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Peter

Is drafting cheating or other?

Is drafting cheating  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. Is drafting cheating?

    • Drafting is cheating
      33
    • Drafting is a rule violation
      10
    • Rules are made to be broken
      3


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Having a chat with someone today and she doesnt consider drafting cheating.  

Onder what others think 

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28 minutes ago, Peter said:

Having a chat with someone today and she doesnt consider drafting cheating.

She's wrong:

Cheat, noun - a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.

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Not walking when you know you nicked it to the keeper.  Claiming a catch you didn't make or an lbw you know really missed.  Holding down in the tackle.  Claiming an injury time in tennis to take a break.  Holding onto the team car or holding the drink bottle while the helper in the car is still holding on to.  When is it pushing the limit, and when is it cheating?  Many say when there's an official involved then if they didn't see it it didn't happen.  

Me, I've never done or will do any of those things.  But I'm a saint.

I would take a guess your friend would do all those things.

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Clarification required.

*had she already qualified for kona

*did it affect the results

*did the race director clearly label out what    12m distance

 

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If a rule violation gives you an advantage, it is cheating. 

Or you need to define rule violation versus cheating. 

Your poll needs work. 

Edited by Turts

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Cheating depends on the intent? If you meant to do it, it's cheating. If it was an accident, then a rule violation

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31 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Clarification required.

*had she already qualified for kona

*did it affect the results

*did the race director clearly label out what    12m distance

 

Was it their A Race

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Drafting is cheating, as it gains an advantage against the rules.

Swearing at a TO is a rule violation.

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

Cheating depends on the intent? If you meant to do it, it's cheating. If it was an accident, then a rule violation

I like that.  Both require a penalty.  But the intent is the difference.

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Technically speaking, you are able to draft when making a pass as long as you spend no longer than allowed in the draft zone (effectively using this time to slipstream) and the passed athlete must then drop back the second that the athlete passing's wheel passes the front leading edge of the passed athlete. How often that happens is debatable. 

This is what we, as TOs, were taught and the same rule still applies. 

Intent is another thing.

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48 minutes ago, Rimmer said:

Technically speaking, you are able to draft when making a pass as long as you spend no longer than allowed in the draft zone (effectively using this time to slipstream) and the passed athlete must then drop back the second that the athlete passing's wheel passes the front leading edge of the passed athlete. 

This is precisely how I approached busso, sat well more than 12m behind but when I went to pass I would come right up behind them before pulling out and go past.  All in the allowable time limit.  Felt I played within the rules

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41 minutes ago, KieranR said:

This is precisely how I approached busso, sat well more than 12m behind but when I went to pass I would come right up behind them before pulling out and go past.  All in the allowable time limit.  Felt I played within the rules

And you have. The rules are the rules ... willingly breaching the 12m, or failing to take care in not breaching is cheating. 

Simples. End of. 

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Thankfully most of my racing was done under the old 5m and 7m rules. :lol: 

but I didn’t cheat. 

12m rule would test the patience though. 

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5 hours ago, roxii said:

Thankfully most of my racing was done under the old 5m and 7m rules. :lol: 

but I didn’t cheat. 

12m rule would test the patience though. 

the 5 and 7 were good. 12 metres makes it hard for people to complete passes leading to all sorts of problems

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Drafting can be both - cheating or rule violation. The difference is intent.

Accidental drafting vs intended drafting.

FM  

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I've said before that things would be easier under the 7 metre {front to front).  As a TO, we were told to imagine a Commodore fitting between the riders.  Being able to easily visualise the distance is key.  12 metres is a pain to judge, a family sedan is easy.

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11 hours ago, trinube said:

She's wrong:

Cheat, noun - a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.

In that case, perhaps we need to reconsider if it is right to say Lance was a cheat?

Notwithstanding he wasn’t honest, it’s questionable whether he was he gaining an advantage compared to his competitors who were also on the gear...

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1 minute ago, trilobite said:

In that case, perhaps we need to reconsider if it is right to say Lance was a cheat?

Notwithstanding he wasn’t honest, it’s questionable whether he was he gaining an advantage compared to his competitors who were also on the gear...

He was gaining an advantage.

Over the 1 or 2 cyclists in the pro ranks who weren't cheating.

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7 hours ago, KieranR said:

This is precisely how I approached busso, sat well more than 12m behind but when I went to pass I would come right up behind them before pulling out and go past.  All in the allowable time limit.  Felt I played within the rules

But if ur a pro, slipstreaming is a violation. They must pull out first. 

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It's cheating when you do it.

It's part of the game when I do it.

Simple.

  • Haha 1

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It's not cheating. If we are going to classify it as cheating then what about pissing on the bike, saves a good 2 - 3 mins and it's a more serious offence, instant DQ. And we all do that including the pros.

Re drafting, the issue isn't with the athletes, the problem lies with RDs, TOs and the various triathlon organisations that fail to police it. It's a pretty simply problem to sort out. 

 

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12 hours ago, goughy said:

Not walking when you know you nicked it to the keeper.  Claiming a catch you didn't make or an lbw you know really missed.  Holding down in the tackle.  Claiming an injury time in tennis to take a break.  Holding onto the team car or holding the drink bottle while the helper in the car is still holding on to.  When is it pushing the limit, and when is it cheating?  Many say when there's an official involved then if they didn't see it it didn't happen.  

Me, I've never done or will do any of those things.  But I'm a saint.

I would take a guess your friend would do all those things.

Yeah exactly, happens in all sports. 

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38 minutes ago, zed said:

It's not cheating. If we are going to classify it as cheating then what about pissing on the bike, saves a good 2 - 3 mins and it's a more serious offence, instant DQ. And we all do that including the pros.

 

38 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah exactly, happens in all sports.

I wouldn't assume that everyone does what you do, or, because something 'happens in all sports' that the actions are not cheating or acceptable. 

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1 hour ago, zed said:

It's not cheating. If we are going to classify it as cheating then what about pissing on the bike, saves a good 2 - 3 mins and it's a more serious offence, instant DQ. And we all do that including the pros.

Re drafting, the issue isn't with the athletes, the problem lies with RDs, TOs and the various triathlon organisations that fail to police it. It's a pretty simply problem to sort out. 

 

Geezus unless I'm trying to qualify or win I'm not sure why in the hell anyone would piss on them selves just to save a couple of minutes??

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6 minutes ago, more said:

Geezus unless I'm trying to qualify or win I'm not sure why in the hell anyone would piss on them selves just to save a couple of minutes??

The secret is to not piss on yourself, but that's a bit harder for women. 

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36 minutes ago, more said:

Geezus unless I'm trying to qualify or win I'm not sure why in the hell anyone would piss on them selves just to save a couple of minutes??

I once saw macca running over the Forster bridge doing a piss. Yes whilst running.  

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2 hours ago, zed said:

For a west Australian, It's not cheating.

Fixed that for you

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38 minutes ago, more said:

 I'm not sure why in the hell anyone would piss on them selves just to save a couple of minutes??

Hey.... don’t knock it till ya tried it 

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lol so is this some weird fetish....or every second counts :blink:  :D

 

Then again I did spend a ridiculous amount on aero carbon wheels to save 10 seconds :whistling:

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Rule violation. I have drafted, but I was not out there to cheat or gain advantage, just getting stuck on a super crowded course. Ever played leap frog? Some races have felt like that, pass someone, then 2 seconds later, pass someone else....

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15 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Drafting is cheating, as it gains an advantage against the rules.

Swearing at a TO is a rule violation.

That sums that up pretty well IMHO

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39 minutes ago, MissJess said:

Ever played leap frog? Some races have felt like that, pass someone, then 2 seconds later, pass someone else....

As an average swimmer and a better-than-average cyclist, yeah I've played leap frog

A lot...

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4 hours ago, xblane said:

 

I wouldn't assume that everyone does what you do, or, because something 'happens in all sports' that the actions are not cheating or acceptable. 

2000+ competitors on the course and I can't say I've seen many (any) people using the on course toilets on the bike. I would say the majority of agers would p*ss themselves and all pros would.

Not saying drafting is acceptable, but I wouldn't regard it as cheating. Cheating offences should result in instant DQ.

Edited by zed

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3 hours ago, more said:

Geezus unless I'm trying to qualify or win I'm not sure why in the hell anyone would piss on them selves just to save a couple of minutes??

2mins = 3months of swim training down the drain. But really the gross factor for me is way down the scale, you're covered in sweat, snot, sticky sports drink a little bit of piss isn't much to worry about! I think Chrissie Wellington crapped herself on the bike during Kona 2008. I might draw the line there. Perhaps...

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Especially when she won by fifteen minutes.  Even my first morning one doesn't take that long.

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5 hours ago, zed said:

It's not cheating.

Re drafting, the issue isn't with the athletes, the problem lies with RDs, TOs and the various triathlon organisations that fail to police it. It's a pretty simply problem to sort out.

 

5 hours ago, zed said:

Yeah exactly, happens in all sports. 

 

51 minutes ago, zed said:

Not saying drafting is acceptable, but I wouldn't regard it as cheating. Cheating offences should result in instant DQ.

Of course it's cheating.

It's breaking the rules in order to gain an unfair advantage over other competitors. How can that not be considered cheating?

It certainly is an issue for athletes, as it is for RDs, TOs and the sport's administrative bodies. Though in no small way it comes down to the individual athletes competing with integrity.

Yes, courses can be better designed to minimise drafting, TOs can enforce rules as best they can, but to suggest that we as athletes have no responsibility for our own behaviour is a ludicrous assertion.

You can't compare triathlon to other sports such as football, cricket or tennis, where there is an umpire in attendance to adjudicate on every moment of the match. That scenario isn't practical in tri and other endurance sports. To some degree, fair competition necessarily relies on athletes having a degree of integrity to abide by the rules.

Drafting is a rule violation that may result in a DQ, however discretionary warnings or penalties can be reasonably employed to enforce rules in many sports. In that context, tri does operate similarly to other sports.

When we line up at a race with hundreds or thousands of fellow competitors, it's worth considering our own decisions and actions as an individual competitor and think, "What would the event be like if everyone did this?" If the answer is "Pretty f*cked up!", it's fairly obvious how you should behave, whether there's something written in the rule book about it or not.

Edited by Paul Every
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People who do the wrong thing always like to try to justify their actions...

Edited by more
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5 hours ago, zed said:

 

Re drafting, the issue isn't with the athletes, the problem lies with RDs, TOs and the various triathlon organisations that fail to police it. It's a pretty simply problem to sort out. 

 

So drug taking, you could say the same thing, organisations failing to police, 

Simple to police, have test, then be allowed to start race. Just need more resources

 

yes above is extreme view but there are individuals who use the same rational to justify actions.

 

My view is blantant drafting is an individual decision not to play within the rules

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14 hours ago, roxii said:

Thankfully most of my racing was done under the old 5m and 7m rules. :lol: 

but I didn’t cheat. 

12m rule would test the patience though. 

Or way back when the rule was two bike lengths.

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58 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

 

 

Of course it's cheating.

 

Ok it's cheating. Have you ever pissed on the bike? Is there an ethical difference between drafting and pissing on the bike? 

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5 minutes ago, zed said:

Ok it's cheating. Have you ever pissed on the bike? Is there an ethical difference between drafting and pissing on the bike? 

No.  A deliberate rule breach is a deliberate rule breach

Edited by IronJimbo

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16 minutes ago, zed said:

Have you ever pissed on the bike?

No, not on my bike. My aim is way too good for that. :whistling:

 

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Didn't Burgs get DQ'ed for pissing in the penalty box? Not sure what advantage over his competitors that gives him.

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10 minutes ago, AA7 said:

Didn't Burgs get DQ'ed for pissing in the penalty box? Not sure what advantage over his competitors that gives him.

And Matty Harris was DQed and banned from Forster for several years after mooning the crowd as he cycled around the Head Street roundabout. :BN_Characters_fullmoon:

Some rules are instituted for reasons other than competitive fairness. eg, competitor safety, not scaring children.

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Ok it's cheating. Have you ever pissed on the bike? Is there an ethical difference between drafting and pissing on the bike? 

Yep, but back then the rule was that you couldn't expose yourself in a lewd manner, so discrete peeing was ok. :)

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9 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Yep, but back then the rule was that you couldn't expose yourself in a lewd manner, so discrete peeing was ok. :)

Back in the day when it perfectly acceptable to expose yourself in a non-lewd manner. :shy:

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30 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

Back in the day when it perfectly acceptable to expose yourself in a non-lewd manner. :shy:

Well, peeing in your knicks wasn't exposing yourself. 

And I figured peeing to the bush side of Lakes Way, out near the turnaround, with nobody in sight was not lewd. :)

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