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Peter

Is drafting cheating or other?

Is drafting cheating  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. Is drafting cheating?

    • Drafting is cheating
      33
    • Drafting is a rule violation
      10
    • Rules are made to be broken
      3


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9 hours ago, zed said:

 

Re drafting, the issue isn't with the athletes, the problem lies with RDs, TOs and the various triathlon organisations that fail to police it. It's a pretty simply problem to sort out. 

 

So if u dont get caught, speeding and drink driving are ok? 

I disagree. The rules are there. As speed limits and 0.05.  There isnt capacity in races to police everything, as there arent enough cops to prevent all the speeding and drink/drug driving. 

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14 hours ago, zed said:

It's not cheating. If we are going to classify it as cheating then what about pissing on the bike, saves a good 2 - 3 mins and it's a more serious offence, instant DQ. And we all do that including the pros.

Nope...  We don't all do that!!

Drafting with intent in a non-drafting race is cheating - simple as that.

I have no control over what other people do in a race, but in over 20 years of racing I've never been pinged for drafting.

I've also had some very happy massage practitioners working on my legs following many of the races I've done :winkiss:,

Expecting someone else to massage your legs after you've been peeing down them is just wrong :angry:.

 

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I find it unfathomable how many times this question has been asked!

It truely shows that there is an attitude of getting away with whatever you can is ok as long as not caught, out there.  

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Never drafted.

Never Pee'd myself. Had pains once waiting till T2, and stopped on Lap 2 of 3 the other. The first time I never went in just over 11hrs of moving.

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44 minutes ago, goughy said:

I find it unfathomable how many times this question has been asked!

It truely shows that there is an attitude of getting away with whatever you can is ok as long as not caught, out there.  

Nah, it shows how much entertainment we get out of the topic and how reliable it is for a bit or a rise. :wink3:

Edited by dazaau
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1 hour ago, goughy said:

 

It truely shows that there is an attitude of getting away with whatever you can is ok as long as not caught, out there.  

Nah I don't think it's acceptable, just don't regard it as cheating.

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2 hours ago, goughy said:

I find it unfathomable how many times this question has been asked!

It truely shows that there is an attitude of getting away with whatever you can is ok as long as not caught, out there.  

Okay,  The person I was dealing with is a paid employee of Triathlon Australia.

And I quote:

Quote

Drafting is technically not cheating,
It’s a rule violation

I don't agree.  I think it's cheating.

Edited by Peter
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9 minutes ago, Peter said:

Okay,  The person I was dealing with is a paid employee of Triathlon Australia.

And I quote:

I don't agree.  I think it's cheating.

Perspective is important.
You can unintentionally find yourself in the draft zone, ie climbing a hill and ending up inside 12m while not making a pass. Or having athletes in front sit up through an aid station closing the gap and you also not making a pass through there?  This would be classed as a rule violation in your eyes but as far as the race report goes be classed as drafting - is that cheating?
Intentionally sitting on a persons wheel to gain an advantage - Cheating, I doubt anyone will argue there - but dealt with in the same manner and recorded as the above two scenarios.

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I figured an intentional breaking of the rules was cheating.

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

Okay,  The person I was dealing with is a paid employee of Triathlon Australia.

And I quote:

I don't agree.  I think it's cheating.

Like I said earlier, she's wrong by every definition of cheating.

What chance have we got when the people running the sport are clueless?

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1 hour ago, RunBrettRun said:

Perspective is important.
You can unintentionally find yourself in the draft zone, ie climbing a hill and ending up inside 12m while not making a pass. Or having athletes in front sit up through an aid station closing the gap and you also not making a pass through there?  This would be classed as a rule violation in your eyes but as far as the race report goes be classed as drafting - is that cheating?
Intentionally sitting on a persons wheel to gain an advantage - Cheating, I doubt anyone will argue there - but dealt with in the same manner and recorded as the above two scenarios.

I agree with that.

Sitting 9/10m behind someone is very different.

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I agree it technically is a rule violation. 

But a rule violation with the intent of gaining an advantage is cheating. 

Rule Violation is the technical term. Cheating is the street interpretation of the outcome. 

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Drafting is only cheating if done deliberately and caught. 

It is a rule vilaotion if not  done intentionally or not caught. Is it cheating to be sitting up eating and drift into the draft zone because the person in front is dawdling at the  sound of Motorcycle.

It only gives and unfair advantage to people that don’t draft as opposed to all competitors. You would struggle to find any triathlete that has never drafted as opposed to never been caught.  

Triathlon has an issue in its rules cant be enforced equally to all competitors due to the inability of TO’s to be everywhere so drafting is not a fairness issue, the sport has unfairness built in to its design model. It’s great to blame the rule violator but in some races, by drafting they are simply leveling the playing field. 

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13 minutes ago, Oompa Loompa said:

Triathlon has an issue in its rules cant be enforced equally to all competitors due to the inability of TO’s to be everywhere so drafting is not a fairness issue, the sport has unfairness built in to its design model. It’s great to blame the rule violator but in some races, by drafting they are simply leveling the playing field. 

Wow.  Awesome point. 

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Is blocking cheating? I see plenty of people not riding to the side of the road. 

Is Abandonment cheating? I see plenty of stuff fall off bikes and the riders do not stop to pick it up.

In my view these are all violations just like drafting. The moral issue is if you are going out there to intentionally commit violations. If you do go with the intention to commit violations then expect to be called on it.   

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21 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

Is blocking cheating? I see plenty of people not riding to the side of the road. 

Is Abandonment cheating? I see plenty of stuff fall off bikes and the riders do not stop to pick it up.

In my view these are all violations just like drafting. The moral issue is if you are going out there to intentionally commit violations. If you do go with the intention to commit violations then expect to be called on it.   

Yeah well said. A top female AGer who can't ride for shit, got on the bike with her BF (rolling start) and sat on his wheel for 90km. I think she knocked 12 mins off her bike PB. That's cheating. Drifting into the draft zone for a few mins or being a few metres inside the 12m isn't cheating.

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I called a bloke out after Busso.  We were at the pub and I was about 12 drinks in...I can't remember most of what I said but Prizna got up and left pretty soon afterwards (it wasnt prizna it was one of his mates) so Im guessing it wasn't the greatest moment of my life.  

The way he spoke about riding he went out with a game plan to ride like he did, he was the only person in the first 30 odd people in the race that I saw pushing the boundary but his attitude afterward was all wrong.  That guy I would call a cheat because of the way he approached the race and his mentality behind riding and what he deems fair.  

 

Edit to add I passed him 15k into the run and he finished 4th in our age group so I wasn't mad at him for beating me just for the way he rode and his attitude.

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See, to me, if she didn't enter his draft zone at all, then it sounds like smart tactics.  What element of that was cheating as such?  If everyone's going together and not separate starts?

When I did Noosa, my mate drafted the whole swim off me (I even did backstroke at times), he sat legal behind me the whole ride and then we ran together.  What's the difference between her situation and me and my mate?

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8 minutes ago, goughy said:

See, to me, if she didn't enter his draft zone at all, then it sounds like smart tactics.  What element of that was cheating as such?  If everyone's going together and not separate starts?

When I did Noosa, my mate drafted the whole swim off me (I even did backstroke at times), he sat legal behind me the whole ride and then we ran together.  What's the difference between her situation and me and my mate?

You referring to my post? She sat mm from her bf's wheel for the entire ride. They'd obviously orchestrated this from the start. 

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Sorry, when you said "sat on his wheel", for some reason I must have just thought legally!  Cheated their arses off, drum them out of the sport!  

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I know one of the triathlons not Australia last year used undercover TOs. I really wish this would be trialled at Ironman here. I would sign up to do the TO course in a heart beat if I was allowed to do this at Ironman Oz. If people really see so many packs out there then let TO's ride parts of the course and sort the packs out. 

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27 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

I know one of the triathlons not Australia last year used undercover TOs. I really wish this would be trialled at Ironman here. I would sign up to do the TO course in a heart beat if I was allowed to do this at Ironman Oz. If people really see so many packs out there then let TO's ride parts of the course and sort the packs out. 

Surely this would be popular. You could use it for a training ride yourself and "give back" to the sport..

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1 hour ago, ashley_s said:

Is blocking cheating? I see plenty of people not riding to the side of the road.  Is Abandonment cheating? I see plenty of stuff fall off bikes and the riders do not stop to pick it up. In my view these are all violations just like drafting.   

These are nothing like drafting. The difference is these aren't done to gain a personal advantage as opposed to drafting where you are.

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1 hour ago, trinube said:

These are nothing like drafting. The difference is these aren't done to gain a personal advantage as opposed to drafting where you are.

How is abandonment not done to gain a personal advantage? You know something falls off your bike eg water bottle, spares etc you decide that it will be faster not to go back and get said items and just continue. 

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12 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

How is abandonment not done to gain a personal advantage? You know something falls off your bike eg water bottle, spares etc you decide that it will be faster not to go back and get said items and just continue. 

FFS, half the people that drop stuff don't even know they've done it - if you classify that the same as drafting you're deluded.

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2 hours ago, ashley_s said:

I know one of the triathlons not Australia last year used undercover TOs. I really wish this would be trialled at Ironman here. I would sign up to do the TO course in a heart beat if I was allowed to do this at Ironman Oz. If people really see so many packs out there then let TO's ride parts of the course and sort the packs out. 

I don’t see the point. 

The issue is

lack of TOs 

BUT the process of busting takes too long.  For example

you monitor to see if a pass is being made or not. 25 to 1 minute if it’s touch and go.

then your motor pilot rider needs to find a safe time to ride up next to the cyclist. Sometimes this could take 5 minutes. 

Then you get next to them and say

”rider 345.  Rider 345.  You have been caught drafting.  You will need to stop at the next bin.  Do you understand rider 345?”

wait for any banter. 0 to 2 minutes. 

So 8 minutes to bust 1 rider.  

What should happen is you just video it.  Report it at some point to the race ref.  They write it on a white board at some point on the run where you have to run an extra 2km loop. Fail to run the extra 2k  dq  

The only thing a TO should say to cyclist is break it up.  Check the white board when running. 

 

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FF

2 minutes ago, trinube said:

FFS, half the people that drop stuff don't even know they've done it - if you classify that the same as drafting you're deluded.

The half that do know that they dropped stuff, cheating or ruling violating? Both make a consensus decision to not obey by the rules, in my mind they are both rule violations. A significant amount of people at a triathlon, including Ironman, have no idea what the drafting rules are. Some do know the rules and violate, some don't know the rules and violate. It is the premeditation and the concuss decision making which is the issue . The actual act is a rule violation.     

Let me provide a little bit of context to my thinking with a personal example.

I started an Oly race last year accidentally in the wave prior to my age group. Despite completing  the course 2nd fastest I was DQ for not starting with my age group. Now me starting in the prior age group had no impact on my race or that of my competitors. However it is a rule violation and therefore a DQ resulted. My action was a rule violation, but I certainly don't believe I was cheating. However, if my intention was to start a wave earlier to reduce my time or otherwise obtain an advantage then yes I was cheating , but the actual physical action of starting in previous wave just like drafting is a rule violation.  

I really would not know of anyone who has completed an Ironman/70.3 that has not technically drafted.    

  

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14 minutes ago, Peter said:

I don’t see the point. 

The issue is

lack of TOs 

BUT the process of busting takes too long.  For example

you monitor to see if a pass is being made or not. 25 to 1 minute if it’s touch and go.

then your motor pilot rider needs to find a safe time to ride up next to the cyclist. Sometimes this could take 5 minutes. 

Then you get next to them and say

”rider 345.  Rider 345.  You have been caught drafting.  You will need to stop at the next bin.  Do you understand rider 345?”

wait for any banter. 0 to 2 minutes. 

So 8 minutes to bust 1 rider.  

What should happen is you just video it.  Report it at some point to the race ref.  They write it on a white board at some point on the run where you have to run an extra 2km loop. Fail to run the extra 2k  dq  

The only thing a TO should say to cyclist is break it up.  Check the white board when running. 

 

My point is that if you have riders on bikes you potentially open up options for those that may want to be a TO if this is an option. I would love nothing more than riding around the Ironman course waiting for a pack to go by in either direction. I keep hearing about how these monster packs swallow people up and they have no other option but to hang legally off the back or join in. If you have riders riding or even waiting on the side of the road when a large bunch has form you can ride along side and start to have them break up. What the aim is to try and get them to separate not necessarily start handing out cards. 

It is the large packs which seems to create the most angst. With these additional types of TOs i believe it would help to break these pack up. If you ever ride in these packs it is very common for riders to communicate when they hear/see a moto coming and then and only then break up. These packs only tend to try to sought themselves out when they hear a motor bike coming from 100+ meters away.    

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6 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

so drafting is not a fairness issue, the sport has unfairness built in to its design model. It’s great to blame the rule violator but in some races, by drafting they are simply leveling the playing field

Soooooo if everyone else is speeding then its OK?

Or everyone drives home from the party drunk and kills a cyclist (each), it's ok? 

 

I think not.  Just coz everyone else (in ur mind) is doing it, doesnt make it right or fair. 

No sport , event, or life activity is 100% policed, yet most obey the rules based on th simple chance of geting caught. Maybe triathlon attracts a higher level of rule breaking idiot in ur mind? 

 

Plus. Not everyone is doing it. 

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3 hours ago, ashley_s said:

The half that do know that they dropped stuff, cheating or ruling violating? Both make a consensus decision to not obey by the rules, in my mind they are both rule violations. A significant amount of people at a triathlon, including Ironman, have no idea what the drafting rules are. Some do know the rules and violate, some don't know the rules and violate. It is the premeditation and the concuss decision making which is the issue . The actual act is a rule violation. 

Seems I was right, you are deluded. Seriously, to compare someone accidentally dropping a gel and leaving to someone deliberately drafting is laughable. I'm happy for them to be DQ'd for not picking it up but drafting is outright cheating. No wonder we don't get clean races, some people can't even see they're cheating.

It pisses me that people think this is OK, what a pathetic display of 'sportsmanship'.

Edited by trinube
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2 hours ago, ashley_s said:

How is abandonment not done to gain a personal advantage? You know something falls off your bike eg water bottle, spares etc you decide that it will be faster not to go back and get said items and just continue. 

The way I think about it, not picking up stuff (if u know bout it) is not giving urself a disadvantage, as opposed to creating an advantage by drafting 

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21 minutes ago, trinube said:

Seems I was right, you are deluded. Seriously, to compare someone accidentally dropping a gel and leaving to someone deliberately drafting is laughable. I'm happy for them to be DQ'd for not picking it up but drafting is outright cheating. No wonder we don't get clean races, some people can't even see their cheating.

It pisses me that people think this is OK, what a pathetic display of 'sportsmanship'.

Maybe I am duluded but I believe there is a difference between someone intentionally drafting compared to someone unintentionally drafting. If all drafting is cheating as you say then every triathlete I have ever met I believe is a cheater. 

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1 hour ago, ashley_s said:

Maybe I am duluded but I believe there is a difference between someone intentionally drafting compared to someone unintentionally drafting. If all drafting is cheating as you say then every triathlete I have ever met I believe is a cheater. 

Nowhere have I mentioned 'unintentional drafting'. Riding into a draft zone to pass isn't drafting - it's simply the physics of passing which is allowable in the rules and not a violation of anything.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible - you folks supporting cheating would be the first ones to bitch and moan if someone cheated you out of a Kona spot.

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7 minutes ago, trinube said:

Nowhere have I mentioned 'unintentional drafting'. Riding into a draft zone to pass isn't drafting - it's simply the physics of passing which is allowable in the rules and not a violation of anything.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible - you folks supporting cheating would be the first ones to bitch and moan if someone cheated you out of a Kona spot.

I never said that riding into the draft zone to pass and actually making the pass was drafting either. But if you fail to make the pass in the required time it is drafting which is a violation. Which  is my whole point. “Drafting” by definition can happen under many circumstances. “Drafting” in not cheating it is a rule violation. The intention is what makes the rule violation morally wrong.

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14 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

I never said that riding into the draft zone to pass and actually making the pass was drafting either. But if you fail to make the pass in the required time it is drafting which is a violation.

And if you 'viloate' the rules and gain an advantage you have cheated - what part of that don't you get?  You can debate how it happens until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact - refer to the definition I posted earlier.

If you can't pass someone, especially when they're required to sit up and let you by, then you have no business attempting the pass - you're just drafting. Based on you're premise it would be fine to just sit behind anyone and occasionally drop back to suggest you're just unable to pass them.

Triathlon's a funny sport, so many people cheat but not thinking it's wrong - wankers really.

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3 hours ago, Turts said:

Soooooo if everyone else is speeding then its OK? 

I think his point is everyone that drafts doesn’t get caught. 

Im sure he would prefer everyone that speeds gets caught. And if they are on a road with speed cameras everyone does. 

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15 hours ago, trinube said:

And if you 'viloate' the rules and gain an advantage you have cheated - what part of that don't you get?  You can debate how it happens until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact - refer to the definition I posted earlier.

If you can't pass someone, especially when they're required to sit up and let you by, then you have no business attempting the pass - you're just drafting. Based on you're premise it would be fine to just sit behind anyone and occasionally drop back to suggest you're just unable to pass them.

Triathlon's a funny sport, so many people cheat but not thinking it's wrong - wankers really.

Trinube have you raced on the port mac course?

Climbing Matthew Flinders Drive.  Anyone inside 12m but not making a pass is cheating by your rules?  They are drafting by the letter of the law.

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15 hours ago, Peter said:

Im sure he would prefer everyone that speeds gets caught. And if they are on a road with speed cameras everyone does. 

Actually, if you are drafting close enough, you usually get away with it. :)

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2 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

Trinube have you raced on the port mac course?

Climbing Matthew Flinders Drive.  Anyone inside 12m but not making a pass is cheating by your rules?  They are drafting by the letter of the law.

Not raced but have ridden up there with my mate Humdrum.

I'm not suggesting TOs should park on MFD during a race as it is an unusual circumstance and you'd expect common sense to prevail. I will say however, that it's still the competitors responsibility to maintain their distance. I suspect most people encroaching here would have little trouble passing the people in front as many slow to a crawl. But what's a TO to do if a drafting group decides to just roll up MFD together with no respect for the rules at all?

As I said earlier, I have not mentioned accidental incursions at all. I do believe it's the competitors responsibility to only pass when they can legally do so and if they can't they should be done for drafting - which is cheating. I'm still staggered you can get DQ'd for dropping a water bottle but blatant cheating is perfectly acceptable.

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I guess maybe another way to look at it unless you are in the top 20 does it really matter? I personally wont give a rats ar$e about my position in Geelong-it will be all about my time.

But if I cared about place hell yeah Id be upset at someone beating me who I knew had drafted.

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1 hour ago, trinube said:

Not raced but have ridden up there with my mate Humdrum.

I'm not suggesting TOs should park on MFD during a race as it is an unusual circumstance and you'd expect common sense to prevail. I will say however, that it's still the competitors responsibility to maintain their distance. I suspect most people encroaching here would have little trouble passing the people in front as many slow to a crawl. But what's a TO to do if a drafting group decides to just roll up MFD together with no respect for the rules at all?

As I said earlier, I have not mentioned accidental incursions at all. I do believe it's the competitors responsibility to only pass when they can legally do so and if they can't they should be done for drafting - which is cheating. I'm still staggered you can get DQ'd for dropping a water bottle but blatant cheating is perfectly acceptable.

I disagree it's easy to pass.

 

12m on flat is what 2 to 3 seconds going 35kph.  Hit a hill the gap closes.  Doesn't mean you're going faster than the person in front.  Same as hitting  a aide station and everyone slowing for a bottle.  Cause you enter the draft zone do you skip the bottle and bust yourself to overtake so you don't get pinged.  Remember we aren't breaking the rules for gain here just circumstances make this happen and you have to decide if you're going to live your life to the letter of the law or be realistic about what's going on.

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19 minutes ago, more said:

I guess maybe another way to look at it unless you are in the top 20 does it really matter? I personally wont give a rats ar$e about my position in Geelong-it will be all about my time.

But if I cared about place hell yeah Id be upset at someone beating me who I knew had drafted.

Just makes it more rewarding when you pass them on the run.

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@trinube

what does this comment mean?

“If you can't pass someone, especially when they're required to sit up and let you by, then you have no business attempting the pass - you're just drafting”

I am not sure I understand the bit where you say sit up and let them by. Until they have their wheel infront I would be continuing to push. Nothing stopping the person in front accelerating. 

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2 minutes ago, ashley_s said:

@trinube

what does this comment mean?

“If you can't pass someone, especially when they're required to sit up and let you by, then you have no business attempting the pass - you're just drafting”

I am not sure I understand the bit where you say sit up and let them by. Until they have their wheel infront I would be continuing to push. Nothing stopping the person in front accelerating. 

Yes, yes, when the front wheel passes mine, snap I''ll drop back until then I'm doing my thing. Almost time for the dropping in  posts to start.

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7 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

Trinube have you raced on the port mac course?

Climbing Matthew Flinders Drive.  Anyone inside 12m but not making a pass is cheating by your rules?  They are drafting by the letter of the law.

The drafting rules don't apply if you're pushing your bike hence mfd is a draft free zone...

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4 hours ago, more said:

I guess maybe another way to look at it unless you are in the top 20 does it really matter? I personally wont give a rats ar$e about my position in Geelong-it will be all about my time.

But if I cared about place hell yeah Id be upset at someone beating me who I knew had drafted.

The thing is, people that cheat need to cheat again and again to beat their time. 

If you do your race and race legal you know your time and where you are really at. 

For example. I did a group ride last night over a course I do once a fortnight.  Usually just 2 of us. 

Last night in the group I got 47 PR Strava trophys.  

Ill never pr those sections solo. 

Same for races. Sure you can cheat but it’s someone else’s race. Not yours. 

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4 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

Just makes it more rewarding when you pass them on the run.

The last race I did I led the bike all the way, with an arsehole sitting on my back wheel the whole distance. The only times he was more than a metre back was when I tried to drop him on the turn-arounds a couple times. I swore at him, told him to F-off, and basically tried to run him off the road twice, but he just stuck like glue and told me we had to go as hard as possible cause the guy a few hundred metres back was a really good runner.

Is there anybody that wouldn't call that cheating?

 

And yes, it felt great catching him after he left me at the start of the run and then beating him. :)

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Drafting is a rule violation, subject to time and, if done repeatedly, DQ penalties. It is determined objectively (as objectively as possible given the circumstances) by time and distance.

Cheating – i.e. a premeditated rule violation with intent to gain an advantage – can get you suspended or expelled from the sport. In theory. Two separate, albeit sometimes related, infractions.

Theory doesn't hold up in practice, though. In 20 years of reffing (I retired from it last year), I don't how many thousands of drafting penalties I documented as an assistant ref or assessed as a head ref (the USAT system is different from the TA other ITU-based rulebooks). There isn't a single one where I could have made a cheating infraction stick, and I would have been rightly laughed out of the officials' program if I had tried. The only time I was involved in trying to prosecute (that's the term we use) a cheating infraction was with a serial course-cutter. It got bogged down in paperwork and never got anywhere. I believe it was eventually resolved through the mental health system – course cutting was apparently just one of her personality quirks.

The last thing TOs should worry about out on the course is intent. X seconds closer than Y meters and, boom, that's a penalty. Period.

If you're running down field with the ball and put a foot out of bounds, does the ref ask why you did it? Does he wonder if you were trying to deliberately gain an advantage? Does he care that the big, bad man pushed you? No. He just blows the whistle. Do you spend half an hour arguing with him? Do you demand to see the evidence? Do you spend the next week pleading your case on social media? No, you get on with the game.

That's the way drafting, or any other bike position rules, should be enforced. Treat it as a technical time and distance violation of the rules and just make the call. Athletes will get the message and start riding legally – partly out of fear of a penalty and partly out of confidence that they won't be at disadvantage if they follow the rules. When I started reffing, we were just implementing the system. It was common for more than 10% of the field to receive a bike position penalty. Within ten years, that figure had dropped to 3%, and over the next ten years dropped to 2%. That's in USAT-officiated age group races, which doesn't include WTC or similar races. (Technically, those are referred to as self-officiated races, we just call them draft legal :-).

Edited by steve
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45 minutes ago, steve said:

If you're running down field with the ball and put a foot out of bounds, does the ref ask why you did it? Does he wonder if you were trying to deliberately gain an advantage? Does he care that the big, bad man pushed you? No. He just blows the whistle. Do you spend half an hour arguing with him? Do you demand to see the evidence? Do you spend the next week pleading your case on social media? No, you get on with the game.

The ref is there watching everything and everyone. sometimes they make mistake but that's life.

How many TO's are watching 1400 competitors over 180km? 90km?

The system isn't fair to everyone.

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