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Ex-Hasbeen

There are some sick people out there:

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Cycling is more dangerous than driving – based on time spent – hours of exposure – you're much more likely to be killed on a bike than in a car.

Sometimes the safe thing to do is claim the lane. But it's a tactic for specific circumstances, not a way of life.

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1 hour ago, AA7 said:

You're more likely to get killed in a car crash than a bike crash, do you still drive your car on the road? 

Man or woman, you make my point. It is the behaviour of others that are making the situation dangerous. 

Ummmm just no. You are far more likely to get killed on a bike.

As for the whole women walking home by themselves late at night-right or wrong its stupid and unsafe. No matter what feel good fantasy land we would like to live in over in reality land there are bad people, always have been ways will be so it's up to you too modify your behaviour to reduce your risk of something bad happening 

Just like on bikes

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14 minutes ago, more said:

Ummmm just no. You are far more likely to get killed on a bike.

As for the whole women walking home by themselves late at night-right or wrong its stupid and unsafe. No matter what feel good fantasy land we would like to live in over in reality land there are bad people, always have been ways will be so it's up to you too modify your behaviour to reduce your risk of something bad happening 

Just like on bikes

image.png.cda7d8d135ab62873ae5a37044d28f14.png

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16 minutes ago, more said:

Ummmm just no. You are far more likely to get killed on a bike.

As for the whole women walking home by themselves late at night-right or wrong its stupid and unsafe. No matter what feel good fantasy land we would like to live in over in reality land there are bad people, always have been ways will be so it's up to you too modify your behaviour to reduce your risk of something bad happening 

Just like on bikes

Of course you take all sensible precautions in any area of life, but there comes a point where you can do no more and you rely on the fact that others are also doing the right thing. 

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18 minutes ago, AA7 said:

image.png.cda7d8d135ab62873ae5a37044d28f14.png

Your graph proves my point exactly-how many millions of drivers are there by how many hours on the road versus how many cyclists there are. The likelihood of death on a bike would be many many times more 

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In my mind I consider situations like this as a work risk assessment. 

If there are things that are out of your control that may kill you, do you still go ahead with the task? 

But in saying that I woudl have no problem riding here, as we do in the Royal national park, just that any group I rode in would by now have called "car up" and would be single file to allow the car an easy passage, and usually wave them through is we have better visibility ahead. 

I do however think they probably are two abreast, just not a neat, tight two abreast.  From the rear a messy two abreast can look like its 5 wide, especially on a bend, but when you get alongside they are two abreast, kinda line the starting grid of a car race, they are all two abreast but staggered so it looks like 4 abreast from the front or rear. 

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9 hours ago, trinube said:

So you're saying that riding on crappy roads with dickheads all around tossing things at you is not flaunting with death?

I don't ride on crappy roads, and that instance of having stuff tossed was on a double lane road, at a time when there were hardly any cars, and I was 2m to the left of the white line at the edge of the road. I now have a camera on the bike.

You may have places to ride in other cities where you can train off the road, but in Brisbane, there is nothing off road better than a 1.2km loop that doesn't either stop every km or 2 to cross a road, or have more people out walking their dog along it than cyclists.

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9 minutes ago, roxii said:

would by now have called "car up" and would be single file

Car up!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

That's ludicrous, the car is behind surely it's a 'car back' call.

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22 minutes ago, prizna said:

Car up!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

That's ludicrous, the car is behind surely it's a 'car back' call.

Sorry yes.  I haven't been on a bike in about 4 months now so its been a while, even longer since I've ridden the park. 

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11 hours ago, more said:

The funny thing I have been riding for years now, at one point I was doing 60k round trips to work through all sorts of traffic and never once have I had any agro directed at me. Quite the opposite actually-i often have drivers wait for me, wave me through etc.

I think this is because they see I'm trying to be considerate and polite. I follow the road rules and never go through red lights. I use shoulders and as a result people give me tons  of room. People appreciate little courtesy

Just because you are on a bike doesn't make you an entitled dickhead. I wouldn't drive down the road at 30kph in my car holding every one up, why should I feel entitled to do it on a bike.

 

Nailed it.

 

I even go so far as every time I hear that a car has backed off the wait to pass me, I give them a wave on the way past to say thankyou.

The only time I 'Own' a lane is for a round-about - I will make it very obvious that I turn my head and wait for a gap in the traffic to enter, peddle my arse off to get through the round about as quickly as possible, then make a very obvious move over the the shoulder when I have exited, and wave thanks to the car behind for their patience.

Its bloody amazing how many waves I get back, thanking me for being considerate.

Regardless of our 'right' to ride in large groups and own lanes, we are never going to become accepted on the road if we make everyone else's life hard.

I ride solo most of the time, and use shoulders. I know some will say that that increases the chance of people passing tight on narrow roads, but I will take that chance. To me the alternative is to ride in the lane, which not only pisses people off and open me up to road rage, but leaves me exposed to someone not seeing me at all, either from inattentiveness or being on a phone etc, and them not seeing me while Im in the lane will have a much worse effect than not seeing me while Im on the shoulder.
 

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So here's my take.

Do the right thing, we're ****ed.  Do the wrong thing, we're ****ed.  Take the safest but less courteous option, we're ****ed.  Take the less safe but courteous option, we're ****ed.  

There are always going to be people who hate us and there is zero (absolutely zero) we can do about them.  Charge us rego, stick a big number plate on our bikes will mean zero to them!

The fact we're arguing with ourselves speaks volumes!

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8 minutes ago, pieman said:

Fixed.. 😁

I'll have you know I rode over 4km last week.

And the section along the river bike path was scarier than the road.

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5 minutes ago, goughy said:

So here's my take.

Do the right thing, we're ****ed.  Do the wrong thing, we're ****ed.  Take the safest but less courteous option, we're ****ed.  Take the less safe but courteous option, we're ****ed.  

There are always going to be people who hate us and there is zero (absolutely zero) we can do about them.  Charge us rego, stick a big number plate on our bikes will mean zero to them!

The fact we're arguing with ourselves speaks volumes!

So there are two dangers the way I see it-innatentive drivers which is largely outside our control. And the other being aggressive bike hating drivers which is somewhat within our control.

As per the vid you could see how much people lose their brain when being held up by 'wankers in spandex'. Next time that guys/people in traffic come across riders their opinion will be 'arsehole bike riders'. Who knows, when you get a bottle thrown at you for no reason it is probably a result of a bike rider pissing this nutjob off in the past.

But do your best to not impede traffic and they can drive past without hardly raising an eyebrow, no stress no aggression and no animosity towards bike riders. Heck they might even be appreciative. IMHO

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15 hours ago, trinube said:

It doesn't matter where it is, a narrow, single lane road with no shoulder is NOT a safe road for largish group rides.

The road is very good and suitable for a group, with just a short section of the road like that due to coming off the dam and the car park entrance on the right. Pretty much just that 100-150m or so bit from the video. Had the video gone on for a just a few more seconds you would have seen the very open straight section was just around the bend - which was the image I posted.

It might be a dickhead driver, but please note that because of the way the group was riding, the driver of the car in front nor the truck driver attempted an unsafe pass.

I bet you that a few seconds later though when the road straightened and there was plenty of room and good sight lines, they got past without delay or difficulty and quite safely.

Had the riders gone single file, it can invite a pass in a dangerous location when a few more seconds later it will be no problem for anyone.

I don't expect to convince you, but I am giving my professional opinion on a matter of cycling safety - something I do as part of my professional and volunteer work.

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5 hours ago, AA7 said:

You're more likely to get killed in a car crash than a bike crash, do you still drive your car on the road? 

Man or woman, you make my point. It is the behaviour of others that are making the situation dangerous. 

Point one, I highly doubt your stats. 580 people were killed last year in cars - 45 cyclists. Based on miles travelled and hours logged I'd say bikes are way, way more risky.

Point two - On the contrary, man or woman putting themselves in a risky situation is dumb. Would you think it wise to walk the back lanes of Kings Cross at 2am? I certainly wouldn't.

If people place themselves in dangerous situations they're likely to have problems, whether it be riding in dangerous places on the road, swimming near seal colonies or walking too close to the edge of a cliff for a selfie.

Risk mitigation is about common sense - problem is people are idiots.

 

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3 hours ago, prizna said:

Car up!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

That's ludicrous, the car is behind surely it's a 'car back' call.

Roxii, a group should NEVER ride single file. Too dangerous, as it invites cars to pass too close (i.e with oncoming traffic), AND lengthens the passing distance at the same time.

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We were never in big groups usually 4-6 max. 

Because the RNP has some sections that are very slow, hilly and twisty cars can get held up for a long time if you block the road and force them to make an unsafe pass. 

We always found it safer for us and others to do it the way we did. If you sat two abreast and held them up chances are they would make an unsafe pass.  Going single file, assessing the traffic up ahead for them then waving them through ensured everyone got through as quickly and safely as possible. 

The proof for me is that in all the years doing that we never had an issue and usually the drivers were happy with our assistance and conduct, hopefully making the roads safer for everyone. 

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I was thinking about groups on my ride in to work today, and to be honest I think that upon reflection large cycling groups are unnecessary and make it very hard to pass and probably agitate car users the most. I have cycled in some large groups and it did cause traffic issues, whereas when there is 3-4 of you it is very manageable. 

When I ride by myself I just hug the left hand side and there is heaps of room to pass in most situations and people are generally not impeded and therefore much less likely to be annoyed. 

What is the real benefit of cycling in a large group of people you hardly know? Couldn't larger groups split into smaller groups for the ride? 

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4 minutes ago, DiaboloACT said:

Roxii, a group should NEVER ride single file. Too dangerous, as it invites cars to pass too close (i.e with oncoming traffic), AND lengthens the passing distance at the same time.

Yes it's certainly the case that going single file often increases risk compared with riding as a group.

But there are scenarios where single file does make sense - but only in locations where doing so enables passing to occur that may not otherwise be possible AND doesn't create a greater risk.

An example might be on road with some shoulder room, enough such that riders can go single file and a vehicle can get safely by with plenty of room for error and without need to cross over to the other lane.

But when that is not possible, it is generally far safer to hold the lane as a group until the road conditions change and passing is again safely possible. In many cases that is not far ahead.

If such difficult passing conditions exist for long sections and traffic counts are high with high posted speed limits, then I definitely agree the road is not so suitable for cycling without additional strategies in place.

The fatalities of cyclists (all road users really) are all terrible but I would note:

- the large majority of cyclist fatalities involving vehicles are the fault of the motor vehicle driver

- the very large majority of fatalities were not riders in a group

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The irony of some posts here would be hilarious if not so serious. The people supporting the riders are the ones who concede there's dickheads everywhere, they've been abused by drivers, run off the road, had things thrown at them and concede the road in question is noted for speeding. So lets do everything we can to irritate the drivers more.

You are completely naive if you think you are going to change drivers' behaviour - if you want to be safe modify your behaviour.

You are beyond crazy if you think riding in groups like this is going to earn drivers' respect - these attitudes are causing the problem, not solving it.

I'm done - some people don't know how to help themselves.

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No trinube, the problem is that people in Australia don't rally behind this cause (not our legislators, not the police, not even cyclists like you, not all those cyclists who have given up and ride indoors making it even more dangerous for those who still ride outdoors). Which means that yes it's making it difficult to change drivers' attitudes/beliefs and behaviours.  But it could be done with constant effort by all these groups.  Instead cyclists here change their behaviour to try to appease the driver-at-fault/entitled driver-type. That has the opposite effect and promotes status quo (cyclists 'get off the road' mentality).

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50 minutes ago, trinube said:

Point one, I highly doubt your stats. 580 people were killed last year in cars - 45 cyclists. Based on miles travelled and hours logged I'd say bikes are way, way more risky.

Point two - On the contrary, man or woman putting themselves in a risky situation is dumb. Would you think it wise to walk the back lanes of Kings Cross at 2am? I certainly wouldn't.

If people place themselves in dangerous situations they're likely to have problems, whether it be riding in dangerous places on the road, swimming near seal colonies or walking too close to the edge of a cliff for a selfie.

Risk mitigation is about common sense - problem is people are idiots.

 

I'm one of the most boring safety conscious people I know, but like I said, there comes a point where there is nothing more I can do to be safe when riding on the road. I think the bigger idiots are the ones turning safe situations into unsafe ones. 

Let's reduce risk by getting people to stop doing the wrong thing.

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If you've ridden forever on QLD roads without any conflict, you are a genuine unicorn and need to be captured for further examination.  Community standards are sinking to such levels am relieved i gave up IM years ago.

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30 minutes ago, Merv said:

If you've ridden forever on QLD roads without any conflict, you are a genuine unicorn and need to be captured for further examination.  Community standards are sinking to such levels am relieved i gave up IM years ago.

Qld drivers are kents. Yes all. No not a generalisation. Yes that includes my grandma.

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Alex I respect all your comments and the background you are coming from. I don't ride in groups, so my angle is comparative only for positioning of the bike in the lane/shoulder,and behaviour towards cars.

But while there may be a lot of valid points you are making, and most on a technical level I agree with, the part that lets them down is the other side of the equation - the drivers.  It doesn't really matter if you are technically riding in a way that is the safest manner. If the general public don't understand WHY you are riding that way, or WHAT it is that you are doing, then riding in packs taking up lanes only leads to animosity, impatience, and rushed and dangerous passing moves.

Its MUCH easier and far more likely for a car to leave 1m gap if they don't have to take their entire car into the oncoming lane to do so.

 

Im also seeing in that video a distinct lack of rear facing flashing lights - again another risk mitigation stance to take.

 

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13 minutes ago, The new guy said:

But while there may be a lot of valid points you are making, and most on a technical level I agree with, the part that lets them down is the other side of the equation - the drivers.  It doesn't really matter if you are technically riding in a way that is the safest manner. If the general public don't understand WHY you are riding that way, or WHAT it is that you are doing, then riding in packs taking up lanes only leads to animosity, impatience, and rushed and dangerous passing moves.

But cyclists moving in droves on to trainers is going to make it even harder for them to understand, or prepare for when they do see cyclists. More cyclists on the road (doing the right thing) will raise awareness for cycling more than any ad campaign.

16 minutes ago, The new guy said:

Its MUCH easier and far more likely for a car to leave 1m gap if they don't have to take their entire car into the oncoming lane to do so.

And yes, I do agree with this, both as a cyclist and as a driver.

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17 hours ago, trinube said:

inhabited by dickhead truck drivers and others who whack it along there.

That's every road out there!

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1 hour ago, The new guy said:

Alex I respect all your comments and the background you are coming from. I don't ride in groups, so my angle is comparative only for positioning of the bike in the lane/shoulder,and behaviour towards cars.

But while there may be a lot of valid points you are making, and most on a technical level I agree with, the part that lets them down is the other side of the equation - the drivers.  It doesn't really matter if you are technically riding in a way that is the safest manner. If the general public don't understand WHY you are riding that way, or WHAT it is that you are doing, then riding in packs taking up lanes only leads to animosity, impatience, and rushed and dangerous passing moves.

Its MUCH easier and far more likely for a car to leave 1m gap if they don't have to take their entire car into the oncoming lane to do so.

 

Im also seeing in that video a distinct lack of rear facing flashing lights - again another risk mitigation stance to take.

 

Thanks for the comments.

As to the pass - when you go single file, the line of riders become at least twice the length, usually much more as there are now double the number of gaps between wheels as well.

This means the driver has to now wonder if they can get around a long line or riders, rather than passing something like a tractor. When on a road with double lines, sometimes there is still enough vision ahead for them to safely pass (and it's legal to do so). But make the passing distance a lot longer and well now what might have been a safe passing opportunity is no longer, or worse they think they can and now go hard left and take out the riders at the front end of the longer line.

So you can see that in some situations, remaining as a double file group is both safer and more convenient for all road users.

And sometimes going single file is better. Sometimes it doesn't matter as the road is wide, multilane, huge rideable shoulder etc. And sometimes drivers of vehicles just need to wait, like this guy did.

Then there is time of day and day of week considerations. This can change whether a route is suitable or not. In this case it's early morning based on the direction and length of shadows. The mountains off to the right in the distance are south west of that point.

Context matters - and if you are only going to go by a still frame or a few seconds of video without detailed knowledge of the road in question, time of day, traffic counts etc, then landing one side or another and proclaiming who should/should not be on that road is jumping to some big conclusions.

The specific road the group has just come around the corner off the dam crossing and it's not a spot you'll be driving all that quickly anyway (it's designed that way, see the armco). The speedo on the truck (you can see it at the end of the video) was 42km/h.

Likewise I accept that I don't know what the group did before this, maybe they were making life hard for kilometers beforehand (although that's hard to believe as there are opportunities before there to pass, e.g. just on the other side of the dam there is a second lane for a vehicle to get round quite easily). Another few hundred meters before that the road is multilane at the traffic lights.

As to rear flashing lights yeah I definitely agree, having lights is a good idea even in bright light.

So in consideration of the video, knowing the specific road conditions and time of day, the speed they were moving, I'd say the chance the truck driver is just being a whiner is 99.8%.

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17 hours ago, AA7 said:

.......... what else I could do to make myself safer. Riding solo to the far left of a bike lane, in daylight, with two flashing lights on the back, brightly coloured jersey, .........

 

That's probably worthy of a thread or poll of its own.

I don't understand the fashion of the last 5 years or so for black or predominantly black cycling attire.

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17 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

That's probably worthy of a thread or poll of its own.

I don't understand the fashion of the last 5 years or so for black or predominantly black cycling attire.

Last time i designed a team kit it had a lot of black but we went a full white back for visibility from behind.

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29 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

That's probably worthy of a thread or poll of its own.

I don't understand the fashion of the last 5 years or so for black or predominantly black cycling attire.

Totally agree paul

and the  ones usually making the most noise  about  , ffnnn drivers and the dangers of cycling are the ones in complete black out fits with no rear or front lights , riding two abreast holding up traffic 

just not doing themselves or anyone else who is still mad enough to ride on Australian roads no favours what so ever 

if you want drivers attitudes to change for the better cyclist behaviour needs to change for the better and even more importantly be seen to actually making an  effort to make things better and safer for all users 

EG , bright clothing 

bright lights , be seen 

ride single file when blocking traffic 

wave people on , and give them a friendly guesture if they do the right thing 

no more then 6 (or even 4) in a bunch that way u can go single file without any problems claimed in this thread , and also the bigger the bunch the bigger the arrogance , so the more cyclist hate it breeds 

 

black while cycling on the road  should be banned and quality bright rear lights made mandatory 

Edited by ironpo
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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

That's probably worthy of a thread or poll of its own.

I don't understand the fashion of the last 5 years or so for black or predominantly black cycling attire.

Studies show bright clothes make no difference, but as a driver, I think it can. So I'll always try to be in bright colours.

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4 hours ago, prizna said:

Qld drivers are kents. Yes all. No not a generalisation. Yes that includes my grandma.

Hey!  As a Queenslander AND a Kent I resemble that remark. 

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2 hours ago, Paul Every said:

That's probably worthy of a thread or poll of its own.

I don't understand the fashion of the last 5 years or so for black or predominantly black cycling attire.

Or cammo pattern. I've even seen that.

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41 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Or cammo pattern. I've even seen that.

 The old cannibal black and Grey cammo.

i had that kit. 

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1 hour ago, roxii said:

 The old cannibal black and Grey cammo.

i had that kit. 

Try seeing that on the road under trees in filtered light. I nearly killed someone in that exact kit one morning. You just could not see it in the shade patterns on the road.

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I don't ride the centenary motorway bike path without front and back lights flashing, I'll be damned if I'd ride on a road without flashing lights.

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What concerns me about many of the comments here is the solution proposed is to not ride at all on the roads. Yet the #1 factor in making cycling safer is increasing the number and frequency of cyclists drivers encounter on the roads.

Safety in numbers is what leads to greater awareness of and familiarity by other road users and results in better driver behaviour. 30 years ago when driving you would expect to see children on bikes in the 'burbs. Now people are not tuned into the possibility as much, so the best way forward is to have more people on bikes out there. e-bikes will play a role in this. This is the exact experience in forward thinking cities which are now heavily promoting cycling - the rest of the community is getting used to it and familiarity has improved their overall attitudes and driving behaviours.

To do just the opposite (i.e. promote getting off the roads) simply reinforces the car centricity of our society. To hear it from others who cycle just tells me how far we have fallen in our attitudes.

No one is suggesting cyclists ride on inappropriate roads or at times of day when it causes more hassle. But to simply say get off the roads altogether, well we may as well kill ourselves now because what's the point?

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7 minutes ago, Alex Simmons said:

What concerns me about many of the comments here is the solution proposed is to not ride at all on the roads. Yet the #1 factor in making cycling safer is increasing the number and frequency of cyclists drivers encounter on the roads.

Safety in numbers is what leads to greater awareness of and familiarity by other road users and results in better driver behaviour. 30 years ago when driving you would expect to see children on bikes in the 'burbs. Now people are not tuned into the possibility as much, so the best way forward is to have more people on bikes out there. e-bikes will play a role in this. This is the exact experience in forward thinking cities which are now heavily promoting cycling - the rest of the community is getting used to it and familiarity has improved their overall attitudes and driving behaviours.

To do just the opposite (i.e. promote getting off the roads) simply reinforces the car centricity of our society. To hear it from others who cycle just tells me how far we have fallen in our attitudes.

No one is suggesting cyclists ride on inappropriate roads or at times of day when it causes more hassle. But to simply say get off the roads altogether, well we may as well kill ourselves now because what's the point?

Well said, I have been trying to put together something similar but not nearly as eloquent. 

One additional advantage of having more cyclists on the road is that most drivers will know and care about a cyclist. May make them a touch more tolerant when they come across other cyclists.

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8 hours ago, Alex Simmons said:

What concerns me about many of the comments here is the solution proposed is to not ride at all on the roads. Yet the #1 factor in making cycling safer is increasing the number and frequency of cyclists drivers encounter on the roads.

Safety in numbers is what leads to greater awareness of and familiarity by other road users and results in better driver behaviour. 30 years ago when driving you would expect to see children on bikes in the 'burbs. Now people are not tuned into the possibility as much, so the best way forward is to have more people on bikes out there. e-bikes will play a role in this. This is the exact experience in forward thinking cities which are now heavily promoting cycling - the rest of the community is getting used to it and familiarity has improved their overall attitudes and driving behaviours.

To do just the opposite (i.e. promote getting off the roads) simply reinforces the car centricity of our society. To hear it from others who cycle just tells me how far we have fallen in our attitudes.

 

The issue for some cyclists is that before thr attitude change happens there will be a window where cyclist numbers increase and so will the incidents.

 

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This morning some guy aggressively honking his horn screams "I'm going to fkn kill you". Then again to my mate 30m up the road. For no other reason than we were on the road I guess #Syd Oly Park.

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2 hours ago, prizna said:

 

The issue for some cyclists is that before thr attitude change happens there will be a window where cyclist numbers increase and so will the incidents.

 

I think that's not true from the data. I'm on my phone so can't find a link now but my understanding is it's not so much about attitudes as awareness. The more bikes that are out there the more people expect to see them and sh the safer it is. That applies in both the short term and longer term (e.g. it's safest to ride n London in rush hour).

There are some twats out there but the vast majority of cycling incidents are pure inattention and incompetence on the part of drivers, not malice.

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People are on their indoor trainers for valid reasons imo.  A lot of the malicious incidents go unreported.

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34 minutes ago, Merv said:

People are on their indoor trainers for valid reasons imo.  A lot of the malicious incidents go unreported.

That comes under the 'police don't seem to give a s***' reason. When you report harassment every other week, and the drivers never even get a warning, do you continue to bother reporting (esp when you start getting the feeling from the cops that they are about to give you a fine for wasting police time/resources?)

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5 minutes ago, Cape_Horn said:

That comes under the 'police don't seem to give a s***' reason. When you report harassment every other week, and the drivers never even get a warning, do you continue to bother reporting (esp when you start getting the feeling from the cops that they are about to give you a fine for wasting police time/resources?)

Not sure if anyone is following the recent case up here with the advocate who was killed last week. Their was a letter he'd written with a number of police reports and the outcomes which were frankly scary.. police stating they don't agree with passing law so won't try and uphold it.  Despite having footage saying there is no case to answer  etc..

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2 hours ago, pieman said:

Not sure if anyone is following the recent case up here with the advocate who was killed last week. Their was a letter he'd written with a number of police reports and the outcomes which were frankly scary.. police stating they don't agree with passing law so won't try and uphold it.  Despite having footage saying there is no case to answer  etc..

Watch this space. 

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