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Ironman pacing strategy

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Just a question re pacing IMWA. I’m not riding to power, just HR and will aim to keep it high 130s, low 140s. 180km at the weekend on Busso course I av 34 km/hr with av HR of 139. Did a 80km ride on Sunday with 32km brick run @ 5min pace av HR 152 for run.  I’m aiming to ride really conservatively, but am worried that it may be too conservative, leaving me too much to do on the run.

The guys that race similar 70.3 times to me are all around 9.50 – 10.10 for the full, so I’d be happy with coming in at that time, be great to sneak under 10, but I guess I need to get the balance right. Looking at 10 guys who rode similar Busso 70.3 bike splits (as a rough guide) to me (2.25) they’re all riding way quicker than I plan to during the full, low 5s. I was thinking 5.15 max, even 5.20 which would be almost a training ride.  People are looking at me like I kray kray when I say I'm planning on riding a 5.20.

Anyway add 1.05 for swim and T1/T2, leaves me having to run a 3.35…. seems awful quick! The 32km brick run @ 5min pace did feel fine, but then that was only off an 80km ride.

 

*These times are based on the assumption max temp = 15C

Edited by zed

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My wife rode a 5:06 from memory (maybe 5:10) and 9:45 overall at Busso a few years back.  I reckon should had had difficulty riding 2:25 for a half.  But she has a diesel engine and can just lock in a pretty solid pace all day  

How hard were you going for the 2:25?

I’d say 5:10 would be a reasonable target. 

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Actually she rode 5:11. 

I reckon you aren’t far off correct pacing if you can keep HR around 140. Better chance of running 5 min k’s with a controlled effort on the bike. 

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15 minutes ago, Shuffla said:

My wife rode a 5:06 from memory (maybe 5:10) and 9:45 overall at Busso a few years back.  I reckon should had had difficulty riding 2:25 for a half.  But she has a diesel engine and can just lock in a pretty solid pace all day  

How hard were you going for the 2:25?

I’d say 5:10 would be a reasonable target. 

2.25 was too hard. Running plenty in training, but not enough biking, meant I'd not run great. I'm biking more now. But also bit more aware of pacing on the bike, I think, perhaps, way too many people over-bike? 

I don't think I want to go any quicker than 5.10. 

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Zed

10 or 15 mins slower on the bike so it feels comfortable will gain you 20 mins on the run.

A 5.15 to 5.20 will have you run well and passing the guys who went too hard on the bike.

Be patient its all about the second half of the run.

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It all depends on how you pace the first run that replaces the cancelled swim.... go too hard there and it'll be  along day...

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Hey Zed.  You are Zinging.  Is this you telling us how good your going?

If you are riding to hr of 130/140 then the speed is irrelevant.  You are going good.  You should go better with a taper and then you'll be really zinging.  Best of Luck.  Just get it done mate.  Training times don't count.

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Just a question. 

 

How do you FEEL when you are riding ~5:15 effort? 

Because your HR could be off, either up or down on the day. 

 

I'd ignore the HR and go off how you feel. Refer to HR for reference purposes only. 

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Just now, FFF1077 said:

Just a question. 

 

How do you FEEL when you are riding ~5:15 effort? 

Because your HR could be off, either up or down on the day. 

 

I'd ignore the HR and go off how you feel. Refer to HR for reference purposes only. 

definitely should be if you are tapered well....

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Zed for your weekend ride did you have the following

Race wheels

Race tyres/tubes

Race helmet

Other athletes (no not drafting but other people on course help more than riding solo)

My fastest ever 180 in training is 5.50 and 5.02 raceday.  

Re pacing that's a completely individual feeling to learn and I know my idea from my first two ironman races is very different from now but I can't explain the feeling.

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24 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Zed for your weekend ride did you have the following

Race wheels

Race tyres/tubes

Race helmet

Other athletes (no not drafting but other people on course help more than riding solo)

My fastest ever 180 in training is 5.50 and 5.02 raceday.  

Re pacing that's a completely individual feeling to learn and I know my idea from my first two ironman races is very different from now but I can't explain the feeling.

Yeah race sim. There were 20 people, but we were set off at different times, so no drafting, race wheels, tyres, helmet. Just bike clothes though, too cold for trisuit. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, FFF1077 said:

Just a question. 

 

How do you FEEL when you are riding ~5:15 effort? 

Because your HR could be off, either up or down on the day. 

 

I'd ignore the HR and go off how you feel. Refer to HR for reference purposes only. 

yeah felt OK. I was using my optical HRM though which can be off. Will be using chest HRM on race day. 

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1 hour ago, Infinit Jase said:

  Is this you telling us how good your going?

 

ha ha nah. 

Just been looking at people's times and their splits are all over the place, e.g guys riding 4.40s then running 5 hours. Seems like a lot of poor pacing on the bike? Even at the top level it seems to me guys aren't pacing it right? You can almost get away with it in a 70.3, but I guess you can go too hard on the bike you could be walking and your run time blows out by an hour? But I'm a virtual IM noob so don't know.   

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Regardless of what the HRM or the computer is telling you - the best way to pace the bike is - "If it doesn't feel easy, it's probably too hard" - then when you get onto the run keep this old saying in mind "No-one ever got to the end of an Ironman marathon and wished he'd run the first five km faster".

In my recent race in Hawaii I approached it as a real long warm up - with a 20km run at the end - I went through my day looking forward to the last 20km 😉

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2 minutes ago, AP said:

Regardless of what the HRM or the computer is telling you - the best way to pace the bike is - "If it doesn't feel easy, it's probably too hard" - then when you get onto the run keep this old saying in mind "No-one ever got to the end of an Ironman marathon and wished he'd run the first five km faster".

In my recent race in Hawaii I approached it as a real long warm up - with a 20km run at the end - I went through my day looking forward to the last 20km 😉

That's exactly how I'm looking at it mate. I'm going to get overtaken by a lot of people on the bike, I just got to stay disciplined.  

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Great advice AP 

 

Scott Molina said "don't start racing till you get to the finish line carpet" 

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14 minutes ago, zed said:

That's exactly how I'm looking at it mate. I'm going to get overtaken by a lot of people on the bike, I just got to stay disciplined.  

Mate there is a phenomenon I have experienced many times called the tide turning.  For the first couple hours everyone is passing you.  Then they pass you slower then they stop disappearing and start coming back at you.  Then when you hit the run its just a flood coming back.  That's how you know you nailed your pacing.

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19 minutes ago, KieranR said:

Do what your coach says...or are you self coached

Cough, cough...

 

still winging it. 

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1 hour ago, AP said:

"No-one ever got to the end of an Ironman marathon and wished he'd run the first five km faster".

Oh. Contraire: Macca - 2006 Hawaiian Ironman; at the end of the day he’d have loved to have gone 75 seconds faster over the first part along Ali drive ... but other than that. Yep.

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10 minutes ago, zed said:

Cough, cough...

 

still winging it. 

MKC 

trust me 😎👌👌

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1 minute ago, Tyno said:

Just fang it mate.

Busso is a very nice place for a walk.

 

even with the flies?

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10 minutes ago, Tyno said:

Just fang it mate.

Busso is a very nice place for a walk.

 

TRI GOLD 😂😂😂😂

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39 minutes ago, KieranR said:

even with the flies?

I did most of my walk in the dark. Hardly any flies then. : )

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Just coming to the realisation now.  You did a 180k tt at race power/hr then the next day another 60k +32k run at IM pace?

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21 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Just coming to the realisation now.  You did a 180k tt at race power/hr then the next day another 60k +32k run at IM pace?

Lionel Sanders come on down!

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28 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Just coming to the realisation now.  You did a 180k tt at race power/hr then the next day another 60k +32k run at IM pace?

Yeah with 20min brick run on the Sat.

Edited by zed

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Except I don’t think I will be running @ 5 min pace.

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Post your race number zed - I'll keep an eye out for you - I'll be there supporting in the shade somewhere 😎

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This is a great article, echoes what AP is saying.

 

https://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/4-keys-to-ironman-execution

It's hard to get my head around taking it easy on the bike.... it's a race. But anyway...

 

Do you think a lot of competitive, experienced AGers still overbike in a full?

Edited by zed

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3 hours ago, zed said:

This is a great article, echoes what AP is saying.

 

https://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/4-keys-to-ironman-execution

It's hard to get my head around taking it easy on the bike.... it's a race. But anyway...

 

Do you think a lot of competitive, experienced AGers still overbike in a full?

Everyone who “ races “ overbikes to some point 

all depends how much and also how well you can actually run off the bike 

if your nailed your nutrition and have plenty of mongral, then good racers will get away with it easily and carry the advantage of the extra time gained on the bike into a good solid fast run , hence a great race 

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On 02/11/2018 at 8:01 PM, zed said:

Yeah with 20min brick run on the Sat.

That's a pretty epic weekend mate.  Was that your idea?

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If I am correctly guessing.... 

 

The whole squad did it. 

Bread and butter 

Long ride/short run Sat 

Short ride/longer run Sunday 

 

The double ride idea is great I reckon 

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15 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

That's a pretty epic weekend mate.  Was that your idea?

Cheers. It was a squad training camp, I'm not part of the training squad but the coach Brad Hoskin opened it up to anyone. 

I would have preferred to do a long run off the 180km bike rather than the 20min. Still not sure how well I'll run after 180. 

Edited by zed

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19 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

How much fatigue were you carrying into that weekend zed

Nothing too crazy. 8 hours for the Mon - Fri. No longish runs or rides though.

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Zed I reckon you would benefit from sitting down with someone who's results are what you want to achieve and comparing you build to theirs. 

 

I'll also go out on a limb here and suggest the distances are bread and butter but not the intensities .

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30 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

Zed I reckon you would benefit from sitting down with someone who's results are what you want to achieve and comparing you build to theirs.

Too late now.

Strategy: go balls out hard from the start and enjoy drinking a few crampfix on the walk.

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1 hour ago, vo2max said:

Brett do you feel distance is more important than intensity in training?

 

The very basic answer is yes.  There is nothing sexy about getting the work done for an ironman and any of the guys finishing in the front pack will tell you it's just about grinding it out.  If you bring too much intensity in you can't recover well enough to back up day after day week after week.

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On 07/11/2018 at 10:48 AM, RunBrettRun said:

Zed I reckon you would benefit from sitting down with someone who's results are what you want to achieve and comparing you build to theirs. 

 

 

Yup good idea.

 

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1 hour ago, vo2max said:

Brett do you feel distance is more important than intensity in training?

 

I did a 160km training ride the other day, rode as a pack, 10mins at the front, rolling. Finished feeling like I'd ridden to the park with the kids. Did get me thinking about how much (or little) I got out of that. I suppose ideally you'd sit 12m+ behind and just ride by yourselves rather than as a pack, but I don't know any clubs/squads that do that.  

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9 hours ago, zed said:

I did a 160km training ride the other day, rode as a pack, 10mins at the front, rolling. Finished feeling like I'd ridden to the park with the kids. Did get me thinking about how much (or little) I got out of that. I suppose ideally you'd sit 12m+ behind and just ride by yourselves rather than as a pack, but I don't know any clubs/squads that do that.  

Yep 

Unfortunately at times the reality is that it's an individual sport when done fairly. 

Still go with that pack but sit on the front all day. As long as that puts you in the right effort you want to be training. 

Just a thought? 👍✌️

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