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Peter

IAAF Rules to Limit Testosterone Levels for Female Runners

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They may as well have called it Casters law, it doesn't really affect anyone else as far as I'm aware.

Maybe she can now claim it as a disability and dominate the Paralympics. 

Not sure how they should handle this situation but there needs to be some sort of summit on this sort of thing with the advent of trans athletes also coming into womens competitions. 

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Yeah the difference in build and stature between Caster and her competitors was stark. She shouldn't be racing against women, she has an unfair advantage. 

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36 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah the difference in build and stature between Caster and her competitors was stark. She shouldn't be racing against women, she has an unfair advantage. 

So who does she race against?  The men? 

There is a 13 second different time between men and women over 800 mtrs.

She has female bits, so for me, she races the females.

 

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It's a complex issue.

While athletics (and other sport) is neatly delineated into male and female, the biology of sex determination isn't nearly as clearly defined.

There was a lively and interesting thread on Cool Running quite a few years back, early on in Caster's international career. A non-runner joined the discussion, who IIRC was an intersex individual, which made for some well-informed and thought-provoking insights.

World record holders are always going to be genetic outliers whose genes enable them extraordinarily well adapted for a particular event. When those genes express in ways that blur society's convenient descriptors of what it means to be male and female, it does become controversial and, to some, unsettling.

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52 minutes ago, zed said:

Yeah the difference in build and stature between Caster and her competitors was stark. She shouldn't be racing against women, she has an unfair advantage. 

What a load of shit.

Serena v Sharapova..... Serena v anyone but Venus

You gonna say Serena shouldn't be there?

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2 hours ago, roxii said:

They may as well have called it Casters law, it doesn't really affect anyone else as far as I'm aware.

 

It would have wiped out the whole podium in the women's 800m at the last Olympics.

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Yeah the difference in build and stature between Caster and her competitors was stark. She shouldn't be racing against women, she has an unfair advantage. 

Very complex issue.


Do you think Kenyans shouldn't run Marathon because they have a genetic advantage?

Usain Bolt had a longer stride than any of his competitors during his reign, should he have been ruled out?

Chris Froome has asthma so he can take medicine.... wait.....

 

 

I dont have an answer, but just watched a doco on netflix that covered the issue, and it is far far more complex than I ever gave it credit.

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What is the doco?

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32 minutes ago, The new guy said:

Very complex issue.


Do you think Kenyans shouldn't run Marathon because they have a genetic advantage?

Usain Bolt had a longer stride than any of his competitors during his reign, should he have been ruled out?

Chris Froome has asthma so he can take medicine.... wait.....

 

 

I dont have an answer, but just watched a doco on netflix that covered the issue, and it is far far more complex than I ever gave it credit.

On the face of it though and very superficially these athletes all look like their competition.

If you were unaware of Caster and had to place her in a race would you place her in the males or females race? 

imgb19d3a1457060e770b2dfb39c28e2b0f44dc8e0a.jpg

 

part of this I believe is because as a society we are more accepting of difference, in previous generations these people would have probably stayed as far away from the spotlight as possible. Now we are becoming more accepting we also have to find better ways of dealing with these issues. Its a tough one.  Do you draw a line, and if so where??  Do different sports require different rules? 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

So who does she race against?  The men? 

There is a 13 second different time between men and women over 800 mtrs.

She has female bits, so for me, she races the females.

 

The presence of a vagina is immaterial.She has no womb, she can't have children, she's tall, muscular, with a deep voice and more importantly her testosterone level is 3 x higher than most female athletes. It's shit for athletics. Sucks for her, but she should be racing men. I don't even think she's running at full pace when she's racing. She looks like she's out for a training run and she's probably smart enough to know not to win by too big a margin. 

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I wasn't born with a vagina, but my Mum dressed me as a girl till the age of 13, so this story really resonates with me. 

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Transgender and the semenya/2nd/3rd in women's 800m@rio are different.

The semenya situation is a difficult one having external female genetalia and an internal set of testicals given its a natural though unusual occurrence.

 

The transgender one is just bullshit, seems more over the top PC and inclusion to appease this vs what appears to be an unfair advantage. Then again maybe having moved away from Melbourne and now being mid 30's, white, male and a wueenslander I'm just out of touch...

 

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2 minutes ago, Ruley said:

Transgender and the semenya/2nd/3rd in women's 800m@rio are different.

The semenya situation is a difficult one having external female genetalia and an internal set of testicals given its a natural though unusual occurrence.

 

The transgender one is just bullshit, seems more over the top PC and inclusion to appease this vs what appears to be an unfair advantage. Then again maybe having moved away from Melbourne and now being mid 30's, white, male and a wueenslander I'm just out of touch...

 

Can you play the banjo yet? 

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This from an article I read I the Guardian today:

However Bermon insists the issue was more prevalent than is realised. “We have a lot of athletes with this kind of condition. It is not just the one or two people you hear about in the media. In elite female athletics the number of intersex athletes is 140 times more than what you might find in the normal female population.”

Nevertheless it remains a difficult and sensitive issue, and Semenya has born the brunt of it since she burst on to the world stage as a shy 18-year-old by winning the 800m at the 2009 world championships. That led to gender tests that were never made public but were alleged, according to Australia’s Daily Telegraph, to show she had no womb or ovaries but had internal testes.

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I got a parkrun email today about a transgender runner.  According to her, she has lost a lot of muscle mass, strength and speed since starting on the meds that suppresses testosterone.  So maybe this testosterone limit is a good thing for a more level playing field.  Seems the fairest I've heard thus far...

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5 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I got a parkrun email today about a transgender runner.  According to her, she has lost a lot of muscle mass, strength and speed since starting on the meds that suppresses testosterone.  So maybe this testosterone limit is a good thing for a more level playing field.  Seems the fairest I've heard thus far...

Its one of the reasons I’ve never gone sub 10. Not enough testosterone.  

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

Its one of the reasons I’ve never gone sub 10. Not enough testosterone.  

In endurance sports men with low testosterone can do very well. In fact, high testosterone could be a disadvantage due to larger mascle mass and the tendency to do too much high intensity work in training while dodging the long slow aerobic miles that high testosterone guys need to be good at endurance.

Very timely thread we just had a workshop in LGBT(XYZetc.) issues at work. The guy who conducted the workshop was born a woman and was going through gender transition to become a man. Was on hormone therapy and was a sprouting a little beard but hadn't had surgery yet. We spoke about the difficulty trans gender people have with sport. He's love to play football in a men's team but knows it would be physically dangerous for him as he will never be as strong as a man. Plus, he said taking his shirt off in the changing rooms would cause  him too much stress as he clearly looks very different from a naturally born man.

Edited by The Customer

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4 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I got a parkrun email today about a transgender runner.  According to her, she has lost a lot of muscle mass, strength and speed since starting on the meds that suppresses testosterone.  So maybe this testosterone limit is a good thing for a more level playing field.  Seems the fairest I've heard thus far...

She works at my work. Much controversy over which bathroom she should be using in the bike room.

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Which gender does a transgender police officer do a strip search on? Serious question

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20 minutes ago, mhvh said:

Which gender does a transgender police officer do a strip search on? Serious question

You're a cop, do tell.....

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17 hours ago, goughy said:

What is the doco?

Sports on fire. It's a series that covers big topics in the history of sport - doping, Munich, gender testing etc.

I wouldn't say it was super high quality, but that episode was enlightening. 

For instance, there was an athlete banned on the 'high testosterone' platform, but it was found that while she produced high levels, part of her genetic makeup meant that no testosterone produced was actually able to be absorbed, therefore was actually at a performance disadvantage. But the test model had her banned.

It also touched on the mental aspect of someone who had always thought themselves as a female suddenly being informed they are too male. And also the mental side of the physical 'image' of looking more masculine than other women. Remember, not every female athlete goes though these tests, it uses the whistleblower technique to highlight suspicion, then history has produced some very invasive testing to try and find a reason for that appearance.

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IM Talk had a heated discussion topic on their Facebook page on transgender athletes in Triathlon. A transgender athlete posted in it. It is worth reading to get both points of view.

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12 hours ago, AA7 said:

You're a cop, do tell.....

I've got no idea

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But when society doesn't keep scores or records any more and everyone gets participation medals, does it matter what sex they are, or whether we even have categories based on sex at all?

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On 27/04/2018 at 11:15 AM, prizna said:

 

What a load of shit.

Serena v Sharapova..... Serena v anyone but Venus

You gonna say Serena shouldn't be there?

Relative size doesn’t seem to have been a problem for Roger Federer???

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ppl pushing for "let 'me run in whatever race they want" seem to focus on the "current testosterone level" issue but really if someone has had the "advantage of a male hormonal balance for 30 years then on top of the geometrical differences derived from the (sex-linked) genetics (eg in general hip angle more conducive to running etc) they have also had the muscular/skeletal developmental environment (if you are stronger and faster your connective tissues and bones tend to acclimate as well). These things don't just go away in a couple of weeks after a form gets signed saying gender change performed (some of these athletes were full on male for 30 odd years...).

Perhaps a more legitimate response would be the creation of category X for M - > F transitioned people. 

Life may not allways seem fair (I suck at ball sports because I'm dyslexic for instance (and that was a real prob in a private school culture in the '70's), and now I cant read the pace clock at the pool cz my eyesight is not what it used to be etc etc - I'm good far another 16 pages on wy life sucks sometimes).

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I read an article about this and it stated that  women have a testosterone level of 0.5 to 1.9. males range from 10 to 58. Some DSD ppl can have levels higher than the 58, so higher than men. The rules will require females to be under 5.0 so this still allows them to be from over 2x higher than the highest women and up to 10x higher than some women. I believe other than creating a new category for transgender and DSD athletes this is the only other option. All elite athletes should be having regular blood screening by their national ADA, and WADA once at an international level anyway, so it isn't really anymore of an imposition unless the levels aren't within the allowed levels.

 

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I think the level was 10 before CAS overturned the rule. I can't seem to find any reference to it anywhere though. If that is correct, it will virtually wipe out Semenya's reign, as she was significantly slower when racing with that level, and would likely be even slower at the further reduced level. 

Her other option though is to move up to 5,000m, or down to 200m, as the new rule will only apply to 400m - 1600m.

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I think the level was 10 before CAS overturned the rule. I can't seem to find any reference to it anywhere though. If that is correct, it will virtually wipe out Semenya's reign, as she was significantly slower when racing with that level, and would likely be even slower at the further reduced level. 

Her other option though is to move up to 5,000m, or down to 200m, as the new rule will only apply to 400m - 1600m.

Yes it was 10, equal to many men, and so far beyond any female. This rule isn't just about Semenya but also about protecting female athletes and generations of young males from the possibility of genital mutilation to win races. Don't bother trying to say that is unlikely to happen, I imagine already has. Think about some of the awful things that have happened to young athletes in the past, this would be just another.

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13 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Maria Mutloa ran around as fast as Caster

That's like fishing with a drift net...

Wonder what it is with women's 800m???

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13 hours ago, Ruley said:

That's like fishing with a drift net...

Wonder what it is with women's 800m???

I used to like Gail Devers, flo Jo and Ottey. Mutloa could run

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17 hours ago, beaten said:

I read an article about this and it stated that  women have a testosterone level of 0.5 to 1.9. males range from 10 to 58. Some DSD ppl can have levels higher than the 58, so higher than men. The rules will require females to be under 5.0 so this still allows them to be from over 2x higher than the highest women and up to 10x higher than some women. I believe other than creating a new category for transgender and DSD athletes this is the only other option. All elite athletes should be having regular blood screening by their national ADA, and WADA once at an international level anyway, so it isn't really anymore of an imposition unless the levels aren't within the allowed levels.

 

I founds this:

  • Women normal - Pre-menopausal = 10-70 ng/dL (0.35-2.43 nmol/L) - so the IAAF limit of 5nmol/L seems quite generous?
  • Men normal - 
  • 20 to 39 years = 270-1,080 ng/dL (9.00-37.48 nmol/L)
  • 40 to 59 years = 350-890 ng/dL (12.15-30.88 nmol/ L)
  • 60 years and older = 350-720 ng/dL (12.15-24.98 nmol/L)

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Well there you go, when the level was previously lowered to 10 it was still purely in the male level domain, no where near a female level. Particularly as the larger number of high performing males are in the first age bracket. 5 is still a very generous number and it should be enforced across all sports, (I don't class the pure skill sports of shooting etc here)not just those few middle distance events that were tested. Looking at comparisons between all world records the female times are no where near the men's and to help protect the integrity of women's sport, and protect athletes into the future this rule should be applied further.

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On 27/04/2018 at 3:56 PM, BogFrog said:

I got a parkrun email today about a transgender runner.  According to her, she has lost a lot of muscle mass, strength and speed since starting on the meds that suppresses testosterone.  So maybe this testosterone limit is a good thing for a more level playing field.  Seems the fairest I've heard thus far...

Yes, can't recall, might have been Background Briefing on ABC radio covered the issue of transgender athletes once the transformation is complete they do not appear to have been given any advantage by having trained previously while being a male.

Castor Semenya's case is not a transgender issue in any case, her's is a case of androgeny, so let's at least keep them separate. Any testosterone at least is naturally produced by her body. Regardless her times are not close to the men's. I really think she needs to get rid of the semen in her name, surely it's not helping.

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Interesting thread on the logic behind the new rules starting here:

 

 

 

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