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monkie

Data and Running Shoes

Data and running shoes...  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you struggle to find suitable running shoes when your current model is discontinued?

    • Never
      6
    • Sometimes
      21
    • Most of the time
      11
    • All of the time
      3
  2. 2. Where do you currently get shoe recommendations from?

    • Coach
      0
    • Specialist running store (e.g. RunWith)
      15
    • Chain running store (e.g. Athlete's Foot)
      5
    • Online
      14
    • Friends
      5
    • Nowhere. I just try blindly.
      2
  3. 3. Would you use a recommendation service which suggested shoes based on your shoe history?

    • Definitely not
      0
    • Maybe
      24
    • Probably
      14
    • Definitely
      3


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This is something I have been thinking about for a while... I struggle (as I'm sure many others do) to find running shoes that I go well in. When I find a make / model that suit me I buy as many of them as I can afford and keep them in the cupboard. The stress when they change a model is real!

Now I have discovered Willie it's become a lot easier as he knows what he's talking about but I'm keen to explore whether data could help us solve the problem in a more scalable way.

In the real world I am a bit of a data nerd, I spend a lot of time explaining to clients how data can help them make better decisions so I should eat my own dog food.

My belief is that if we have two people say person A had a successful shoe history of Brooks Ghost 7, Saucony Ride 9 and Saucony Ride 10 but tried a pair of Ghost 8s and hated them then Person B comes along who ran well in the Ghost 7 (which they have stopped making) should also avoid the Ghost 8s and go straight for the Ride 10s.

If we collect enough data and can validate the hypotheses above then I will be able to create a recommendation engine, along the lines of the Amazon "People who bought this also bought" but "People who ran well in those shoes also ran well in these ones".

I've created a poll to gauge some thoughts but would also love to here anything anybody thinks about the idea below.

Edited by monkie

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THIS!

Brooks keep doing this to my favorite shoes, ST4, Green Silence, ST5.

The ST4  (pic) has been the by far the best race shoe for me. I haven't been able to find a pair as good to this day. I've tried on heaps of different brands and models. Just call me Cinderella. 🙄 I was just about to consult Willie for some advice.

Currently trying a pair of TOPO ST-2s. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0878/7440/products/ST-2Green1_1024x1024.jpg?v=1503462224

They have plenty of space for my small hobbit width/style feet, and low drop. They're OK but just don't match the Brooks ST4 for fit and feel. The search goes on.

Monkie, you need another option in question 2... none, I've just tried on hundreds of pairs in the running shops.

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5 minutes ago, iFoz said:

Monkie, you need another option in question 2... none, I've just tried on hundreds of pairs in the running shops.

Done!

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I struggle to find replacements or alternatives, nit just because of model changes.

It might be the old "You can't buy that from Shop X anymore" trick or I've stacked on more weight.

My last recommendation came from a physio and ended up in a specialist store, but I usually trawl about online myself.

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Having relatively recently made a return to running “decently” (using a couple of sub 20min Park Runs as a yardstick) with quite a bit of missing natural cushioning (ie lateral and medial meniscectomy, with an ACL graft thrown in), I began being very mindful of what the cushioning in my footwear was.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, as I gradually regained all the things that go with running ok (eg consistency, stability, etc) footwear choice and surface became less of a concern with regard to discomfort.

So I’m curious if others feel like they’re less “picky” about what they’re running in when running well (subject of course to what you consider running well is)?

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6 hours ago, trilobite said:

So I’m curious if others feel like they’re less “picky” about what they’re running in when running well (subject of course to what you consider running well is)?

When I was a young fella I did a lot of off road running in Dunlop KT26's. Now I am reliant on heavily cushioned shoes like Hokas. Perhaps as we age our bodies become more "picky" about running shoes.

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I get advice from my Podiatrist who is in the loop re: different shoes and has no bias towards any brand.

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21 hours ago, iFoz said:

THIS!

Brooks keep doing this to my favorite shoes, ST4, Green Silence, ST5.

The ST4  (pic) has been the by far the best race shoe for me. I haven't been able to find a pair as good to this day. I've tried on heaps of different brands and models. Just call me Cinderella. 🙄 I was just about to consult Willie for some advice.

Currently trying a pair of TOPO ST-2s. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0878/7440/products/ST-2Green1_1024x1024.jpg?v=1503462224

They have plenty of space for my small hobbit width/style feet, and low drop. They're OK but just don't match the Brooks ST4 for fit and feel. The search goes on.

Monkie, you need another option in question 2... none, I've just tried on hundreds of pairs in the running shops.

The ST2 is Zero drop and it's more like a New Balance minimus barefoot kind of shoe. I sell em mostly to the cross fit kinda person... 

Fastwitch is similar to the ST4/5. I was peeved when Brooks stopped the T series and came out with the Hyperion, I have never been more disappointed 😢 I'll have a think, something from altra if you dont mind 0 drop (however call me and have a chat prior to this, I'll give you some food for thought about 0 drop with too much cushion).

On 12/06/2018 at 10:25 AM, monkie said:

I've created a poll to gauge some thoughts but would also love to here anything anybody thinks about the idea below.

I know we had a couple of quick messages about this but I'm still not sure how to do it or come about it. You'd need a massive sample size over years (I'd say at least 10) to even get close to having enough data. And even some shoes that are "the same model" are actually a bit different. The other issue at play is the human effect with shoes.... Then there is the fact that not a lot of people have the resource or own a running shop and cant try out all the different shoes out there (I mean I test 1 a week, probably why my body is never 100% right over the last couple of years). 

Using me as an example, this is what I like and what I am currently wearing.

Favourite shoes - Adidas Boston 6, Saucony Kinvara, Terra Kiger 3

Other favourites - Enda Iten, Saucony Freedom, Saucony Kinvara, Scetchers GoMeb Speed, New Balance 890, Nike Terra Kiger 3, Hoka Hapuna, Brooks T7, Brooks PureFlow, Adidas Adios, Nike Streak 6, New Balance 1400 and New Balance Summit Unknown.

Others that are ok - New Balance Zante V3 and V4, Asics Hyperspeed, Asics Dynaflyte... Probably more but my memory isnt that good!

 

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15 minutes ago, willie said:

 

Using me as an example, this is what I like and what I am currently wearing.

Favourite shoes - Adidas Boston 6, Saucony Kinvara, Terra Kiger 3

Other favourites - Enda Iten, Saucony Freedom, Saucony Kinvara, Scetchers GoMeb Speed, New Balance 890, Nike Terra Kiger 3, Hoka Hapuna, Brooks T7, Brooks PureFlow, Adidas Adios, Nike Streak 6, New Balance 1400 and New Balance Summit Unknown.

Others that are ok - New Balance Zante V3 and V4, Asics Hyperspeed, Asics Dynaflyte... Probably more but my memory isnt that good!

 

Okay Imelda....

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48 minutes ago, willie said:

Fastwitch is similar to the ST4/5

I just Googled them (the 8 model). They look just like ST4s. I’ll have to give them a try. Don’t know why they never hit my radar before?

Bonus even... they are in club kit colours too (black and green). Gotta get the fashion right. 😎

I’ll call for your lowdown on the low drop. 

Thanks heaps Willie. 

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1 hour ago, willie said:

The ST2 is Zero drop and it's more like a New Balance minimus barefoot kind of shoe. I sell em mostly to the cross fit kinda person... 

Fastwitch is similar to the ST4/5. I was peeved when Brooks stopped the T series and came out with the Hyperion, I have never been more disappointed 😢 I'll have a think, something from altra if you dont mind 0 drop (however call me and have a chat prior to this, I'll give you some food for thought about 0 drop with too much cushion).

I know we had a couple of quick messages about this but I'm still not sure how to do it or come about it. You'd need a massive sample size over years (I'd say at least 10) to even get close to having enough data. And even some shoes that are "the same model" are actually a bit different. The other issue at play is the human effect with shoes.... Then there is the fact that not a lot of people have the resource or own a running shop and cant try out all the different shoes out there (I mean I test 1 a week, probably why my body is never 100% right over the last couple of years). 

Using me as an example, this is what I like and what I am currently wearing.

Favourite shoes - Adidas Boston 6, Saucony Kinvara, Terra Kiger 3

Other favourites - Enda Iten, Saucony Freedom, Saucony Kinvara, Scetchers GoMeb Speed, New Balance 890, Nike Terra Kiger 3, Hoka Hapuna, Brooks T7, Brooks PureFlow, Adidas Adios, Nike Streak 6, New Balance 1400 and New Balance Summit Unknown.

Others that are ok - New Balance Zante V3 and V4, Asics Hyperspeed, Asics Dynaflyte... Probably more but my memory isnt that good!

 

Yep. It won't be easy but I reckon 100 people with a 5 year history would be a good place to start. I reckon we could get 25 from Trannies. Then Facebook groups... ST... running forums. Once I have a bit more of an idea I'll get a landing page set up to start collecting some data and then spend some spare time trying to get some bloggers etc. on board (I've reached out to ol' DC Rainmaker already). I've got a web scraped list of about 1000 shoes already as a starting point for people.

The aim would not be 100% perfection and nor would it be to replace experts like yourself, I am in awe of your shoe knowledge and skills and will definitely be pestering you for thoughts as I progress. BUT there are a vast number of people who run who have no really good advice available to them, the quality of most of the advice from mainstream running shops is terrible and gait analysis doesn't have any decent evidence behind it (not that I can find)  and if we can even point people a bit in the right direction so they can go to a shop with a set of three or so to try then that would be great and also the ability to let people know of others experience of what DOESN'T work would be valuable I reckon.

 

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Good luck to you but I think you’re creating a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist and will be made obsolete by 3D printed shoes in the near future.

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2 hours ago, monkie said:

Just a bump to try and get a few more responses... I'll only do this once :)

What responses are you after? You want people to post what shoes they have liked / currently like? Or whether this is a useful exercise?

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5 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

What responses are you after? You want people to post what shoes they have liked / currently like? Or whether this is a useful exercise?

The latter. Just need to work out whether I should spend some time on it, will then create the landing page to collect some data and annoy the hell out of y'all to get you to complete it ;)

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I think there are so many variables would be a very targeted exercise

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21 hours ago, Turts said:

I think there are so many variables would be a very targeted exercise

If we can get enough data then we can ignore the causation and just chase the correlation, the actual maths behind it is not that tricky and it is capable of dealing with incredible complex things like TV & Movie Preferences ( a la Netflix) where there are fare more options to choose from than with running shoes. But you could be absolutely right, we could collect all the data and find that there is no significant relationship between people with similar shoe histories. But that, in itself, would be fascinating!

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I think it’s a great idea, especially if you are just doing it out if interest.

i think the hardest part will be getting “current data” on new models as the uptake  of new models in big enough numbers to provide useable data may take a while.

even so there are very few truly independent comparison site for any product so true independence will be a big bonus.

hopefully it will get popular and ASICS offer you a million bucks for it so they can rig it so all answers are ASICS shoes. 

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2 hours ago, monkie said:

If we can get enough data then we can ignore the causation and just chase the correlation, the actual maths behind it is not that tricky and it is capable of dealing with incredible complex things like TV & Movie Preferences ( a la Netflix) where there are fare more options to choose from than with running shoes. But you could be absolutely right, we could collect all the data and find that there is no significant relationship between people with similar shoe histories. But that, in itself, would be fascinating!

Go for it. I'll add my info. Variables between peeps and shoes will be a big database, but I deal with bigguns too so it's a great idea.

Over in the US, a running store had a similar, but less powerful tool on their site. 

I'll try and remember the name, but probably not beneficial to you anyway as you already have the conceptual model. 

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I’ve been in Brookes Adrenalin for a decade. Not getting injured so sticking with them.

If I had to change would be a PITA but I might use something like this to point me in the right direction. I don’t do the mileage to need to get a new pair often, so it’s always a well thought out exercise. Kinda like voting, I go in with an open mind but usually come out with the same result.

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Good timing for me.  I have been a long term Asics Kayano wear.  Not sure why, but had always found them comfortable and maybe given my long distance history they suited.  The never wore out (in term of the actual shoe) and I would change over every three months or so, and would alternate between two.

The last two (both 24's) have been horrible.  The material (upper) has change and wears out much quick (hole from toe).  The whole feel of the shoe is different, it feels hard and less giving.  Most disappointed as they cost a lot - was hoping it was just a one off, but the second par has confirmed it feels the same.

Now I am moving into "sprint specialisation" (he he he) I am looking for another another option.  Something light to race in and something reasonable to train in (running around 35km a week)......

So neve had to deal with changing shoe.....any advice much appreciated. 

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44 minutes ago, skel said:

Good timing for me.  I have been a long term Asics Kayano wear.  Not sure why, but had always found them comfortable and maybe given my long distance history they suited.  The never wore out (in term of the actual shoe) and I would change over every three months or so, and would alternate between two.

The last two (both 24's) have been horrible.  The material (upper) has change and wears out much quick (hole from toe).  The whole feel of the shoe is different, it feels hard and less giving.  Most disappointed as they cost a lot - was hoping it was just a one off, but the second par has confirmed it feels the same.

Now I am moving into "sprint specialisation" (he he he) I am looking for another another option.  Something light to race in and something reasonable to train in (running around 35km a week)......

So neve had to deal with changing shoe.....any advice much appreciated. 

This is the perfect use case! We're not quite ready to go just yet although I've built a prototype of the data collecting site but I'm sure @willie will be along in a moment with some more immediate advice!

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3 hours ago, skel said:

So neve had to deal with changing shoe.....any advice much appreciated. 

Heya Skel, I will shoot you my phone number on facebook and we can have a chat!

3 hours ago, monkie said:

This is the perfect use case! We're not quite ready to go just yet although I've built a prototype of the data collecting site but I'm sure @willie will be along in a moment with some more immediate advice!

yep, this would've been a good test! We still on for tomorrow night? I've had a massive think about it and it should work. 

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1 hour ago, willie said:

yep, this would've been a good test! We still on for tomorrow night? I've had a massive think about it and it should work. 

Yep yep. I'll head down for 7 and call you when I get there 🙂

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My dream find would be a shop with a few pairs of Kayano 20's in the back room in my size, for me the best model out of most of the 25 I have worn, or it could have just a good year of running for me

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1 hour ago, James said:

My dream find would be a shop with a few pairs of Kayano 20's in the back room in my size, for me the best model out of most of the 25 I have worn, or it could have just a good year of running for me

Please share your shoe history when we're ready to go, 25 models would be very valuable!

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6 minutes ago, monkie said:

Please share your shoe history when we're ready to go, 25 models would be very valuable!

I assumed he meant 25 models of kayano...?

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8 minutes ago, pieman said:

I assumed he meant 25 models of kayano...?

That's all good! Every model is different. :)

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Yes, I meant I have worn most of the 25 models of Kayano's

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Question 2 should have multiple selections. It's called research.

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Monkie Im interested in this & willing to add some comments when youre ready but if its all on facebook that wont work for me because I dont use FB

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2 hours ago, Surfer said:

Monkie Im interested in this & willing to add some comments when youre ready but if its all on facebook that wont work for me because I dont use FB

It'll be hosted seperately, will just be pushed to get people to join in through Facebook as well as anywhere else that we can!

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i am using Hokas but worried they may disappear as they are still not sold in many places. i am not sure i can go back to Gel Nimbus now. 

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21 hours ago, Prince said:

i am using Hokas but worried they may disappear as they are still not sold in many places. i am not sure i can go back to Gel Nimbus now. 

I stock em, you just need to give me a bell and I'll get you sorted :)

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