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Is Ironman Busso Doomed?

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4 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

Lake Leschenaultia? That would be a hilly bike ride and a trail run? 

With Challenge Wanaka no longer a full, need one of these

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Albany is a beautiful spot, they have a half there that has never really taken off, but if it was marketed correctly it would be awesome. They could do the bike route down Frenchman's bay road, a very scenic coastal road, devoid of traffic with a few hills. The water in Middleton beach is normally crystal clear and there is a 10km bike path running parallel to the beach. The only issue with the half is the bike route, it goes up this shitty old country road which has more traffic than the coastal route.  I got the impression they got little support from TWA/Trievents, similarly with other smaller races. 

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7 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Back in the 80's Lake Leschenaultia was the season opener. @#$% the water was cold.

Perfect justification for a wetsuit 

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4 hours ago, zed said:

Albany is a beautiful spot, they have a half there that has never really taken off, but if it was marketed correctly it would be awesome. They could do the bike route down Frenchman's bay road, a very scenic coastal road, devoid of traffic with a few hills. The water in Middleton beach is normally crystal clear and there is a 10km bike path running parallel to the beach. The only issue with the half is the bike route, it goes up this shitty old country road which has more traffic than the coastal route.  I got the impression they got little support from TWA/Trievents, similarly with other smaller races. 

4:45 drive. 

Sounds reasonable. 

 

What does @Tritrx think? 

 

*I think that's the TWA guys user name is 🤔

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Zed, I thought the same about Albany when I passed thru there on a motorbike trip 18 months ago. We spent a few days exploring the surrounding area and my impression was that it would be a great spot for a race. Only draw back was accessibility by air, rail and road. 

That coastal road would be a sensational ride on a fine day. 

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17 hours ago, zed said:

Hopefully this is indicative of how we manage human/shark interactions in the future.

I do like how the article obfuscates and uses euphemisms to avoid mentioning the S word for as long as possible.

Thanks for the link.

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Its great to see them reacting and making changes - but this doesn't appear to be any kind of deterrent to 'shark like' species. It seems like its going along the helicopter and drone line that its making it even easier to detect sharks in the area, which has led to the increase in cancellations.

From a business point of view, the organisers have to do everything possible to stop the possibility of a shark attack, for sponsorship/entries/insurance reasons, regardless of if some people on here decide they would 'take the risk'. 


The real advancements will come off the responses to the information that this clever bouy will deliver.

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So you are worried about sharks and think moving the race to Albany is a good idea ? 

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2 hours ago, The new guy said:

Its great to see them reacting and making changes - but this doesn't appear to be any kind of deterrent to 'shark like' species. It seems like its going along the helicopter and drone line that its making it even easier to detect sharks in the area, which has led to the increase in cancellations.

From a business point of view, the organisers have to do everything possible to stop the possibility of a shark attack, for sponsorship/entries/insurance reasons, regardless of if some people on here decide they would 'take the risk'. 


The real advancements will come off the responses to the information that this clever bouy will deliver.

My thoughts exactly.  We don't want to search for sharks, because we're going to find them. Get rid of the helicopter, drones and any other technology that actually detects sharks. 

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6 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

Alice Springs 70.3

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36 minutes ago, zed said:

My thoughts exactly.  We don't want to search for sharks, because we're going to find them. Get rid of the helicopter, drones and any other technology that actually detects sharks. 

But that will never actually happen.  Now there is a precedence for shark sightings at these events, insurers will put demands in place to have systems like this for detection in place.

If I was a sponsor looking to promote via Ironman, specifically Busso, I would be asking big questions about what systems were in place for shark issues before I signed up. If the answer was - 'we got rid of the detection systems, because if we dont know the sharks are there we will be ok' then I would be running for the hills.

No insurer or sponsor wants to be exposed to potential issues like that. The issue has now been raised loud and clear after Busso/Rotto/Margret River cancellations.

 

So now that the detection systems are in place, the results need to be acted upon correctly - once a shark is detected on this clever bouy, what happens?

- a fleet of RIBs converge on the area to drive the shark away from the event area

-underwater alarms sound to distract/remove shark form area

-start waves delayed until area clear

etc etc

 

Detection systems are a reality now, the reaction to the detection is the next key step to be taken.

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So true from The New Guy.

As athletes, so many of us only look at it these issues from the competitors' perspective.

A race organiser has to satisfy the often conflicting and competing demands of insurers and risk management, sanctioning authorities, police, councils, land holders, sponsors, medical and safety services, and numerous other stake holders.

The number of times over the years I've heard well-meaning athletes say "Why don't you.....?", assuming it's a novel suggestion and not something that hasn't been long since considered, explored and thrown in the large and overflowing basket of useless ideas.

Occasionally, you do get a really good suggestion, often more a refinement or an update. Most of those come from those who are athletes and race organisers themselves, or those who worked or volunteered with the race and have a good understanding of the logistics.

Edited by Paul Every
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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

So true from The New Guy.

As athletes, so many of us only look at it these issues from the competitors' perspective.

A race organiser has to satisfy the often conflicting and competing demands of insurers and risk management, sanctioning authorities, police, councils, land holders, sponsors, medical and safety services, and numerous other stake holders.

 

But where is the risk management or risk analysis. 1 shark attack in 40+ years of OWS and triathlon and that wasn't even fatal. 0.0000001% chance of getting attacked by a shark during a race. The race director is the last person who should be making the call on whether to can the swim, because if there is an attack he goes to jail. A 1m reef shark rocks up, he's going to be jumping up and down pulling swimmers out the water, because his life is on the line. It's impossible for him to make an objective, practical and sensible decision. He's got everything to lose.  All I expect is sensible decision making. We had an OWS cancelled because a 5m Great White was gnawing on a marker buoy - I have no problem with that decision. If RDs are going to do risk analysis do it properly. Hillarys sprint is a classic example, 2 years on the trot we had wet, windy weather. 5 people were hospitalised after coming off the bike at a notorious bike, the swim was cut short because it wasn't safe(?) you either cancel it or don't. Irrespectively no-one drowned or needed rescuing. The following year, similar conditions, swim got cancelled, bike went ahead, same deal more people came off the bike and were hospitalised. Taking my competitors hat off, that makes no sense at all, especially when round the corner 8/9 year olds were competing in surf life saving races. 

Let the RD make the call, but remove him from any culpability if something goes wrong.

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49 minutes ago, zed said:

But where is the risk management or risk analysis. 1 shark attack in 40+ years of OWS and triathlon and that wasn't even fatal. 0.0000001% chance of getting attacked by a shark during a race. The race director is the last person who should be making the call on whether to can the swim, because if there is an attack he goes to jail. A 1m reef shark rocks up, he's going to be jumping up and down pulling swimmers out the water, because his life is on the line. It's impossible for him to make an objective, practical and sensible decision. He's got everything to lose.  All I expect is sensible decision making. We had an OWS cancelled because a 5m Great White was gnawing on a marker buoy - I have no problem with that decision. If RDs are going to do risk analysis do it properly. Hillarys sprint is a classic example, 2 years on the trot we had wet, windy weather. 5 people were hospitalised after coming off the bike at a notorious bike, the swim was cut short because it wasn't safe(?) you either cancel it or don't. Irrespectively no-one drowned or needed rescuing. The following year, similar conditions, swim got cancelled, bike went ahead, same deal more people came off the bike and were hospitalised. Taking my competitors hat off, that makes no sense at all, especially when round the corner 8/9 year olds were competing in surf life saving races. 

Let the RD make the call, but remove him from any culpability if something goes wrong.

I'm not going to defend every decision made by every RD, especially in hypothetical cases. I wasn't there, let alone involved in the decision making processes.

What I am saying that as an RD, the decisions are more complex than most athletes realise.

I became an RD after close to a quarter of century of competing. At the time I had raced hundreds of tris, well over 100 ultras, not sure how many marathons, halves, shorter races, been on committees of running clubs and associations, national selector......but being an RD was still a learning experience involving far more than I anticipated.

You ask where is the risk management? Events don't even get insured, obtain police approval, council approvals without comprehensive Risk Management Plans.

Risk management analysis considers not only frequency of an event occurring, but also the worst possible consequences should that event occur. eg bike crashes on a slippery road may score lower on an analysis than a shark bite, despite the former being way more likely.

An RD should be involved in such decisions, precisely because it is his/her livelihood/future on the line because the race is their responsibility. It's patently unreasonable to suggest that someone else should be able to make a negligent decision and an RD has to suffer the legal, financial and whatever other culpability involved with that decision.

And if you remove an RD from ultimate responsibility, who does that responsibility then fall upon?

An experienced and capable RD is ideally positioned to make a reasonable, rational and well-considered decision. They do so in races all the time. Sometimes that decision will involve consultation with medics, safety officers, police, emergency services, other race staff, etc. As an RD, that why it's wise to surround yourself with intelligent people, experienced in their specific roles.

No sensible RD is going to cancel an event for a 1 metre reef shark.

 

Edited by Paul Every

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1 hour ago, Paul Every said:

I'm not going to defend every decision made by every RD, especially in hypothetical cases. I wasn't there, let alone involved in the decision making processes.

What I am saying that as an RD, the decisions are more complex than most athletes realise.

I became an RD after close to a quarter of century of competing. At the time I had raced hundreds of tris, well over 100 ultras, not sure how many marathons, halves, shorter races, been on committees of running clubs and associations, national selector......but being an RD was still a learning experience involving far more than I anticipated.

You ask where is the risk management? Events don't even get insured, obtain police approval, council approvals without comprehensive Risk Management Plans.

Risk management analysis considers not only frequency of an event occurring, but also the worst possible consequences should that event occur. eg bike crashes on a slippery road may score lower on an analysis than a shark bite, despite the former being way more likely.

An RD should be involved in such decisions, precisely because it is his/her livelihood/future on the line because the race is their responsibility. It's patently unreasonable to suggest that someone else should be able to make a negligent decision and an RD has to suffer the legal, financial and whatever other culpability involved with that decision.

And if you remove an RD from ultimate responsibility, who does that responsibility then fall upon?

An experienced and capable RD is ideally positioned to make a reasonable, rational and well-considered decision. They do so in races all the time. Sometimes that decision will involve consultation with medics, safety officers, police, emergency services, other race staff, etc. As an RD, that why it's wise to surround yourself with intelligent people, experienced in their specific roles.

No sensible RD is going to cancel an event for a 1 metre reef shark.

 

yeah I get what you're saying.

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5 hours ago, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

Where is this flat windless utopia you speak of?.... Please take us to the promise land.... LOL 

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9 hours ago, Blacky said:

So you are worried about sharks and think moving the race to Albany is a good idea ? 

Just trying to be supportive of the race staying in the west. 

We can always just bang on about moving it to Geelong, the home of triathlon in Australia. No sharks there. Only garfish and whiting. A cool water west suit swim and windy bike course guaranteed to keep AP away. At least that will make Pete happy.

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1 hour ago, Greyman said:

Just trying to be supportive of the race staying in the west. 

We can always just bang on about moving it to Geelong, the home of triathlon in Australia. No sharks there. Only garfish and whiting. A cool water west suit swim and windy bike course guaranteed to keep AP away. At least that will make Pete happy.

And Chuckie 

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Did an OD race with the swim in a pool last year. 6 swimmers in each lane x 8. Seemed to hit traffic every 100m but wouldn't recommend for IM distance.

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I did a 3 Day IM with the swim in a 25m pool. Luckily only a few of us so we had a lane each, but it's a nightmare swimming flat-out for 3.8km and having to turn every 20 seconds.

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On 20/04/2018 at 12:48 PM, Bored@work said:

I t hink it's time all the races in Aus moved to a new location.

They should do one in Melbourne, not many sharks in Frankston....

 

There's plenty of inland lakes where they could run them in regional locations. How good would an IM be in lake Eildon, bike course around there would be very very honest. 

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1 hour ago, stone said:

They should do one in Melbourne, not many sharks in Frankston....

 

There's plenty of inland lakes where they could run them in regional locations. How good would an IM be in lake Eildon, bike course around there would be very very honest. 

Geelong or Albury 

albury is better as Sydney people can drive there. Geelong is slightly too far. 

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1 hour ago, Peter said:

Geelong is slightly too far. 

Geelong is a hell of alot closer to Melbourne than Sydney is to Port Mac, and plenty of people still make the trip to Port Mac.

The distance is not the issue, it's finding a spot that is willing to welcome in the race.  Shepparton did well for years with this, the distance was never an issue.  RDs need to find the right forward thinking community and make the race an event again and it will have longer term success than any capital city one.

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10 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

Geelong is a hell of alot closer to Melbourne than Sydney is to Port Mac, and plenty of people still make the trip to Port Mac.

The distance is not the issue, it's finding a spot that is willing to welcome in the race.  Shepparton did well for years with this, the distance was never an issue.  RDs need to find the right forward thinking community and make the race an event again and it will have longer term success than any capital city one.

This is why triathlon has been so successful at Busselton. The council recognizes the financial benefits of having Busso 70.3 and IMWA. For the most part the locals have also embraced the races.

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22 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

This is why triathlon has been so successful at Busselton. The council recognizes the financial benefits of having Busso 70.3 and IMWA. For the most part the locals have also embraced the races.

yeah I agree. Apparently there are some locals who don't want the ironman, but they are a very small minority. I spoke to the council and they basically reiterated that overwhelmingly the majority of residents want the Ironman there.

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Its interesting that all Xadventure swims went ahead this weekend at Dunsborough which is in the same bay as Busso.  Storms were forecasted and the ocean was rough. We had similar maybe less safety on the water and a quick sweep from the westpac helicopter. There was a change in course to keep it closer to the beach which they said was due to strong winds. Perhaps its true that triathlon caters for the weakest link (swimmer) whilst adventure racing says "toughen up this is safe but its not going to be easy". PS it was also heaps of fun!

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Perhaps the water being rough helps as you can't see the sharks. The "problem" in Busso is that the water is crystal clear so you can see the sharks all the way from the shore to the end of the jetty.

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On 21/04/2018 at 9:17 PM, Peter said:

Geelong or Albury 

albury is better as Sydney people can drive there. Geelong is slightly too far. 

Not true, I live in Sydney (on the north side), I can’t even be arsed to drive to do a Kurnell race...... and training wise, you can’t pay to drive somewhere to start a ride.

I make 2 exceptions....... Nepean and Port. Probably whi I only race twice a year.

 

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Also the first thing about having an Ironman in a certain location is; can that location accommodate an extra 2000 people.

Many places cannot.

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9 hours ago, IronmanFoz said:

Also the first thing about having an Ironman in a certain location is; can that location accommodate an extra 2000 people.

Many places cannot.

BS.  Coffs Harbour could.  Newcastle could. Yamba can.  There are heaps of places that could.  It's just that those places are already killing it tourist wise and don't need to pay Ironman $400K to run a race there.

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Busso is still the location of choice. 

If the race has to move, Geelong is still the ideal location followed by Albury. There's no use putting a second ironman on the north coast of NSW. The south coast, however, is probably the place to try. Not Nowra, Callala or Batemans Bay. They've all been tried. Places like Eden, Bega or Merrimbula could be the sleeping giant for a long course event. I know in the past they've had sprint races there, but a bit of imagination in course design could come up with something a bit different.

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13 hours ago, Greyman said:

Busso is still the location of choice. 

If the race has to move, Geelong is still the ideal location followed by Albury. There's no use putting a second ironman on the north coast of NSW. The south coast, however, is probably the place to try. Not Nowra, Callala or Batemans Bay. They've all been tried. Places like Eden, Bega or Merrimbula could be the sleeping giant for a long course event. I know in the past they've had sprint races there, but a bit of imagination in course design could come up with something a bit different.

Bermagui? 

Accommodation not far away in Bega etc 

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52 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Bermagui? 

Accommodation not far away in Bega etc 

Great fishing too.

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5 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Great fishing too.

And crumbed flat head tails and schooners on the grass at the foreshore 😁😎👌

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Numbers seem to be down, at least for my AG. 150 compared to 200 last year. 

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1 hour ago, zed said:

Numbers seem to be down, at least for my AG. 150 compared to 200 last year. 

For the half? 

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28 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

For the half? 

yeah the half. 

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16 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

I might enter. With low numbers there is a good chance to get a kona spot

I was going to say something like "You have to learn to swim faster before you'll KQ", then I remembered, this is Busso. :)

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One 2.5m shark at Smiths Beach and 3 x 2.5m sharks off Prevelly yesterday..

22 shark sitings in 10 days... 

 

BAC76A87-7BC3-4E32-B86C-2C17AD751C54.jpeg

image.jpg

Edited by beginnergirl

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I'm not feeling positive about next weekend....  I hope the RD has his shit together.

Edited by zed

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This whole shark/dangerous swimming course shmozzel has killed my Ironman fan boy vibe. Along with the blaringly obvious cost chasm that confronts me. 

 

I think I will be just doing s/b/r for fun and getting really fit for personal satisfaction. Vanity and mental health are quite important issues to me, to be honest. 

 

Yes. I said that I would like to go 10:00:xx 

GE called me out. 

I've been in a spin since then. 

 

Truth hurts. But in this case the truth helps and hurts. 

 

Cheers all. 

Good luck with your races etc. I'm officially retired. 

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10 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

This whole shark/dangerous swimming course shmozzel has killed my Ironman fan boy vibe. Along with the blaringly obvious cost chasm that confronts me. 

 

I think I will be just doing s/b/r for fun and getting really fit for personal satisfaction. Vanity and mental health are quite important issues to me, to be honest. 

 

Yes. I said that I would like to go 10:00:xx 

GE called me out. 

I've been in a spin since then. 

 

Truth hurts. But in this case the truth helps and hurts. 

 

Cheers all. 

Good luck with your races etc. I'm officially retired. 

I cant find the thread but my reading of Ge's comment was that your goal of 10hrs was a good "stretch" goal but you should have some interim steps to get there... like if in some parallel universe I decide I am going to run a 17 min 5 km, I would probably aim for a 21 first, then a 20, then 19 etc etc...

Taking a longer term view will also allow you to squirrel away a few bucks here and there (from having fewer KFC binges) to pay the eventual IM entry fee...

Dont give up, you are a long time retired, just ask John Farnham

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The RD doesn't make the decision to cancel, shorten,or whatever the swim.

He is part of the group who discuss the issue, if there is one, and the final decision is made by the contracted water safety people which is Surf Life Saving.

No RD will ever go against there recommendation as if it went to shit and ended up in court he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Next Weekend there will be no Shark Issues.

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