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Ironnerd

Australian marathon record for men hasn't been broken since 1986

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Elite marathon times for men in Australia are slower now than they were in the 70's and 80's.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-14/australian-male-elite-marathon-runners-are-getting-slower/9653760

 

I still remember the excitement of watching Robert de Castella win the marathon at the Brisbane Comm Games in 82.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-14/robert-de-castella-wins-gold-at-brisbane-commonwealth-games/9566830

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It's because they use technology now.  There be way faster if the ditched their Garmins and just did more glute work.

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Wonder why?  With everything at their disposal today they should be faster.  

Yeah everyone wants to say the technology thing.  But are todays runners being held back due to technolgy and sports science.   

Like Cricketers and injuries.  Bowlers are more injured now with sports science monitoring and reducing workload at training.   

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21 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

 

Like Cricketers and injuries.  Bowlers are more injured now with sports science monitoring and reducing workload at training.   

Bit more cricket on now compared to 20-30 years ago!

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1 hour ago, Ironnerd said:

Elite marathon times for men in Australia are slower now than they were in the 70's and 80's.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-14/australian-male-elite-marathon-runners-are-getting-slower/9653760

 

I still remember the excitement of watching Robert de Castella win the marathon at the Brisbane Comm Games in 82.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-14/robert-de-castella-wins-gold-at-brisbane-commonwealth-games/9566830

Good read. Female marathon running is looking good with Trengove, Milly Clark and a few others. Lisa Weightman has the fastest Australian time for years in London last year but she will be retiring soon.

comm games marathon should be good tomorrow 

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18 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Bit more cricket on now compared to 20-30 years ago!

Courtney Walsh played consective summers.  County cricket and international cricket.  Rarely injured. 

They play revised cricket now.  Actually reckon they play less, test players played shield cricket in between tests they dont now.  

On tours they play 1-2 tour matches when they use to play up to a dozen.

Today cricketers want to look good not be match strong

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You mean back in the old days when fast bowlers were generally required to be about as athletic in the field as a duck?  Back when the only time they were active was when they had the ball in hand?  Back when they used to play 2, maybe 3 test series a year and later on a couple of round-robin one day tournaments?  Seems like a fair comparison.

But I'm confused.  Is it the athletes wanting to look good (and presumably ignoring all the experts) or the over-complication and misguided direction of the experts?

Maybe Deek and Mona were just outliers for the sport in Australia?  What were their local peers doing at the same time?  Where did the #2-10 in Australia stand compared to the rest of the world versus what they do now?  That will tell you more about whether there is a real issue than chasing records which are, by their very nature, outliers.

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.... back when marathon was tough!

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23 minutes ago, Stikman said:

You mean back in the old days when fast bowlers were generally required to be about as athletic in the field as a duck?  Back when the only time they were active was when they had the ball in hand?  Back when they used to play 2, maybe 3 test series a year and later on a couple of round-robin one day tournaments?  Seems like a fair comparison.

But I'm confused.  Is it the athletes wanting to look good (and presumably ignoring all the experts) or the over-complication and misguided direction of the experts?

Maybe Deek and Mona were just outliers for the sport in Australia?  What were their local peers doing at the same time?  Where did the #2-10 in Australia stand compared to the rest of the world versus what they do now?  That will tell you more about whether there is a real issue than chasing records which are, by their very nature, outliers.

As far as i am concerned i am better off just not having an opinion because I will get swamped by the sheep on here

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If your opinion is backed by reason and facts then it would be both informative and welcome.  When it seems to be full of vague assumptions and confirmation bias then it's going to be questioned.  When that happens to me I use it as an opportunity to question what I think I know, apply some critical thinking and learn more.  I don't take it as a question of my personal worth.  Others retreat to a safe space where they can maintain their beliefs and learn nothing.  It's an entirely personal choice.

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It's not just the fastest times getting slower, the depth of times has dropped significantly since the 80's and 90's, that is, the number of people running sub-2:20/2:30/2:40hr. Look back at the results from Gold Coast marathon from that era.

The reasons are multi-factorial, but in the last year or two I think there is slight resurgence of people running sub-2:20, and inspiring others to strive for the other. And just a rising tide lifts all boats, there is greater chance of this further inspiring someone to break through to sub-2:10. I think the likelihood of this happening in the next few years is greater than over the last 5-10 years.

Re, women...as Aidan said, they are on a good trajectory at the moment. Celia Sullohern will be the next star in that field, although I thought the same of Milly Clark in 2015 but she has fizzled a bit recently.

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2 hours ago, CEM said:

Re, women...as Aidan said, they are on a good trajectory at the moment. Celia Sullohern will be the next star in that field, although I thought the same of Milly Clark in 2015 but she has fizzled a bit recently.

Wasn't Clark the fastest in Rio?  And she's been injured, right?

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Maybe our best have been running 5000m instead for longer and not moving up. How do 5000m times compare?

 

On the age group front one of my mates feels that the drop in standard happened with the switch from imperial to metric.

Running a hundred in a week got a lot easier. Chasing round numbers got easier. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BogFrog said:

Wasn't Clark the fastest in Rio?  And she's been injured, right?

She has only had three marathons I think

Amsterdam (2.29)

Rio 2016 Olympics (18th), and

London 2017 worlds where she was 23rd but her slowest marathon (2.35)

She still has plenty of time! 

 

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Just to add to the topic I was talking to a mate the other week who is a swim coach from a while back and look at the women’s 800m

not sure of the years but I think 93ish was the last change prior to that good old hard core women training  the house down from the 70,s and 80,s in nylon cozzies in pools with ropes and corks on them.

3 of them swam with Dick Cain who by the standards isn’t a coach because he doesn’t have a shiny bit of paper 😂

i put it down to to much technology and analysing and not enough hard work and mongrel .

I think they need to rebalance with the two systems 

But things might be changing soon

Janell Elford use to do 16x400 fly leaving on the 5min ! Then back up in the arvo! Legend!

Now her Daughter is coming up the ranks and being coached by her think she is just 16 and just clocked a 8 minute something time 

 

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She tells a classic story of one of these sessions , where she was begging Dick to let her do every second freestyle answer NO .. go 

then with tears in her goggles kept going then asking again and again and getting the same answer with 2 to go Dick said to her ok Janelle you can do the last 2 freestyle 

she pulled her goggles down and politely told him to F$&k off and kept going fly 

hahahaha 

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I can’t believe people are giving that old chestnut “old school hard work” vs “soft technology reliant bohobos” a run as the reason why marathon times are slower these days.

the analogy with swimmers does ‘hold water’ either. Outliers like Gould, Ford and Wickham aside the modern Australian swimmers are not only faster in their particular discipline but are far more competitive against the worlds best. Contra old school legends like Janelle Ellford: geez - 16 x 400M on 5 minutes is nothing special if you can do 400M on 4:40 at aerobic pace (which Ellford could do). That’s just a Tuesday morning warm up set for a distance swimmer. Shit, I used to do 16 x 600M on 6:20 as a forty year old hasbeen who never was when my aerobic 400M pace was 6minutes. Kris Kemp would do that set on 5 minutes. A far more legendary swim training story was the 8 x 800M set leaving on 9:30 minutes that Laurie Laurence set the Steve Holland squad back in about 1975. John Holt was swimming second in that lane. John was no slouch either - having finished fourth in the 1500 Olympic trials in 72 (which he would repeat in 76). John was literally blown away when coming up to the 700M turn on the 7th 800 Rep he was lapped by Holland. At the end of that rep John asked Laurence what time Holland did - Laurie just turned around the stop watch for John to see for himself - it was 9 seconds under the then 800M world record ...

I digress. The fact is that all those legendary ‘old school’ swimmers trained with coaching pioneers who were trailblazers in technology based training methods. It is also a fact that modern swimmers are just as hard as their predecessors. 

It is also a fact that Australia produced three male marathon outliers whose overlapping careers spanned three decades - circa 1970 to 2000. Derek Clayton and Deek where not just Australian Outliers, they set the standard on the world stage for decades as well. That has made the standard artificially high for those that followed. That is one factor.

The next factor is that as Mona wound down his marathon career at the Sydney olympics the Mottram generation were just taking off in the middle distances. Until then the 5000M & 10000M Australian times had languished since Ron Clark (who was himself an outlier). Middle distance running in Australia seemed to undergo a mini renaissance in the 2000s. At the same time Australian marathon performances fell off a cliff. Between 1968 and 2000 running 13:30 for 5000M was pretty guaranteed to get you on any Australian team. Andy Lloyd made a career out of running no faster than about 13:23 at any stage. Now the Australian record is under 13 minutes. Similarly the Australian record for 10000M languished for 40 odd years since Clark and it has broken multiple times since.

as CEM points out, its not just that the Australian best times have dropped off, but marathon times as slower than decades ago. Across the board I think that marathoning is not a big a deal as it was back in the halcyon days of the 1980s. There are too many options open for kids with a massive VO2 Max. Why would a young Jake Birtwhistle be interested in focusing on marathoning on a promise by some coach that he could be a 2:09 marathoner. Young Jake would look at the East Africans (Kenya alone has two hundred registered runners with a marathon time under 2:09) and realise that the benchmark to be any good these days is 2:03 and then remember he swam under 5minutes for 400M at the school cardinal and think “**** it, I’ll stick with this tricathelony thingy”. A young Richie Porte will think “geez I rode up Mount Wellington in 5 minutes on my BMX this morning. Frack marathoning as a joke. I’m going to the TDF baby”. Too many other options for the real talent these days. Plus the African intimidation factor.

But please spare me the softness, over reliance on technology argument. The Africans are as technology reliant as anyone these days. Modern runners are still as hard as the pioneers, just faster because of the combination of an increased talent pool and modern training techniques (which may or may not include PEDs).

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11 minutes ago, oldschool69#2 said:

She tells a classic story of one of these sessions , where she was begging Dick to let her do every second freestyle answer NO .. go 

then with tears in her goggles kept going then asking again and again and getting the same answer with 2 to go Dick said to her ok Janelle you can do the last 2 freestyle 

she pulled her goggles down and politely told him to F$&k off and kept going fly 

hahahaha 

Thats real coaching.  Challenging an athlete with mental application.  She doubted herself he then challenged the doubt and she wanted to prove herself. Online coaches and garmins cant do that.  

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49 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Thats real coaching.  Challenging an athlete with mental application.  She doubted herself he then challenged the doubt and she wanted to prove herself. Online coaches and garmins cant do that.  

get over yourself.

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Awesome coverage of the Comm's Games that will really make Marathon popular amongst budding elite runners.

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4 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Awesome coverage of the Comm's Games that will really make Marathon popular amongst budding elite runners.

What,  having the chance to run 40k in the stinking heat to collapse on the side of the road  and soil yourself.

hell yeah where do I sigh up :lol: 

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43 minutes ago, roxii said:

 

What,  having the chance to run 40k in the stinking heat to collapse on the side of the road  and soil yourself.

hell yeah where do I sigh up :lol: 

A beautiful thing

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What happened - I was working...

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1 hour ago, roxii said:

 

What,  having the chance to run 40k in the stinking heat to collapse on the side of the road  and soil yourself.

hell yeah where do I sigh up :lol: 

Well you did do 10 IM races back in the day Roxii. 

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34 minutes ago, goughy said:

What happened - I was working...

African in 3rd place wobbled & fell over a few times then pulled out at about 35km. Then with just over 2km to go, the Scott who was well over 2min in front did the same. He got up, tried to run on over the bridge. It looked horrible. He eventually collapsed again, looked like he hit his head on the metal rail of the bridge on one of his falls, and eventually just could not get up. Medical took what seemed a lifetime to get to him. 

The sun & heat was tearing them to pieces.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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Thanks Ex, just found the footage.  Didn't know about 3rd place though.  It looked awful, and jeeze took forever to actually help him!

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On a slight tangent...Tyler Butterfield ran 2:26 in the marathon this morning. Not bad!! 

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5 hours ago, CEM said:

On a slight tangent...Tyler Butterfield ran 2:26 in the marathon this morning. Not bad!! 

So Olympics tri, tour with slipstream chipotle/Garmin, Hawaii ironman n 226 comments games marathon on a hot hot day... Not bad

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Just now, Ruley said:

So Olympics tri, tour with slipstream chipotle/Garmin, Hawaii ironman n 226 comments games marathon on a hot hot day... Not bad

What does he do in his spare time? Cure Cancer?

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9 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

What does he do in his spare time? Cure Cancer?

being from Bermuda he probably helps people like pat rafter with their taxes

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Could there be a hint of PEDs in this somewhere? Not accusing anyone of anything - but could blood doping or other things assist a marathon time?

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4 hours ago, Pete said:

Could there be a hint of PEDs in this somewhere? Not accusing anyone of anything - but could blood doping or other things assist a marathon time?

Australians don't dope! Ball tamper yes, but doping no way.

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What happened to Deeks indigenous marathon project?. With aim of producing champion athletes.

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2 hours ago, Chuckie M said:

What happened to Deeks indigenous marathon project?. With aim of producing champion athletes.

I’m not sure that was the aim. The project is alive and well and some did Boston. 

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Has any Aussie broken 2:10 since Lee Troop ran a 2:09.49 at Lake Biwa in 2003?

Edited by Andrew #1

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So can any Australian be on that list, from any comp in the world or are there set parameters to get on?

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18 hours ago, Tyno said:

Hunt's 2:11 in Japan 2010 is closest since then.

http://athletics.com.au/Portals/56/Competition/Documents/ALLTIME 230218.pdf

(P 17)

Looking that up, Derek Clayton's 2:08.33 in 1969 is bloody impressive!

His record stood until Deek got him.

It was actually Alberto Salazar who broke Clayton's WR at NewYork in 1981, a few months before Deek ran Fukuoka. Salazar's time was about 5 seconds faster than Deek's and stood as the WR for three years until Welshman Steve Jones broke it in Chicago.

Salazar's NYC time was then later invalidated when the course was remeasured, so unfortunately Deek never had the honour and recognition of being the current WR holder. Sadly, in some ways, Deek's WR is retrospective acknowledgement.

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For some context on how good Deeks record is, Paul just mentioned Steve Jones breaking the Salazar/Deek record back in Chicago in about 1986 i think (2:07.31)....  Well that record stood for the Brits until last night when Mo Farah finally broke it.

So we aren't the only place that has seen these records stand for so long - it take an athlete of his generation to break these.  They aren't soft, despite it appearing so because a thousand Africans running faster.

If you go through the last 30 years of Australian distance running, only Craig Mottram's 5k/10k performances stack up to indicate him being capable of running sub 2:08... without late career injuries he could have given it a shake.

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