interesting to see at the draft legal events the competitors after talking amongst themselves about who did the most turns and who worked..........takes all the pressure off RDs and TOs and gets rid of one of the bug bears of our sport.  

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On 12/01/2019 at 7:47 AM, Ex-Hasbeen said:

You must be talking REAL old school, because I did one of the first half dozen races in Qld, and there was a no-drafting rule.

If you're talking about that race at the Uni of Qld I thought it was the 2nd tri in Qld.

Question for you Ex , AP , Ronnie Ac & and any other old timers.......  So if we take it as drafting was banned from the start (though only 2 or 3 bike lengths) how many years do you recon it was before that rule was actually enforced? I can't remember anyone being penalised before about 1990 

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I sat on the back of Angus's moto in the 89 World Cup and we pinged a few. I can't recall cases earlier than that of people being actualled DQed or penalised, but I know in the late 80's the draft busters used to just come up and tell people to back off. 

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yeah, late 80's  they started pinging people., prior to that it was a free for all from anyone ive spoken too. just followed the american model.

 

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2 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

prior to that it was a free for all from anyone ive spoken too

I think prior to that, at least up here it was such a small community that anybody who did push it a bit far with drafting was called out by there peers. I remember a couple of young guys that changed their ways after a few races.

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6 hours ago, Triatx said:

 

But ill tell you what as a former Race Director its interesting to see at the draft legal events the competitors after talking amongst themselves about who did the most turns and who worked..........takes all the pressure off RDs and TOs and gets rid of one of the bug bears of our sport.  

and thats the thing, you wanna grow the sport, you get rid of things that bring the sport down.    goes from a whinge to mates self policing each other.   

people dont do confrontation so very few whingers about drafting actually do anything about it and worse still, many whingers about drafting just sit in packs rather then go of the front and have a crack. the athlete's in the races choose not to do anything about drafting when the officials do nothing.  As said, the to's can't be everywhere so the sport is unfair by nature. 

Can remember a famous sydney athlete riding quicker then crowie a few years back at a race - no DQ even though impossible. sport condones it, the athlete's condone it, so just do away with it or do as I said, and just ping people quickly and send them to the box and they check themselves if they were pinged or not.  Speed up the process and increase the amount that can get caught.

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3 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I think prior to that, at least up here it was such a small community that anybody who did push it a bit far with drafting was called out by there peers. I remember a couple of young guys that changed their ways after a few races.

probably so new too, people didnt really understand the sport.  i know the early races around here were just surf club guys putting them on, they were more worried about the race going ahead then anything in it..lol

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