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Peter

How to approach a duathlon (First run)

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I was thinking about the busso half being turned into a run and honestly wouldnt have been prepared for it.

As in, what pace I would have run that first 3km before jumping on the bike.

Running off the bike in my last few races I've been able to hold 4:50 on average.  Shorter events running 4:30 (for 5km)

But having a bike of 90K to follow and a 21k run as well, I'm not sure how I would have paced that first 3km run.

I'm interested on what other people would have run it as.  As in, flat out? Easy or what?

Also whats the run before an ironman if they can the swim?  10K?

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in the good old days the 90's...in NSW ...duathlons through winter were reasonably common....

Dapto Duathlon, and there was one Berrima area....geez that was cold start...

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I've never done it but I would be tempted to go close to flat out. Aiming to finish the run as out of breath as I am at the end of a 70.3 swim... For 3KM to me it's much more about "gas" than endurance as if you have the training mileage under your belt then it should affect your 21kms about 2:45 later...

 

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4 minutes ago, Shrek said:

in the good old days the 90's...in NSW ...duathlons through winter were reasonably common....

Dapto Duathlon, and there was one Berrima area....geez that was cold start...

Calga/ Peats ridge with transition at the old Oak shop/ servo. 

 

As to the question, I have never been able to run "well" cold, whether it be a straight run or a duathlon, so for me it was always just survival and minimising loss. 

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Did they do a rolling start for the Run?

If so, why did they even bother. The idea of having a run if they cancel the swim is to break the packs a little before the ride. With a rolling start that's already done.

edit to add: I'd have planned to go out at a bit quicker than my intended HIM pace, but certainly not flat out. But then once the gun went I'd have most likely been flat out. :)

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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16 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Did they do a rolling start for the Run?

 

No idea actually.  Wasn't there

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I've done Gundy a couple of times when they've broken up the run so it was swim 2k then run 3k then bike 80k then run 17k. In that first run I've gone a little quicker than my pace for the longer run. 

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I have done a lot of duathlons in the past and found that you have to hold back your ego in the first run - I've let others take 60-90sec off me in the first run and then ran away from the same guys in the second one 

I don't think there's a whole lot of strategy going on once that gun goes off - once you load yourself up with lactic acid early in an event that is going for 3-4hrs, you pay the price later  

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

I was thinking about the busso half being turned into a run and honestly wouldnt have been prepared for it.

As in, what pace I would have run that first 3km before jumping on the bike.

Running off the bike in my last few races I've been able to hold 4:50 on average.  Shorter events running 4:30 (for 5km)

But having a bike of 90K to follow and a 21k run as well, I'm not sure how I would have paced that first 3km run.

I'm interested on what other people would have run it as.  As in, flat out? Easy or what?

Also whats the run before an ironman if they can the swim?  10K?

 

I ran 4min pace for the 3km, so just a notch down from flat out. I think if I'd gone flat out that could have slowed me in transition and first bit of the bike. As it was that pace seemed to be in line with how I'd be after a swim and run up the beach. 

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Did they do a rolling start for the Run?

If so, why did they even bother. The idea of having a run if they cancel the swim is to break the packs a little before the ride. With a rolling start that's already done.

edit to add: I'd have planned to go out at a bit quicker than my intended HIM pace, but certainly not flat out. But then once the gun went I'd have most likely been flat out. :)

Yup rolling start of 4 or 5 still in age group waves though. 

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6 minutes ago, zed said:

Yup rolling start of 4 or 5 still in age group waves though. 

Was the swim to be a rolling start or age group wave starts?

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3 minutes ago, Peter said:

Was the swim to be a rolling start or age group wave starts?

Nah age group wave starts. But December will be rolling for both the full and 70.3. If there is a swim. BTW feel free to ask me any duathlon questions, I've done more duathlons this season than triathlons and am now a bit of an authority on the sport. 

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Im in the 60 to 64 and we started with everybody 55 plus as a group.

I was first off in that wave and ran steady but comfortably hard at 4.25 k pace and as ZED said didn't want to be shattered getting on the bike.

That pace was fine as most of the guys in my group who are competitive ran within a few seconds of each other.

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3 hours ago, zed said:

If there is a swim. BTW feel free to ask me any duathlon questions, I've done more duathlons this season than triathlons and am now a bit of an authority on the sport. 

Do you do running hill repeats in the rain?

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6 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Do you do running hill repeats in the rain?

I like getting caught in the rain

And pina coladas

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In the real olden days there was a ride ‘n’ stride series at Penrith featuring the likes of Welchy, Spot Anderson and even Uncle Stu

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5 minutes ago, batman said:

and even Uncle Stu

There's a name from the past.

My mate Angus & I drove up to Airlie Beach for a State Series race and gave him a lift. Nice guy, and we had a good weekend, but it was the stupidest thing we ever did. I came 2nd & Angus came 3rd, and the bastard Stu beat us.

We should have left him on the side of the road somewhere north of Marlborough.

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18 hours ago, Bored@work said:

& the colour red

I'm actually more partial to blue

But why start getting things right, eh?

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Last time I saw Uncle Stu was in a Stradbroke Idland race about 1990, he didn’t win but was close, he would have been fortyish by then. Aldo saw him push a young Miles Stewart in Kingscliffe about the same time

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22 hours ago, Triatx said:

Im in the 60 to 64 and we started with everybody 55 plus as a group.

I was first off in that wave and ran steady but comfortably hard at 4.25 k pace and as ZED said didn't want to be shattered getting on the bike.

That pace was fine as most of the guys in my group who are competitive ran within a few seconds of each other.

How was your race mate?

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Not as good as id hoped as I considered that I could win again.,But no excuses id done the work but wasent good enough on the day.

I lead off the bike but faded to finish 4th .Ran 10 mins slower than I usually do,a lesson of sorts I guess.

The guys in my age group are all strong and can never be discounted.

Roll on next season !!Next up Bali OD in October.

You had an ok day by the look of your result.

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6 minutes ago, Triatx said:

Not as good as id hoped as I considered that I could win again.,But no excuses id done the work but wasent good enough on the day.

I lead off the bike but faded to finish 4th .Ran 10 mins slower than I usually do,a lesson of sorts I guess.

The guys in my age group are all strong and can never be discounted.

Roll on next season !!Next up Bali OD in October.

You had an ok day by the look of your result.

yeah no swim means I'm never going to get close to the podium. TBH even if there was a swim, I reckon 7th/8th would have been a realistic finish position. Disappointed with the run. I've worked hard on that and I know the wind was shit and most struggled, but still I wanted to get a good run split! I didn't pace it that well. Running back into the wind was hard, but I managed to draft behind guy crawford, thing is he was going too quick, I stayed with him for the first lap. It was either run quick behind him, sheltered from the wind or run into the wind much slower.. so I probably overcooked it on lap 1. I felt good on the bike though. 

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Haven't done a long duathlon but I ran my fastest 5km this year at one (5.25km actually). My first run was 20.19 ( second was 21.57).

The closest I've gotten on a straight 5km park Run this year is 20.47.

I either went too hard at the duathlon or don't go hard enough at park Run. :lol:

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2 hours ago, FatPom said:

I either went too hard at the duathlon or don't go hard enough at park Run. 

Or IM measured the duathlon course.

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2 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Or IM measured the duathlon course.

As per post, course measured long.

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Bumping this... I have a duathlon tomorrow in the Olympic park (although I've been travelling for the last 30 hours to get home so right now I have no idea which way is up... racing will be interesting).

It's just a sprint so 5km, 20km, 2.5km.... what should pacing be?

Flat out for a 5km would be a time of about 18:00... I was thinking of aiming for 4:00s for the first and then give it everything for the bike and the second run?

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3 minutes ago, monkie said:

Bumping this... I have a duathlon tomorrow in the Olympic park (although I've been travelling for the last 30 hours to get home so right now I have no idea which way is up... racing will be interesting).

It's just a sprint so 5km, 20km, 2.5km.... what should pacing be?

Flat out for a 5km would be a time of about 18:00... I was thinking of aiming for 4:00s for the first and then give it everything for the bike and the second run?

Sounds like a solid plan

I'll be trying to do likewise and not burn all my candles in the first 1k like I have too often in the past

I'll keep an eye out for your hat.  Anyone else heading out?

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No expert here however if the bike course is flat I’d be riding in my running shoes.  The time saved in transition would be worth it.  Also I always aim for a negative split on the run.  That slight bit of conserved energy on the first run pays off in the final 2.5km 

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1 hour ago, Cat Lady said:

No expert here however if the bike course is flat I’d be riding in my running shoes.  The time saved in transition would be worth it.  Also I always aim for a negative split on the run.  That slight bit of conserved energy on the first run pays off in the final 2.5km 

Nah, definitely bike shoes for 20km.

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

Sounds like a solid plan

I'll be trying to do likewise and not burn all my candles in the first 1k like I have too often in the past

I'll keep an eye out for your hat.  Anyone else heading out?

I'm there will be in a NSTC kit, fat guy riding a road bike with clip ons and running slowly

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1 hour ago, Cat Lady said:

No expert here however if the bike course is flat I’d be riding in my running shoes.  The time saved in transition would be worth it.  Also I always aim for a negative split on the run.  That slight bit of conserved energy on the first run pays off in the final 2.5km 

I did that by accident a couple of weeks ago, wrong cleat/pedal combination after doing a draft legal race in my tri shoes. My transitions were great! But my feet kept slipping off the pedals and I had a few SMP moments. You would want to make sure you have flat pedals and toe clips if you're going to do it... Still don't know how much difference it made to my ride but I'd guess I lost more more than I gained 

 

 

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3 hours ago, monkie said:

Bumping this... I have a duathlon tomorrow in the Olympic park (although I've been travelling for the last 30 hours to get home so right now I have no idea which way is up... racing will be interesting).

It's just a sprint so 5km, 20km, 2.5km.... what should pacing be?

Flat out for a 5km would be a time of about 18:00... I was thinking of aiming for 4:00s for the first and then give it everything for the bike and the second run?

Can’t advise on running as you are too fast for me but can advise using elastic laces if you aren’t already?  Also, with your  bike shoes, not sure what type you have but if they arent on your pedals then make sure you don’t waste time doing up all the fasteners. Practice having them semi tightened but loose enough that you can get you feet in.

For example, I use SWorks shoes with two Boas, I had my shoes ready in a way I only needed to totghten the top one fully and had the wires looked around the catch, ready to go.

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Is it draft legal? If so, with your run ability just do what you have to to hold with pack. If not, you are a 4.11 pace stand alone marathon, I wouldn’t be much more than that for first run, plenty of run in second run leg if under cooked it by 40-50 seconds. My one and only- planned to run 4.10 pace, occasion go the better of me and ran well under. I was gone 5-6km into ride. 

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On 09/05/2018 at 8:37 AM, Peter said:

Also whats the run before an ironman if they can the swim?  10K?

IM Korea 2006 turned into a Duathlon known the day before race (water quality) and had a 10k run as the start.  It was a month or so after IM NZ turned into a bike/run.  Brett Woods did IM NZ and rocked up to Korea as a follow up race.  He's a swimmer and was shattered.

To another question in the thread, if it were a half IM and they made a 3k run, I think a strategy is run quite solid but not threshold as a few posters have said.  Also, if it was known, I'd have done 3k before hand warm up very slow.

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On 09/05/2018 at 9:23 AM, roxii said:

Calga/ Peats ridge with transition at the old Oak shop/ servo. 

 

As to the question, I have never been able to run "well" cold, whether it be a straight run or a duathlon, so for me it was always just survival and minimising loss. 

Roxy, I still ride up there and beyond. It’s my ‘go to’ Ironman training ride.

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On 09/05/2018 at 12:23 AM, roxii said:

Calga/ Peats ridge with transition at the old Oak shop/ servo. 

 

As to the question, I have never been able to run "well" cold, whether it be a straight run or a duathlon, so for me it was always just survival and minimising loss. 

Yeah but you’re the guy that would put an ice cream in the oven to warm it up a bit.:lol:

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Had a reasonable morning all things considered (mainly jet lag and 4.5 hours sleep, getting the excuses in early).

The bike course was twisty! 12 turnarounds and 8 x 90 degree left bends in the wet... given my bike handling is not the best and I was on my TT I reckoned to hold back a bit more on the bike and give it a bit more on the runs.

First run was around 18:45... can't be quite sure as I failed to hit my watch properly and the only split from the results is R1 + T1 which was 19:33. Next time I'll have elastic races!

Bike started badly, within 200m of T1 I launched my aero bottle, had to stop to retrieve it but it had all emptied so I did the rest of the race with no water. Hey ho. Cracked on. Making the most of whatever straights there were and managed to pick off quite a few folk but burnt a lot of energy + time slowing down to turn less than every KM  😞. Total bike 36:34

Second run hurt but it's only short, anyone can hurt for 2.5km. Average pace was 3:51, didn't feel like I had much else left in that tank. I ended up 12/36 in age category so just about OK with that.

A good fun local jaunt out though, glad I went and learnt about the value of a second water bottle!

 

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I had fun morning out.

My pace was the same for the first and second runs, not planned or even looked at during the runs. Just ran.

Bike was fun, bit nervous with damp conditions. On the last 2 laps one other guy and i passed each other about 10 times at least. I would go past on the straights and brake early to slow more, he would pass me on the corner or just out of the corner. Added to the fun.

Very good well run event that deserves more support from Sydney athletes

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3 hours ago, rory-dognz said:

Bike was fun, bit nervous with damp conditions. On the last 2 laps one other guy and i passed each other about 10 times at least. I would go past on the straights and brake early to slow more, he would pass me on the corner or just out of the corner. Added to the fun.

Yup! I had exactly this! Two guys on roadies (one in blue and one in red) and me made a bit of a race of it, they would take me on the corners and I would then mash it on the straight and get ahead, we stuck together into transition. They got out before me but I had the satisfaction of leaving them for dust 200m into the run :D Like you said, made it more fun!

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