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monkie

Target CTL

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13 hours ago, monkie said:

I think that's pretty much exactly what I said ;)

True that. Trivia: The quote was first attributed to George Box, found in his statistics presentations in the 1970s.

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14 hours ago, Peter said:

This is actually really smart.  never looked at watching each sport.  

My swim and bike are spot on I think, but even though my settings are correct for running, it's very generous on TSS. 

This is exactly what I would suggest.

As you note, it might be useful to identify patterns for each modality, assess whether the individual modality inputs are suspect for whatever reason, and permits you to consider adjusting parameters for each, e.g. recovery time parameters may well be different for joint impact activity like running compared with highly variable effort modality of cycling v relatively steady state swimming.

I'm not sure TSS from each modality are linearly additive in any case, but given the chart is not hugely sensitive to such things, if it's just general guidance on workload and your training doesn't change all that much then it probably doesn't matter.

Where it might be problematic is dealing with changes in training modality distribution which would require additional care in interpreting the numbers and is where tracking the individual modalities is I think a better option.

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@Alex Simmons I always have to read your stuff a few times, but I love it  :)  I really appreciate your contributions. 

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1 minute ago, xblane said:

@Alex Simmons I always have to read your stuff a few times, but I love it  :)  I really appreciate your contributions. 

Same. I find 3 times before I understand it.

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There is so much that can be played around with and frankly it takes years to fully test how training impacts performance.

Just looking at CTL for bike and run as an example. You may be a far better runner and mininimise injuries with a bike CTL of 50 and a run CTL of 30, vs 40:40 split, then again you might not be. Personally as an aging athlete (51), I know I can ride a lot and not get injured but I need to be really careful with my running and how quicly I build. So I can built Total CTL by adding a lot more biking than I can with adding it to running. Does it help performance, this is what needs to be understood and why it takes so long to develop peak performance when traiing 3 discplines.

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I've actually bought into the AP rule of running of never 2 days in a row.

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6 hours ago, Evil Guru said:

There is so much that can be played around with and frankly it takes years to fully test how training impacts performance.

This and also keeping in mind that TSS is a stress score, and CTL and ATL are workload measures based on TSS and none of them are adaptation measures.

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7 hours ago, xblane said:

@Alex Simmons I always have to read your stuff a few times, but I love it  :)  I really appreciate your contributions. 

 

7 hours ago, Peter said:

Same. I find 3 times before I understand it.

Thanks, happy to contribute.

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3 hours ago, Alex Simmons said:

 

Thanks, happy to contribute.

Read three times and I'm still too stupid to understand this post

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4 hours ago, Alex Simmons said:

This and also keeping in mind that TSS is a stress score, and CTL and ATL are workload measures based on TSS and none of them are adaptation measures.

Enter decoupling and all the other fun I'm just discovering!

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9 hours ago, monkie said:

Enter decoupling and all the other fun I'm just discovering!

If you mean HR decoupling, not sure I'd read too much into those tea leaves.

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19 hours ago, Peter said:

I've actually bought into the AP rule of running of never 2 days in a row.

I disagree. 

But it requires a different mindset and approach to the overall plan 

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20 hours ago, Peter said:

I've actually bought into the AP rule of running of never 2 days in a row.

Me too

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3 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

I disagree. 

But it requires a different mindset and approach to the overall plan 

I've old.  You aren't.

 

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23 hours ago, Peter said:

I've actually bought into the AP rule of running of never 2 days in a row.

I don't think it's a purely AP idea... I've tried to stick to it since I started training for Sydney marathon in 2017 and have been running injury free since then. I got the idea from here: https://bridgerridgerun.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/how-to-run-a-3-hour-marathon-a-just-enough-training-approach/

Sometimes it doesn't happen and I end up back to backing but it has allowed me to increase my weekly KMs significantly without the knees playing up like they used to. I think it's a good idea for everybody.

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How do runners cope then?  I know many peeps over 40 and a few over 60 who run 5-6 days a week and clock up way more kms that I do (a lot 100+).  They don't have issues with their knees...  I regularly run back to back and am known to run 3 days in a row quite often. 

I don't believe in a blanket rule for all as everyone has different bio-mechanics and different recovery needs.  If you keep (and have kept) on top of your stability and strength work, that will help massively in the future.  

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Running on consecutive days or not is a bit of a furphy.  The best improvement will come from running the most you can while recovering properly from it.  Running more often but shorter and/or slower is one method, leaving more time between runs is another.  Both work but what works best is often down to individual circumstances.  Most people are not willing to run slow enough or short enough ("it's not a real workout") to get the benefits from the former.  Triathletes also suffer the burden of being time poor because they have to fit in swimming and cycling as well as having cardiovascular fitness that exceeds their body's running maturity.

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I've learnt that slow and often builds MY legs with more durability than medium effort and not as often. 

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7 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I don't believe in a blanket rule for all as everyone has different bio-mechanics and different recovery needs. 

Totally agree. I think everybody is just sharing what works for them. I am prone to crap knees (although cycling a lot more has helped with that) and so spreading the load works well for me :)

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7 hours ago, BogFrog said:

How do runners cope then?  I know many peeps over 40 and a few over 60 who run 5-6 days a week and clock up way more kms that I do (a lot 100+).  They don't have issues with their knees...  I regularly run back to back and am known to run 3 days in a row quite often. 

I don't believe in a blanket rule for all as everyone has different bio-mechanics and different recovery needs.  If you keep (and have kept) on top of your stability and strength work, that will help massively in the future.  

I'm not sure anyone is stating there is a blanket rule.  With my history, I'm happy to able to do anything but it's taken some time to work out which volumes and frequencies work for me.  I know this year I peaked at 50km running per week, with one of those being a single 28km run  (not counting LCW marathon).

Very basically i do 1x speedwork, 1 x tempo and 1 x LSD run per week. It's easy to manage.  I do vary what each of those things mean, depending on impending races, family and how my back feels.  I also don't want to give up bike speed for more run volume and there is only so much time to recover.  I would love to try an ultra but the thought of all those hours running each week and what it would do to my back and bike strength is something I'm not sure I want to mess with.

However, i would say there is a world of difference between 'over 40 and a few over 60', once you get further away from from the former and closer to the latter, things change quickly IMO.

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17 hours ago, FatPom said:

I'm not sure anyone is stating there is a blanket rule...

...However, i would say there is a world of difference between 'over 40 and a few over 60', once you get further away from from the former and closer to the latter, things change quickly IMO.

Well it was mentioned as "AP's rule" and he has stated that anyone over 40 shouldn't run 2 days in a row and that "his athletes" don't - that I disagree with. Whatever works for the individual.

And yes, I think my over 60s friends who are running those Ks are not the norm. When I grow up...

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FWIW, I am a month short of 50 and often run multiple days in a row. In fact I feel better after doing a short, easy recovery run. Note that 'short' can be as little as 3km and 'slow' can be up to 2 mins per km slower than 10km race pace (sometimes with a heart rate as low as 120 bpm).

Although I will admit that in the last 2 or 3 years I find it difficult to do hard sessions on consecutive days, even if they are different disciplines.

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8 hours ago, BogFrog said:

Well it was mentioned as "AP's rule" and he has stated that anyone over 40 shouldn't run 2 days in a row and that "his athletes" don't - that I disagree with. Whatever works for the individual.

And yes, I think my over 60s friends who are running those Ks are not the norm. When I grow up...

Yeah but nobody here (except AP) is saying ‘everyone should adopt that’ just some individuals have, that’s all.

Works for, not for others. Running every other day is living on the edge for me:lol:

Edited by FatPom
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What travel and a holiday does to a pretty graph 😭😭😭😭😭😭

 

😂😂👍

Screenshot_20181011-155139_TrainingPeaks.jpg

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22 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

What travel and a holiday does to a pretty graph 😭😭😭😭😭😭

 

😂😂👍

Screenshot_20181011-155139_TrainingPeaks.jpg

I see no significant loss in fitness, but a lovely improvement in fatigue and form. 

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9 minutes ago, Katz said:

I see no significant loss in fitness, but a lovely improvement in fatigue and form. 

Yeah 

Fresh as a daisy on the bike today, run was "normal", arms were slow to warm up in the pool. But the 3hrs over the day had no lasting fatigue. 

👍👍

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Mine, on the other hand, explains quite well why I felt weak on the bike today. 

 

E7833D52-52DE-498D-A62A-439FB2F158DF.jpeg

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1 minute ago, FFF1077 said:

-63??

 

Hardcore 🤘

Stupid. Trying to fit a year worth of training into 8 weeks.

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1 minute ago, Katz said:

Stupid. Trying to fit a year worth of training into 8 weeks.

Bold. 

Not stupid. 😎🤘😁

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3 minutes ago, Katz said:

Stupid. Trying to fit a year worth of training into 8 weeks.

I go to that school of Training

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Be careful you don’t try and fit it all into 2 weeks Katz. Being a little more conservative now may help in the big weeks in 3-4 weeks time. 

I have always looked at it this way when ‘cramming’ - and if it’s 8 weeks for you

Train for 4.5 weeks to be able to hit  2.5 big weeks of training. Followed by 1 week taper. Your focus should be on getting ready for the big weeks, not the race or anything else. It’s nailing those 2.5 weeks (from a good base of the 4.5 weeks) that will get you through the rave. 

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3 minutes ago, Peter said:

I go to that school of Training

There are probably more than are willing to admit it.

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1 hour ago, FFF1077 said:

What travel and a holiday does to a pretty graph 😭😭😭😭😭😭

 

😂😂👍

Screenshot_20181011-155139_TrainingPeaks.jpg

This is nothing! This looks extremely sensible!

Katz, -63... if your thresholds are right you're going to do yourself a mischief surely?

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1 minute ago, monkie said:

Katz, -63... if your thresholds are right you're going to do yourself a mischief surely?

I think the thresholds are pretty close to right. And yes, it is quite likely. Rest day tomorrow and then a few long but low intensity sessions over the weekend, leading into a light week next week as I will be on nightshift again. 

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23 minutes ago, monkie said:

This is nothing! This looks extremely sensible!

Cheers 

So sitting around having a beer and being an idiot with your family is sensible...? LOL 

 

Thanks 👍

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8 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Cheers 

So sitting around having a beer and being an idiot with your family is sensible...? LOL 

 

Thanks 👍

Balance is key. No significant lots of fitness. Fresh as a daisy for the next block. Lovely stuff.

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Please forgive my ignorance on this topic however....remember that CTL is an average of your TSS over 42 days (assuming your threshold paces / power etc are all accurate and you're using the default TrainingPeaks parameters.)  Given this, what YOU have been able to do over the last 42 days will be different to other athletes.  For example, athlete a) might have won the lottery and can train 20 hours a week, or, athlete b) might have 3 kids under 10, own their own business and can get out for 8 - 10 hours of training with their buddies each week.  

As far a "target CTL" goes....don't worry about it.  Do the best training you can for your target race and have the best time doing it...

Edited by Schnapper Head

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