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goughy

I don't understand.......

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........ what makes a 19 year old kid see a woman walking alone and think "I'm gonna rape and kill her"........

I don't understand.......... what makes people see a memorial to this victim and think "let's deface this memorial, it'd be cool".

What kind of ****s are out there?

My wife and I had a heated discussion after the Vic police came out with the "women need to take care" comments which gained a bit of criticism from some quarters.  My wife is firmly in that camp, that anyone should be able to go anywhere without fear.  I agree that should be the case, but the fact is it isn't!  Sometimes I just don't get this place; maybe I need to try to not understand.

Edited by goughy
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I don't like the use of linking this attack to men disrespecting women argument. it is what it is, just a sick f.....  

off topic a bit, but I read a long facebook post where some guy said we should speak up against any of our male friends who consume any music or movies that have a hint of denegrading women.  are we meant to watch Disney movies and listen to Celine Dion now? 

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I've always wondered where the line of mental illness and culpability cross.  And the other, even bigger one, when diminished responsibility due to drug usage (namely ice) comes into play.

When are people responsible for their actions, when are they not responsible?

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Yes Pete, I agree with you.  I think it's used too often.  Having a mental illness doesn't mean you're gonna do something like that.  Like what's the link between say depression and doing something like that.  They say that 1 in every 100 people a a psychopath!  That doesn't mean they're gonna go on some killing spree, just that they don't have empathy for others etc, and maybe no feelings etc.  Doesn't make them violent or anything.  

Prince, I know I was 5 when I saw my first James Bond movie.  Have watched them hundreds of times.  My wife still doesn't want Kyan to see any purely because of the attitude to women in them!  But they had zero affect on my attitudes, and my personal level of violence.  

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1 hour ago, Pete said:

I've always wondered where the line of mental illness and culpability cross.  And the other, even bigger one, when diminished responsibility due to drug usage (namely ice) comes into play.

When are people responsible for their actions, when are they not responsible?

Yep this was a sad one in Sydney, on all fronts. 

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/father-who-allegedly-stabbed-son-to-death-appears-confused-in-sydney-court/news-story/7f610cc247f2f499267c4e61b4318add

As for being drug or alcohol affected, that one is a can of worms. 

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4 hours ago, goughy said:

........ what makes a 19 year old kid see a woman walking alone and think "I'm gonna rape and kill her"........

I don't understand.......... what makes people see a memorial to this victim and think "let's deface this memorial, it'd be cool".

What kind of ****s are out there?

My wife and I had a heated discussion after the Vic police came out with the "women need to take care" comments which gained a bit of criticism from some quarters.  My wife is firmly in that camp, that anyone should be able to go anywhere without fear.  I agree that should be the case, but the fact is it isn't!  Sometimes I just don't get this place; maybe I need to try to not understand.

And I should be able to walk away from my car with a laptop sitting in open view and the keys in the ignition. But I don't. Does your wife lock the car when she's not using it? Do you have insurance against theft?  Honestly there's some warped arguments going on ATM around this subject. And just for the record I also am careful where I go at certain times. And I'm a man. 

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17 minutes ago, A2K said:

And I should be able to walk away from my car with a laptop sitting in open view and the keys in the ignition. But I don't. Does your wife lock the car when she's not using it? Do you have insurance against theft?  Honestly there's some warped arguments going on ATM around this subject. And just for the record I also am careful where I go at certain times. And I'm a man. 

.... and similar to the cycling argument, you should be able to ride on any road, however there are roads I choose not to ride on.

No point being dead right! 

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7 hours ago, goughy said:

 

  My wife is firmly in that camp, that anyone should be able to go anywhere without fear. 

of course they should, but even before this latest sick act, would you have let your wife or daughter walk home in the wee small hours these days? or in the last 5 years or so?   To me it is just not worth the risk, just as some parents won't risk having their kids walk to school these days.  so as sad as it is, I agree with the police, but by no means am I blaming the victim in this case. 

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I don't think you're meant to understand .... this case has a lot of similarities to the Adrian Bayley case from afar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jill_Meagher) (similar circumstances, location etc) and it will be interesting to see whether any of the lessons have been learned from the past.

Everyone should be able to go anywhere without fear, but I think the reality is different. That area was always dodgy when I went to Uni just down the road and there were always some suspect characters hanging around. Definitely not her fault.

Very sad. Poor woman.

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I think there's a world of difference between saying that you should take some personal responsibility for reducing your risks and suggesting that if you don't it is your own fault that something happens.  Women and everyone else in the community should be able to live their lives without having to consider such things but when bad things happen we should always look at all the circumstances that made it possible and try to reduce the risks of each.

Statements that I've heard recently like "we shouldn't be telling women to be more careful, we should be telling men not to rape and kill" are just ludicrous in their simplicity.  This didn't happen because men are rapey, kill machines.  This happened because this one man was and she was near him at the wrong place and wrong time.  Telling him to be a better human would not have stopped this.  Nobody, probably himself included for 99% of his life, believes that what he did wasn't wrong.  Telling women or any other member of the community that they shouldn't consider their own personal safety because everyone should be nice is not only unhelpful, it's irresponsible and dangerous.

You can bet your life that I do and will continue to talk to my 11 year old daughter about how she can reduce her risks of being harmed.  Rather than feeling helpless and scared I would hope that it will make her confident that she can handle any situation that she could get into.  You don't have to change the way you live your life to be careful.

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As a proud Novocastrian, this is very close to home. Last week a 47 yo man sexually assaulted a 12 yo girl on her way to school for 5 hours. How can this happen?? He has been caught and arrested thankfully. She was a very brave young girl who gave a perfect description to police.

As a father with 2 adult daughters (both have boyfriends who they go out with clubbing), I will still offer to be taxi service at any hour as I am worried about the sickos out there.

Its a strange world.

NSF

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4 minutes ago, Notsofast said:

As a father with 2 adult daughters (both have boyfriends who they go out with clubbing), I will still offer to be taxi service at any hour as I am worried about the sickos out there.

Same here. It was always a given that I'd rather receive a call to pick her up at 2am than a call at 4am from the police.

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Friggin oath.

But I still can't understand the mindset that has people think they can do this?  What the hell has a 19 year old kid been learning at home to think he can do this?  I mean his dad has come out and spoken about how appalled he is and apologised etc, but what the **** was he teaching his kid at home?

I watched a clip from a news article about an Aussie guy who got stabbed, somewhere in the Philippines or Indonesia or somewhere.  The footage showed him in a club, and he leans over a rail and pinches some girl on the butt.  He boyfriend takes offence and stabs him.  Now obviously I don't condone the stabbing.  But what the hell was going through the guys head that made him think it's ok to grab some strangers butt just because?  This is the shit I don't understand, and makes me wonder what the **** people are learning at home?

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20 minutes ago, goughy said:

Friggin oath.

But I still can't understand the mindset that has people think they can do this?  What the hell has a 19 year old kid been learning at home to think he can do this?  I mean his dad has come out and spoken about how appalled he is and apologised etc, but what the **** was he teaching his kid at home?

I watched a clip from a news article about an Aussie guy who got stabbed, somewhere in the Philippines or Indonesia or somewhere.  The footage showed him in a club, and he leans over a rail and pinches some girl on the butt.  He boyfriend takes offence and stabs him.  Now obviously I don't condone the stabbing.  But what the hell was going through the guys head that made him think it's ok to grab some strangers butt just because?  This is the shit I don't understand, and makes me wonder what the **** people are learning at home?

Young men of this generation have had open access to pornography from primary school. their idols are misogynistic rap stars, steroid freaks, and all manner of ludicrous, instafamous imbeciles. Without the right guiding hands or in the presence of parental neglect, this sort of behaviour is now normal. a local high school before schoolies week had a group of boys running a bounty on sexual acts with girls with money as the prize. the disconnect between some parents' perception of their sons, and daughters behaviour, and what happens when they are out of the home is staggering. 

I have been horrified with some of the posts I've seen on Facebook from female friends about their experiences. When I think about it, females spend a large amount of time thinking about "situational awareness" and how not to get raped, abducted or murdered. this is chilling. if they aren't getting drugged in pubs they are getting taken off the streets, or public transport etc. More females in government, less stuffy, stupid white males in charge (tampon tax anyone) could be a start. the not all men thing is a bit rich when you look objectively at how our society is balanced in real, practical terms.

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I have been together with my wife since 16 yrs old, we are now 36, I was never into night clubbing and pubs etc, so from when i had my license i always said i would pick her and her girlfriends up at any time, its not negotiable and its still this way even now, currently living here in the pilbara in a one nightclub town but a few pubs, i still will drive the two minutes to town to pick her up when shes out with her friends.  the same rules are in place for when my daughter is old enough to go out, also the same rules for my son when its his turn.

I will be there at any time to pick them up.  there are way to many sickos out there.

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Honestly, it can be guys of all ages. Some of the behaviour I have experienced on dating sites, tells me that those who are 30+ are capable of being that way too. Luckily I can block and walk away. Who knows which ones aren't just keyboard warriors?

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The behaviour of many young girls away from their parents isnt exactly innocent. 

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15 hours ago, Merv said:

The behaviour of many young girls away from their parents isnt exactly innocent. 

Very true

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15 hours ago, Merv said:

The behaviour of many young girls away from their parents isnt exactly innocent. 

I am seriously struggling to understand what this has got to do with anything?  Is this like a "they were asking for it" type comment or am I misinterpreting (hopefully)?

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1 minute ago, pieman said:

I am seriously struggling to understand what this has got to do with anything?  Is this like a "they were asking for it" type comment or am I misinterpreting (hopefully)?

No, probably a response to the comments about young guys doing things they shouldn't.

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and the behaviour of some parents away from their kids....

Edited by Prince

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

No, probably a response to the comments about young guys doing things they shouldn't.

Spot on

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19 minutes ago, pieman said:

Okay, apologies then

whew,, almost another dust up. 

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7 minutes ago, Prince said:

whew,, almost another dust up. 

Yeah narrowly avoided having to block someone...

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Yep, no aggression allowed in my thread about violence!

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2 hours ago, pieman said:

Yeah narrowly avoided having to block someone...

LOL, all good. Should have added some more commentary to explain

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I feel everyones comments with regards to causation and provention on here, in the media, social forums etc all have their own merits.

The book Tribe - by Sebastian Junger is a fascinating read into the inners workings of modern day society and how far removed we are from our evolutionary past.  Opens your eyes to how some basic primal traits left unused can really effect peoples mental states.

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One of my young female staff posted a picture on Facebook including the following quote

"If you're promoting changes to women's behaviour to "prevent" rape, you're really saying "make sure he rapes the other girl"

Discuss

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I dont think the kind of people who commit these sorts of crimes are too affected by social media campaigns or news headlines. 

Saying that we should all be telling each other that "its not OK to rape" is all well and good but Im not sure I associate with anyone who is that way inclined, nor that we move in remotely the same circles so I dont know who I tell, as much as I am willing to. 

So unfortunately all this current, well intentioned protest is probably not hitting or affecting the target market and to that end all you are left with is looking after your personal security. 

I know its not good and I know its not right but neither is trying to undo the damage if the unthinkable is to happen.  I wish the world was a different place, but its not. 

We both have daughters, we live in what should be a "nice" part of the world, but I still know what I will tell Bree about personal safety and there are things I will encourage her not to do and places not to be. 

With years of media bombardment people still drink and drive. And as much as I shouldn't have to, I still look before crossing at a pedestrian crossing.  

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47 minutes ago, Parkside said:

One of my young female staff posted a picture on Facebook including the following quote

"If you're promoting changes to women's behaviour to "prevent" rape, you're really saying "make sure he rapes the other girl"

Discuss

If you lock your house when you go to the shops you're really saying "rob the next door neighbour".

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This is what was said by a detective. 

"My message is that people need to be aware of their own personal security and just be mindful of their surroundings.”

Another policeman echoed that sentiment:

 

“This is an area of high community activity,” said local superintendent David Clayton. “So just make sure you have situational awareness, that you’re aware of your surroundings. If you’ve got a mobile phone carry it and if you’ve got any concerns, call police.”

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26 minutes ago, roxii said:

I dont think the kind of people who commit these sorts of crimes are too affected by social media campaigns or news headlines. 

Saying that we should all be telling each other that "its not OK to rape" is all well and good but Im not sure I associate with anyone who is that way inclined, nor that we move in remotely the same circles so I dont know who I tell, as much as I am willing to. 

So unfortunately all this current, well intentioned protest is probably not hitting or affecting the target market and to that end all you are left with is looking after your personal security. 

I know its not good and I know its not right but neither is trying to undo the damage if the unthinkable is to happen.  I wish the world was a different place, but its not. 

We both have daughters, we live in what should be a "nice" part of the world, but I still know what I will tell Bree about personal safety and there are things I will encourage her not to do and places not to be. 

With years of media bombardment people still drink and drive. And as much as I shouldn't have to, I still look before crossing at a pedestrian crossing.  

Exact replica of a conversation i had with my wife and mother.  Couldnt agree more.

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6 hours ago, roxii said:

I dont think the kind of people who commit these sorts of crimes are too affected by social media campaigns or news headlines. 

No but maybe the young man who sees these sorts of discussions stops making rapey jokes or blaming grog for their antisocial behaviour, and passes this behaviour onto their sons.

 

7 hours ago, roxii said:

Saying that we should all be telling each other that "its not OK to rape" is all well and good but Im not sure I associate with anyone who is that way inclined, nor that we move in remotely the same circles so I dont know who I tell, as much as I am willing to. 

I guess we treat our wives, daughters, retail and hospitality staff etc with respect so young men model that behaviour, and call out when we see people crossing the line we draw in the sand. I know I removed myself from situations with schoolmates and footy mates I wasn't comfortable with, if I showed more guts I would have told them why and that their behaviour was not right. Turning a blind eye is not much better than egging them on.

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14 minutes ago, Parkside said:

I guess we treat our wives, daughters, retail and hospitality staff etc with respect so young men model that behaviour, and call out when we see people crossing the line we draw in the sand.

I saw an email earlier this week from a woman I know resigning from a fairly senior middle management position in an organisation. She made comments about resigning rather than getting a golden handshake, as she didn't want to be gagged. She mentioned that she is that person's 5th female direct report to leave in the last few months, but his management won't listen. It gobsmacked me that there are still people getting away with that these days. I'll probably be shot down for saying it, but I honestly thought we were past it.

And if we're not. Why not!

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31 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I saw an email earlier this week from a woman I know resigning from a fairly senior middle management position in an organisation. She made comments about resigning rather than getting a golden handshake, as she didn't want to be gagged. She mentioned that she is that person's 5th female direct report to leave in the last few months, but his management won't listen. It gobsmacked me that there are still people getting away with that these days. I'll probably be shot down for saying it, but I honestly thought we were past it.

And if we're not. Why not!

I was in a similar position about 20 years ago when I was sexually harassed by my boss (yes, really ... ME!!!!) at a law firm. When it came time to quitting that job, they tried an NDA on me and I told them to go and stick it.

Fast forward 20 years and I have just advised a (male) mate who is in a similar position .... seems we haven't moved on from the caveman! 

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I saw an email earlier this week from a woman I know resigning from a fairly senior middle management position in an organisation. She made comments about resigning rather than getting a golden handshake, as she didn't want to be gagged. She mentioned that she is that person's 5th female direct report to leave in the last few months, but his management won't listen. It gobsmacked me that there are still people getting away with that these days. I'll probably be shot down for saying it, but I honestly thought we were past it.

And if we're not. Why not!

It comes down to poor sexual harassment policy possibly and a weak HR.  most organisations should be aware of the potential litigation that will result from such practices. 

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2 hours ago, Prince said:

It comes down to poor sexual harassment policy possibly and a weak HR.  most organisations should be aware of the potential litigation that will result from such practices. 

And the "eyes off the prize" approach by many internal legal functions .... Have been advising my mate recently and am damn sure that the lawyers haven't seen anything of this claim. All being buried until the flash point ....

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There seems to be a focus on women being able to feel safe.  The reality is that incidents of violence against women by people they don't know are relatively rare, dare I say it rarer than violence against men in similar circumstances (but it's probably okay for us to publicly observe that young male victims often contribute to their own situation.)

Women SHOULD feel safe out and about.  People SHOULD feel safe swimming in the ocean.  The fact that they don't has far less to do with what is actually happening and more with the perception created by making more of these situations than really we should.  Driving fifteen minutes to the nearest cafe is a far greater threat to your well-being than violence against women.  This year there have been 409 people killed driving and another 71 as pedestrian deaths that involved in car accidents.  Around 20 deaths a week.

The death of Eurydice Dixon was horrible.  It should never have happened and it should never happen to anyone else, however it wasn't a sign of any bigger problem.

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