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Is Ironman Busso Doomed?

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4 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

Lake Leschenaultia? That would be a hilly bike ride and a trail run? 

With Challenge Wanaka no longer a full, need one of these

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Albany is a beautiful spot, they have a half there that has never really taken off, but if it was marketed correctly it would be awesome. They could do the bike route down Frenchman's bay road, a very scenic coastal road, devoid of traffic with a few hills. The water in Middleton beach is normally crystal clear and there is a 10km bike path running parallel to the beach. The only issue with the half is the bike route, it goes up this shitty old country road which has more traffic than the coastal route.  I got the impression they got little support from TWA/Trievents, similarly with other smaller races. 

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7 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Back in the 80's Lake Leschenaultia was the season opener. @#$% the water was cold.

Perfect justification for a wetsuit 

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4 hours ago, zed said:

Albany is a beautiful spot, they have a half there that has never really taken off, but if it was marketed correctly it would be awesome. They could do the bike route down Frenchman's bay road, a very scenic coastal road, devoid of traffic with a few hills. The water in Middleton beach is normally crystal clear and there is a 10km bike path running parallel to the beach. The only issue with the half is the bike route, it goes up this shitty old country road which has more traffic than the coastal route.  I got the impression they got little support from TWA/Trievents, similarly with other smaller races. 

4:45 drive. 

Sounds reasonable. 

 

What does @Tritrx think? 

 

*I think that's the TWA guys user name is 🤔

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Zed, I thought the same about Albany when I passed thru there on a motorbike trip 18 months ago. We spent a few days exploring the surrounding area and my impression was that it would be a great spot for a race. Only draw back was accessibility by air, rail and road. 

That coastal road would be a sensational ride on a fine day. 

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17 hours ago, zed said:

Hopefully this is indicative of how we manage human/shark interactions in the future.

I do like how the article obfuscates and uses euphemisms to avoid mentioning the S word for as long as possible.

Thanks for the link.

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Its great to see them reacting and making changes - but this doesn't appear to be any kind of deterrent to 'shark like' species. It seems like its going along the helicopter and drone line that its making it even easier to detect sharks in the area, which has led to the increase in cancellations.

From a business point of view, the organisers have to do everything possible to stop the possibility of a shark attack, for sponsorship/entries/insurance reasons, regardless of if some people on here decide they would 'take the risk'. 


The real advancements will come off the responses to the information that this clever bouy will deliver.

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So you are worried about sharks and think moving the race to Albany is a good idea ? 

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2 hours ago, The new guy said:

Its great to see them reacting and making changes - but this doesn't appear to be any kind of deterrent to 'shark like' species. It seems like its going along the helicopter and drone line that its making it even easier to detect sharks in the area, which has led to the increase in cancellations.

From a business point of view, the organisers have to do everything possible to stop the possibility of a shark attack, for sponsorship/entries/insurance reasons, regardless of if some people on here decide they would 'take the risk'. 


The real advancements will come off the responses to the information that this clever bouy will deliver.

My thoughts exactly.  We don't want to search for sharks, because we're going to find them. Get rid of the helicopter, drones and any other technology that actually detects sharks. 

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6 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

Alice Springs 70.3

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36 minutes ago, zed said:

My thoughts exactly.  We don't want to search for sharks, because we're going to find them. Get rid of the helicopter, drones and any other technology that actually detects sharks. 

But that will never actually happen.  Now there is a precedence for shark sightings at these events, insurers will put demands in place to have systems like this for detection in place.

If I was a sponsor looking to promote via Ironman, specifically Busso, I would be asking big questions about what systems were in place for shark issues before I signed up. If the answer was - 'we got rid of the detection systems, because if we dont know the sharks are there we will be ok' then I would be running for the hills.

No insurer or sponsor wants to be exposed to potential issues like that. The issue has now been raised loud and clear after Busso/Rotto/Margret River cancellations.

 

So now that the detection systems are in place, the results need to be acted upon correctly - once a shark is detected on this clever bouy, what happens?

- a fleet of RIBs converge on the area to drive the shark away from the event area

-underwater alarms sound to distract/remove shark form area

-start waves delayed until area clear

etc etc

 

Detection systems are a reality now, the reaction to the detection is the next key step to be taken.

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So true from The New Guy.

As athletes, so many of us only look at it these issues from the competitors' perspective.

A race organiser has to satisfy the often conflicting and competing demands of insurers and risk management, sanctioning authorities, police, councils, land holders, sponsors, medical and safety services, and numerous other stake holders.

The number of times over the years I've heard well-meaning athletes say "Why don't you.....?", assuming it's a novel suggestion and not something that hasn't been long since considered, explored and thrown in the large and overflowing basket of useless ideas.

Occasionally, you do get a really good suggestion, often more a refinement or an update. Most of those come from those who are athletes and race organisers themselves, or those who worked or volunteered with the race and have a good understanding of the logistics.

Edited by Paul Every
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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

So true from The New Guy.

As athletes, so many of us only look at it these issues from the competitors' perspective.

A race organiser has to satisfy the often conflicting and competing demands of insurers and risk management, sanctioning authorities, police, councils, land holders, sponsors, medical and safety services, and numerous other stake holders.

 

But where is the risk management or risk analysis. 1 shark attack in 40+ years of OWS and triathlon and that wasn't even fatal. 0.0000001% chance of getting attacked by a shark during a race. The race director is the last person who should be making the call on whether to can the swim, because if there is an attack he goes to jail. A 1m reef shark rocks up, he's going to be jumping up and down pulling swimmers out the water, because his life is on the line. It's impossible for him to make an objective, practical and sensible decision. He's got everything to lose.  All I expect is sensible decision making. We had an OWS cancelled because a 5m Great White was gnawing on a marker buoy - I have no problem with that decision. If RDs are going to do risk analysis do it properly. Hillarys sprint is a classic example, 2 years on the trot we had wet, windy weather. 5 people were hospitalised after coming off the bike at a notorious bike, the swim was cut short because it wasn't safe(?) you either cancel it or don't. Irrespectively no-one drowned or needed rescuing. The following year, similar conditions, swim got cancelled, bike went ahead, same deal more people came off the bike and were hospitalised. Taking my competitors hat off, that makes no sense at all, especially when round the corner 8/9 year olds were competing in surf life saving races. 

Let the RD make the call, but remove him from any culpability if something goes wrong.

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49 minutes ago, zed said:

But where is the risk management or risk analysis. 1 shark attack in 40+ years of OWS and triathlon and that wasn't even fatal. 0.0000001% chance of getting attacked by a shark during a race. The race director is the last person who should be making the call on whether to can the swim, because if there is an attack he goes to jail. A 1m reef shark rocks up, he's going to be jumping up and down pulling swimmers out the water, because his life is on the line. It's impossible for him to make an objective, practical and sensible decision. He's got everything to lose.  All I expect is sensible decision making. We had an OWS cancelled because a 5m Great White was gnawing on a marker buoy - I have no problem with that decision. If RDs are going to do risk analysis do it properly. Hillarys sprint is a classic example, 2 years on the trot we had wet, windy weather. 5 people were hospitalised after coming off the bike at a notorious bike, the swim was cut short because it wasn't safe(?) you either cancel it or don't. Irrespectively no-one drowned or needed rescuing. The following year, similar conditions, swim got cancelled, bike went ahead, same deal more people came off the bike and were hospitalised. Taking my competitors hat off, that makes no sense at all, especially when round the corner 8/9 year olds were competing in surf life saving races. 

Let the RD make the call, but remove him from any culpability if something goes wrong.

I'm not going to defend every decision made by every RD, especially in hypothetical cases. I wasn't there, let alone involved in the decision making processes.

What I am saying that as an RD, the decisions are more complex than most athletes realise.

I became an RD after close to a quarter of century of competing. At the time I had raced hundreds of tris, well over 100 ultras, not sure how many marathons, halves, shorter races, been on committees of running clubs and associations, national selector......but being an RD was still a learning experience involving far more than I anticipated.

You ask where is the risk management? Events don't even get insured, obtain police approval, council approvals without comprehensive Risk Management Plans.

Risk management analysis considers not only frequency of an event occurring, but also the worst possible consequences should that event occur. eg bike crashes on a slippery road may score lower on an analysis than a shark bite, despite the former being way more likely.

An RD should be involved in such decisions, precisely because it is his/her livelihood/future on the line because the race is their responsibility. It's patently unreasonable to suggest that someone else should be able to make a negligent decision and an RD has to suffer the legal, financial and whatever other culpability involved with that decision.

And if you remove an RD from ultimate responsibility, who does that responsibility then fall upon?

An experienced and capable RD is ideally positioned to make a reasonable, rational and well-considered decision. They do so in races all the time. Sometimes that decision will involve consultation with medics, safety officers, police, emergency services, other race staff, etc. As an RD, that why it's wise to surround yourself with intelligent people, experienced in their specific roles.

No sensible RD is going to cancel an event for a 1 metre reef shark.

 

Edited by Paul Every

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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

I'm not going to defend every decision made by every RD, especially in hypothetical cases. I wasn't there, let alone involved in the decision making processes.

What I am saying that as an RD, the decisions are more complex than most athletes realise.

I became an RD after close to a quarter of century of competing. At the time I had raced hundreds of tris, well over 100 ultras, not sure how many marathons, halves, shorter races, been on committees of running clubs and associations, national selector......but being an RD was still a learning experience involving far more than I anticipated.

You ask where is the risk management? Events don't even get insured, obtain police approval, council approvals without comprehensive Risk Management Plans.

Risk management analysis considers not only frequency of an event occurring, but also the worst possible consequences should that event occur. eg bike crashes on a slippery road may score lower on an analysis than a shark bite, despite the former being way more likely.

An RD should be involved in such decisions, precisely because it is his/her livelihood/future on the line because the race is their responsibility. It's patently unreasonable to suggest that someone else should be able to make a negligent decision and an RD has to suffer the legal, financial and whatever other culpability involved with that decision.

And if you remove an RD from ultimate responsibility, who does that responsibility then fall upon?

An experienced and capable RD is ideally positioned to make a reasonable, rational and well-considered decision. They do so in races all the time. Sometimes that decision will involve consultation with medics, safety officers, police, emergency services, other race staff, etc. As an RD, that why it's wise to surround yourself with intelligent people, experienced in their specific roles.

No sensible RD is going to cancel an event for a 1 metre reef shark.

 

yeah I get what you're saying.

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5 hours ago, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

Where is this flat windless utopia you speak of?.... Please take us to the promise land.... LOL 

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9 hours ago, Blacky said:

So you are worried about sharks and think moving the race to Albany is a good idea ? 

Just trying to be supportive of the race staying in the west. 

We can always just bang on about moving it to Geelong, the home of triathlon in Australia. No sharks there. Only garfish and whiting. A cool water west suit swim and windy bike course guaranteed to keep AP away. At least that will make Pete happy.

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1 hour ago, Greyman said:

Just trying to be supportive of the race staying in the west. 

We can always just bang on about moving it to Geelong, the home of triathlon in Australia. No sharks there. Only garfish and whiting. A cool water west suit swim and windy bike course guaranteed to keep AP away. At least that will make Pete happy.

And Chuckie 

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Did an OD race with the swim in a pool last year. 6 swimmers in each lane x 8. Seemed to hit traffic every 100m but wouldn't recommend for IM distance.

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I did a 3 Day IM with the swim in a 25m pool. Luckily only a few of us so we had a lane each, but it's a nightmare swimming flat-out for 3.8km and having to turn every 20 seconds.

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On 20/04/2018 at 12:48 PM, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

They should do one in Melbourne, not many sharks in Frankston....

 

There's plenty of inland lakes where they could run them in regional locations. How good would an IM be in lake Eildon, bike course around there would be very very honest. 

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1 hour ago, stone said:

They should do one in Melbourne, not many sharks in Frankston....

 

There's plenty of inland lakes where they could run them in regional locations. How good would an IM be in lake Eildon, bike course around there would be very very honest. 

Geelong or Albury 

albury is better as Sydney people can drive there. Geelong is slightly too far. 

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